Pope attacks art vandalising Bible

Originally posted by Gemwolf
I wonder if the non-religious folks would have the same opinion if we changed "Bible" with "American Flag" in the above article?

Isn't flag burning an acceptable means of protest?

Originally posted by zorgon

Isn't flag burning an acceptable means of protest?

The question, in the context of this topic, would be if burning the flag could be considered art.

IMO... it isn't, even though the act is symbolic.

Well - I am not anti-Christian, I hate all Christianity, Judaism and Islam equally.

So - part of me wants to laugh at the outrage - on another level, it's not polite to piss on peoples beliefs even though they are sick, demented and wrong.

I'm 50-50 on this.

1) Get over it, the bible is the most printed book in the world, a few copies down the drain doesn't mean much.

2) On the other hand - sure - why get the crazies all worked up by pissing on their special book - what good can come from it?

Originally posted by masqua
The difference between Mondrian and this, though, is that he actually 'created' a work of vision. An example of that would be a banana skin nailed to a wall compared to a painting of a banana skin. One requires nothing but a banana while the other requires painterly skills. I LOVE Piet Mondrian's work, btw. His ability with the use of complimentary colour in juxtapositioned panels has penetrated ALL of my work since I was a 10 year old. I actually learned something from him.

To qualify what my dislike of the type of installation art is based upon, I would say that it requires no art whatsoever. In fact, it doesn't require and artist at all. It needs only an unscrupulous gallery owner with an idea. The message is simplistic and carries no 'deeper' meaning. It simply relies on shock value to ruffle conservative feathers much in the same way a T-shirt emblazoned with profanity would.

I've seen excellent installation work too. Don Bonham, a sculptor in NYC, has done some early work (60's) which focussed on topics relevant to today. An airtight glass case, in a vacuum, containing a diaspora of rotting fish on a beach was a testament to our neglect and pollution of rivers, oceans and lakes. I can respect that, because it took some work to produce.

Not all installation art is crap... but this one in Scotland is.

"The difference between Mondrian and this, though, is that he actually created a work of vision." "I would say that it requires no art whatsoever." "The message is simplistic and carries no 'deeper' meaning." Without consulting the responsible artists, are these not purely subjective statements?

I believe the installation referenced in the OP is a terrible attempt at art, poor in both concept and execution. I would not lend it more than a brief evaluation if it crossed my path in a gallery. But is this view to be taken as objective, as truth? Can anything in art, beyond formality? That is the point I am trying to make. Favored works of art hold value for you because of your own sensibilities, not because they are innately more valuable than other works. It is one thing to state your distaste for an item; it is quite another to question its very legitimacy. An accusation of that sort must be based on more than the observer's personal feelings.

Certainly, someone carelessly nailing a banana peel to a wall is not art. Why is it not art? Because the act was not motivated by any psychic need; it lacked intent, will, desire. The intent need not be complex, but it must be present. Without that clause, everything is art. The stack of paper on your desk is art; the dirty laundry in the hamper is art; the car parked down the street is art. "Art" becomes a meaningless term.

For me, the proper question here is, What was the artist's intent? She said that the purpose was to provide a place for marginalised people to "write themselves back into the Bible", a book she felt facilitated their alienation. I have no reason to accuse her of lying, so I take her at her word. This is will; this is intent. Neither is enough to ensure a well-received work, but even bad art is art. It's personal value to me or you has no effect upon its legitimate status.

Originally posted by nasdack24k
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

Actually, the purpose of art is not to make any sort of statement, as that would give the piece utilitarian value. Art, strictly speaking, exists solely for its intrinsic value. It exists for the sake of its existence.

A scrawled out bible is utilitarian in that it has a purpose other than simply to exist.

This is far from the accepted view of art, among both academics and the public. "Art for art's sake", art that is present "simply to exist" is an incredibly alien concept to most cultures. Not only that, but the particular variation you espouse is a distortion of the original movement, which sought not an absence of meaning but a release from the bonds of morality and (social, moral) conservatism. Followers desired freedom to express subversive, radical ideas; social activism was an important hallmark of this.
Those who began the movement wanted much more than for art to "simply exist". That idea is a rather new luxury for the West and, even so, is still subject to heavy criticism here at home. And for good reason--the history of art around the world shows that humans have always understood art to have meaning, from complex (expressive) to quotidian.

-----------------------

After reading through the comments, apparent misunderstandings need to be addressed.

Criticising an item from the standpoint of personal distaste or offense incurred is quite different from arguing that the item be removed, banned, destroyed, or its creator punished. The latter have been called for repeatedly in cases of artistic disputes, and it is with those that I disagree. It has nothing to do with propriety and everything to do with legality; this seems to be a line that blurs for many. It is clearly delineated in my own conscience. I understand that what I deem improper or vulgar does not become, by relation, unlawful.

I do not have a right to not be offended.

Originally posted by nunya13
I think that it's a new form of art.

The "artist" invited mainly gays and lesbians to "write themselves into the bible" because they feel that much of society and religion has turned it's back on them and have tried to make them feel as if they are less human than the majority of us.

Leo Tolstoy said two things about art

1) "Art is a human activity consisting in this, that one man consciously, by means of certain external signs, hands on to others feelings he has lived through, and that other people are infected by these feelings and also experience them."

2) "what makes something art or not is how it is experienced by its audience, not by the intention of its creator."

So no, if you agree with Tolstoy it's absolutely not a new form of art whatsoever.

The problem is most people look at art from an aesthetical point of view, they feel it has to be a painting or a sculpture.

This is incorrect.

Art can take many forms, just like some paintings can be abstract art, the definition of art itself can be abstract.

But I would disagree that this is a new form of art.

I don't think this art exhibition was a bad idea, really the people could write whatever they wanted (express their opinions or whatever else they wanted to do) and it's only those that seriously wanted to express their anger in it that make it seem so bad. But really, what is wrong with that? Would you rather they express their anger in a different and perhaps more violent way? And it isn't like it was encouraged to write offensive stuff in it, that's just how some people are and if the pope gets mad because a few people expressed their anger in a bible, that is pitiful.

Originally posted by newworld
Can the pope be any more hypocritical? He should think of this as payback for the book burnings and witch huntings of the past. Sure he was not involved in those incidents but the church he rules over did and he would not be sitting in his little throne if it had not been for that.

Anyway, it's just a book. People should not make a big deal over it. Just because people decide to die over a certain belief system does not mean others should respect it. Heck, books written by atheists and small sects have a bad tendency of getting burned by a few catholics once in a while.

Now I do find this kind of sad, because as a literature student defacing ANY book is disrespectful. However those who complain over this should be happy that these defacers are venting their anger out on a book rather than on other people.

Bad taste? definitely. but as some people believe, what goes around comes around.

Why You generalise??? It seems tha the Protestants were quite active concerning the witch hunting...
Catholics of today are in overwhelming mayority quaiet people and, for sure have nothing to do with that bloodthirsty monsters lurking on the pages of protestant propaganda...
You think that destroing the Bible is OK??? what about so called good manners- there are milions of good people who never done no harm to anybody who feel sad, and offended seing those pseudoartists at work.
Go to Saudi Arabia and try the same with Koran...and you survive or not many will celebrate you as the real Freedom of Expresion Martyr )

[edit on 28-7-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]

[edit on 28-7-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]

I must admit if it was the last pope who said this I would be alot more sympathetic (he seemed like a decent guy) but this pope has had a tendancy to preach from a very low moral ground. He even went as far as accusing feminism of causing this recession? A pope who told africans that condoms could in fact spread aids which could have led to even more infections? What kind of holy man would put his followers into more danger? A pope who, before becoming pope.. had (alledgedly) sent a memo out about how to handle (cover up) child rape allegations? Sacred and morality? he doesn't know the meaning of the words.

He obviously holds very little respect for the rights and liberties of other groups so why is he demanding more than he's willing to give himself?

I understand why average chistians might be offended by this.. but he's had no probs offending others in the past.

Originally posted by ZenOnKwalsky

Why You generalise??? It seems tha the Protestants were quite active concerning the witch hunting...
Catholics of today are in overwhelming mayority quaiet people and, for sure have nothing to do with that bloodthirsty monsters lurking on the pages of protestant propaganda...
You think that destroing the Bible is OK??? what about so called good manners- there are milions of good people who never done no harm to anybody who feel sad, and offended seing those pseudoartists at work.
Go to Saudi Arabia and try the same with Koran...and you survive or not many will celebrate you as the real Freedom of Expresion Martyr )

[edit on 28-7-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]

[edit on 28-7-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]

In my post i never said that destroying the bible is okay, since the destruction of any book is always a sad moment. However catholics should not make a huge deal and feel offended by these acts against their holy book. Isn't their fate stronger than that? why feel offended if the bible is the most printed book in existence?
Now you don't hear them complaining when other books are burned. In fact they sometimes participate in book defacing/burning. I did not generalize either, i said a few catholics, not all.

I understand if they feel offended if the original documents of the bible get defaced. but why get offended over the way someone decides to use his/her own copies of the bible? In fact, those who feel offended should be laughing because writing obscenities in a book will not accomplish much.

and you are right, maybe someone should test the waters with the Koran, but knowing how extremist many of the followers are then it really is not safe (at least not yet). Take that as a compliment, at least bible followers are not as extreme as they used to be.

I can see both sides stand point. I am muslim as most of u know. I would clearly be upset, if that was done to a bunch of qurans. At the same time this being america, if u purchased the book u should have the right to do with it what u wish. though i believe that what they are doing to the bible is indeed wrong. the way i see it. it is a attempt to slight those who strongly believe in the bible. I find it wrong and disgusting. even though i am not a christian, it comes down to respect of what others believe. i bet those poeple who were there defacing the bible knew the reaction they would get. i can also say there is no point in getting upset over stuff like this. people do stupid things to try to fit in, or to try to make a strong statment against something. no matter what god u believe in ive learned that allah (god) is more then capable of defending himself. no matter how many bibles they burn, no matter how many people trash islam. or jews etc... its not gna harm your faith in your god if u truly believe in him. nor is it gna harm your god in any way. dont give people like that the pleasure of ur upset reactions. just my 2 cents on it

Originally posted by cancerian42
I don't think this art exhibition was a bad idea, really the people could write whatever they wanted (express their opinions or whatever else they wanted to do)

Agreed, people were allowed to choose if they defaced it or if they left it alone. The exhibition obviously said a lot about how people felt toward the bible, free will and perception of symbology.

What if it wasnt a 'real' bible, maybe it was a copy of a bible, maybe some words were changed in it.

True freedoms comes from being able to look at the bible in question and say 'it doesnt matter'. If you are not able to say that you are not free.


Of course you can also choose to say 'it matters' and that speaks volumes also.

That is why art is so cool.

Originally posted by Killeonidas
Um,

Holy or Not its a just a book.

And if people want to kill people over defacing a book,


doesn't that go against the peace and harmony that is purportedly espoused by that book?

Art is love Love is Life

Yes it is just a book. A fictional book. A book that the vatican used to control it's people and used it's supposed meaning to kill people. Religion is a farce. And the pope? Ha! He's an idiot that knows religion is a farce!!!! And uses it for his own evil ways within the vatican!!!!!

Originally posted by Killeonidas
Um,

Holy or Not its a just a book.

And if people want to kill people over defacing a book,


doesn't that go against the peace and harmony that is purportedly espoused by that book?

Art is love Love is Life

Only if that was happening but it isn't, we are just sort of disgusted that things have gone so much in the direction that old book said it would go.

Your attempt at the straw man notwithstanding, yeah it does go against the peace it spoke about and also makes patent the vitriol of bigotry and hatred aimed at its believers while class distinctions are made giving protections to its attackers and ironically being called the hate crimes prevention act.

It said whoa to those who call good evil and evil good for in the last days man won't even know which is which and we all will have our own lil version of right and wrong as long as it tickles our ears and allows us to have our every form of depravity indulged and all under the protection of equal rights.

in spite of what you might think of the Bible, I doubt there would be an america today had it not been for that old book

Originally posted by stevcolx

Originally posted by Killeonidas
Um,

Holy or Not its a just a book.

And if people want to kill people over defacing a book,


doesn't that go against the peace and harmony that is purportedly espoused by that book?

Art is love Love is Life

Yes it is just a book. A fictional book. A book that the vatican used to control it's people and used it's supposed meaning to kill people. Religion is a farce. And the pope? Ha! He's an idiot that knows religion is a farce!!!! And uses it for his own evil ways within the vatican!!!!!

Care to show me what passages were used to justify all these horrors you're talking about.

Just so I know if it is really the book that is to blame or man.

If what you're saying is true I guess Charles manson had a point when he blamed the beatles for killing abigail folger, jay sebring and the rest for the messages that were in the song helter skelter. It was used to control them into killing

reply to post by jmacbeth


Thanks!!!! At least, even being not of christian faith You get the point. Another poster-one before seems to get it upside down. Thats why I proposed to do similar kind of "art" with Koran in Saudi Arabia or similar country-surely he will be dead in 5 minuts...Its not the best method to protect religion but if some "artists" have never learned good manners...What the point in offending the others creed??
Atacking Christianity is cheap now it takes not courage at all. And thats why they do it.

Peace

Originally posted by Wobbly Anomaly


Of course you can also choose to say 'it matters' and that speaks volumes also.

That is why art is so cool.

Yeah but this isn't art, it's liberal activism and a subsidized spit in the face to all Christians behind the guise of artistic self expression.

People like this, who ever it was that set up this thing,, I would like to show him some of my own artistic expression on his self and then take his wallet forcing him to pay for it, like the taxpayers are forced to pay for his. Like you say, that is why art is so cool

Originally posted by cancerian42
I don't think this art exhibition was a bad idea, really the people could write whatever they wanted (express their opinions or whatever else they wanted to do) and it's only those that seriously wanted to express their anger in it that make it seem so bad. But really, what is wrong with that? Would you rather they express their anger in a different and perhaps more violent way? And it isn't like it was encouraged to write offensive stuff in it, that's just how some people are and if the pope gets mad because a few people expressed their anger in a bible, that is pitiful.

It's not pitiful, to be angry to see so many people, act like idiots.

You have a problem with anger, you deal with it and act like an adult and if stabbing the bible because you want to blame god for your entire miserable life, then so be it, buy one of your own and do it at home but when you pay taxes so some moron who's taste in art is in his ass does it in public just to make Christsians angry while encouraging others to partake of this outward expression of bibliobigotry

that isn't art,

its' hate



[edit on 28-7-2009 by Cypher-X]

Originally posted by newworld

Take that as a compliment, at least bible followers are not as extreme as they used to be.

mmmm,, I don't know about that, I see a lot of Christians lately that have just about had enough of being called hater and bigot by just about anyone with an axe to grind while they keep suing to remove all religious symbolism even the very word "God" some act as if they are vampires and you spilled holy water on them for saying God Bless you after they sneeze. Many are looking to their religious counterparts the muslims and noticing one thing they all had to admit and I'm afraind seriously considering they emulate the same outrage because when muslims want something done or not done in the name of their religion,,,

They get r dun

Originally posted by Cypher-X

Originally posted by Wobbly Anomaly


Of course you can also choose to say 'it matters' and that speaks volumes also.

That is why art is so cool.

Yeah but this isn't art, it's liberal activism and a subsidized spit in the face to all Christians behind the guise of artistic self expression.

People like this, who ever it was that set up this thing,, I would like to show him some of my own artistic expression on his self and then take his wallet forcing him to pay for it, like the taxpayers are forced to pay for his. Like you say, that is why art is so cool

So you and most everyone else is complaining about someone else's beliefs that your beliefs degrade them? Am I missing something here?

Most of the people that are complaining and feel offended in this thread seem to be Christians. Christian beliefs have led to many people feeling degraded in our society--gays/lesbians, Muslims, feminists, etc. These groups are at fault for floods, hurricanes, societal degradation, 9/11 (apparently ALL said groups were responsible for 9/11 not just Muslims), the end of America as we know it, etc. But when these groups retaliate against the very belief system that has made them feel somehow left out and as if they looked at with disdain and disgust, the Christians cry foul?

It's Christian beliefs that led them to this in the first place.

If the religious would stop forcing their beliefs down other people's throats and maybe people won't feel compelled to make statements like these anymore.

So your poor book was "desecrated"? How does this really effect you and your beliefs? Did someone violate your civil rights?

Do you know how many things tax payers money goes towards that either the public has zero knowledge of or for purely political/religious agendas and you're worried that a piddly portion of that money went toward an exhibit (whether it was art or otherwise) that gave people a chance to speak out against those who they feel have done them injustice.

A couple of things written in the bible on exhibit:

‘This is all sexist pish, so disregard it all.’ A contributor wrote on the first page of Genesis: ‘I am Bi, Female & Proud. I want no god who is disappointed in this.’”

These are obviously comments made by people who are disenfranchised with Christianity. If the majority of Christians has practiced the REAL teaching of Christ, then this wouldn't have even happened.

Maybe those of you who are so appalled and flabbergasted and look at yourselves. Look at how your beliefs make others feel like they aren't wanted in this society and that others view them as somehow less than human, worthy of a firey torment in Hell for eternity.

Let he who is without sin...

quick edit: My tax money goes to support a war that results in the deaths of thousands of innocent bystanders. And you're worried about a book? Pieces of paper?





[edit on 28-7-2009 by nunya13]

Originally posted by tristar

Pope attacks art vandalising Bible

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Pope has condemned a ' disgusting' taxpayer-funded exhibition in which visitors are urged to deface the Bible.
Visitors were offered pens by gallery bosses so they could scrawl comments on the text - leading to a host of puerile and obscene remarks.

Pope Benedict XVI believes the stunt would not have been contemplated with a copy of the Koran.

(visit the link for the full news article)

edit: Extra Link : www.thenewamerican.com...

[edit on 28-7-2009 by tristar]

Off course they would not try this with the Koran....because crazy Christian Extremists are not going to blow themselves and others up in the name of a jihad for disrespecting the LORD.......They will just form some annoying group and show up at people's funerals......