You have every right in the world to whoop ya kid's..PLZ start I am sick of all the punk's

Originally posted by lellomackin

And what, you beat him for it?

No I would never BEAT my child. Your sad attempts to over exaggerate the situation by word play is really useless to the conversation and utterly transparent.

Is your idea of stopping the situation involve physical abuse? No, you yell STOP! Bravo. So, by your own words, no beating involved

And if you recall, I've been speaking about NEGATIVE RE-ENFORCEMENT in general and not swatting a butt exclusively.

And this obviously works so well. Been out in public around kids lately? They have the manors of a pack of hyena's.

Well yes, I have. I live in a major American city and I find that the ones that behave that way are either being punished, as you describe, or not being punished at all.

Did you take a survey?

I'm not suggesting a "go ahead do what you want" attitude. Punishment is essential, I just think it should never be physical.

So you are in favor of negative re-enforcement as a learning tool.

There's a huge difference between swatting your kid on the butt and getting a beating from a cop with a night stick and the fact that you don't understand the difference disturbs me.

The fact that you can assign justifiable excuses to physical abuse is disturbing to me.

And what is even more disturbing is that you are willing to twist words and take them out of context just so you can have your way.
I, at no time, anywhere, have suggested that physical abuse is an acceptable form of punishment with one exception. I believe that some parents need their butts beat because they've ruined their children's lives by FAILING them. Parents today, for the most part, are more worried about letting them be individuals and being buddies with their kids then being a parent.

In response to Lellomackin "Take away their freedom, ground them , take TV or games away, take away their books, whatever it is they REALLY want."

It doesn't work. They don't care.

Did you read what I wrote??

Yes I read what you wrote.

Find SOMETHING they care about. Are you saying nothing is more important to a child than fear of physical violence?? Really???

I'm saying that temporarily taking away their gameboy or whatever doesn't work. They know they'll be getting it back so they find something else to amuse them until the item's/priviledge's inevitable return.

In response to Lellomackin "Don't be so simple minded. Please"

I might suggest the same of you.

Seriously, that's the best you can do?

Are you saying that you're disappointed in my argument which is the same argument you used? This leads to the point that if you're disappointed in my intellect, you must be disappointed in yours even more. Sorry you have self esteem issues

You can't outsmart a four year old and you have to beat them?

I would never beat a child. You can keep pretending that is what I am suggesting but it doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't condone BEATING a child.

Don't go out of your way to prove my point.

What's even better is that I didn't have to go out of my way to prove MY point

Well when we have parents who get into their kids business a little to much, even will bully, tease, or harass thier kids piers and especially to the degree that the kid committed suicide.

For some reason my generation(people in their 30's) seems to think that it is ok to let you kids make their own decisions no matter what age. Let them do what they want. That is so wrong, and then we wonder why America is falling apart, because our next generations of Americans will be spoilled, thinking that they are always right and everhting should be handed to them. Isnt this what the gov't wants so they are more easily controlled?

Hell, they cant even lose a game anymore, because it will give them low self confidence/esteem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree completely.

I'm now at an age where I can see both sides of this arguement as played out by friends who have now teenage kids. The ones who used 'abused' thier kids with a spanking have got children who have respect for others, know that there are things that are not acceptable PERIOD.

The friends who where buddies to thier kids get to take time off work cuz the brat got suspended again for telling another teacher off, free trips to the hospital because the punk can't control his temper and ran into a bigger punk.

Is this across the board? Of course not. The fact is that it is the child who will decide how effective the parental approach is. Some children will listen to reason and act properly, most however will nod and smile and do whatever they want while the parents happily think they have done a good thing. Other kids can get physical descipline and still be nightmares.

Want an example? Jeffery Dahmer came from what in today's world is held to be a normal family and he still ended up with the remains of over a dozen people scattered around his home. Why? HE WAS A FREAK FROM BIRTH.

Some kids can be horrifically abused and become shinning examples to the world, other kids can be 'new aged' and turn out as sadistic animals. The biggest point in all of this is raise your child as you see fit, BUT RAISE YOUR CHILD. Don't plug them into video games or TV so you can rest on the couch, don't dump them on the school system and hope it all works out, DO YOUR JOB.

I know we live in a world where the parent(s) need to work long hours to make ends meet. At the end of the day we're tired and want to rest, take a load off. That's fine, get a cat. If you have a child it is your job to be a parent 24 hours a day, whether that's convienient or not. Your kid doesn't care that you just worked 17 hours for minimum wage, or that the proposal is due by Friday or whatever else it is that you do 9-5. When you are home with them, BE THERE WITH THEM. Kids want attention and if they can't get it one way they will find it another.

One final thought to those who feel that talking is the best and only approach: If I see you are being ravaged by a dog, do you want me to yell at it, or beat it off of you?

[edit on 28-7-2009 by [davinci]]

reply to post by Sheeple


People who have never been hit lack empathy?
Empath does not come from experience.
If a parent has done their job then he/she wouldn't need to punish the child in the first place. Only the weak incompetent parents use force to get things done.
My parents have never had the need to punish me for something.

One final thought to those who feel that talking is the best and only approach: If I see you are being ravaged by a dog, do you want me to yell at it, or beat it off of you?

How does that compare to a misbehaving child?

To those mentioning real life punishments for adults:
Grow up! Don't break the law!
You are an adult now and you should understand the world around you.

[edit on 28/7/2009 by DGFenrir]

[edit on 28/7/2009 by DGFenrir]

Originally posted by isa75
Well when we have parents who get into their kids business a little to much, even will bully, tease, or harass thier kids piers and especially to the degree that the kid committed suicide.

For some reason my generation(people in their 30's) seems to think that it is ok to let you kids make their own decisions no matter what age. Let them do what they want. That is so wrong, and then we wonder why America is falling apart, because our next generations of Americans will be spoilled, thinking that they are always right and everhting should be handed to them. Isnt this what the gov't wants so they are more easily controlled?

Hell, they cant even lose a game anymore, because it will give them low self confidence/esteem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Very good points !!!
Just to give you an example of how spoiled and coddled kids are now:
I own a construction company and am from time to time looking for employees. A number of kids 18-25 apply and last a day. I pay very well for general labor so it's not a money issue. I also don't work them very hard so it shouldn't be that but it IS. Kids have become so soft and spoiled that they don't even want to get their finger nails dirty.
Now I mostly hire guys from 35-45 as they work a lot harder.

reply to post by DGFenrir


It applies in every way imaginable really. If you talk to your child and they ignore you and continue the behavior regardless of your stern words, are you going to talk to them some more? And if they still ignore you? And still, and still?

Good luck with that.

Originally posted by [davinci]
reply to post by DGFenrir

 

It applies in every way imaginable really. If you talk to your child and they ignore you and continue the behavior regardless of your stern words, are you going to talk to them some more? And if they still ignore you? And still, and still?

Good luck with that.

*Slap forehead*
But the kid ignoring you already is your job left undone.
Kids don't get spoiled because of too much freedom. They get spoiled when the parent forgets to do their job. Raising your kid starts from the second he/she is born not from the moment your kid is brought home by a police car..

As you said yourself: You have to raise your child. The TV doesn't raise your child. The school doesn't (Maybe a little does). The parent does.
If you don't have time, patience, money or nerves for a child then don't get one.

Just in case:
My point here is that a child can be raised to be a good and a hard working person without ever punishing him for anything.
You do have the right to punish your child as you wish.
Unless you cross the line and send your kid to school with bruises..

[edit on 28/7/2009 by DGFenrir]

[edit on 28/7/2009 by DGFenrir]

reply to post by jfj123

Originally posted by BarryZuckercorn
When you're training a dog you don't hit the dog. Why? Because if you do you are radically increasing the likelihood that the dog will become violent later in life. Dog brains work very similarly to human brains. This being the case, why is it an unacceptable training method to strike a dog but a perfectly acceptable training method to strike a human? Please explain the difference to me.

Not to be pushy, but you've ignored my question. Please tell me how hitting a child to train them is different than hitting a dog to train it.

reply to post by DGFenrir


Thank you for proving my entire point: Parents need to raise thier children and do so in the manner they see fit barring true abuse.

Another question for you perhaps: How come in the savagely violent and primitive past prior to the the 1960's-70's the US had nowhere near the prison population, per capita, that they do today? If, as many are rabidly pointing out, violence begets violence and will only spiral out of control into chaos, why is it that only now, when kids are not given any fear of consequences or discpline, that prisons cannot be built fast enough?

I realise of course that the answer to this will have nothing what-so-ever to do with the topic at hand and only drive the debate further into the absurd. However the question does remain as to why the hugs-and-kisses approach championed for the last few decades has had no positive effect on the world we all live in. The original flower children are now responsible for some of the worst attrocities in the history of society and are actively trying to remove what little punishment there is for their actions.

Society advances faster than biology: We may live in a more enlightened world then our parents & grandparents but our brains are still wired the same.

Flame on.

[edit on 28-7-2009 by [davinci]]

Originally posted by BarryZuckercorn
reply to post by jfj123

 

Originally posted by BarryZuckercorn
When you're training a dog you don't hit the dog. Why? Because if you do you are radically increasing the likelihood that the dog will become violent later in life. Dog brains work very similarly to human brains. This being the case, why is it an unacceptable training method to strike a dog but a perfectly acceptable training method to strike a human? Please explain the difference to me.

Not to be pushy, but you've ignored my question. Please tell me how hitting a child to train them is different than hitting a dog to train it.

A swat on the behind for either is an attention getter only. You don't hit or beat for any reason. Why are you not getting this?

Would I swat my dog on the butt or my kid? Yes if the need arose. Evidently you don't understand reasonable approaches so let me make this clear.
I would NEVER beat, hit or abuse a child or any animal. Under the right circumstance, would I swat them on the butt? YES.

You're trying to make me out to be a child abuser by saying, "I ATTACK CHILDREN, or BEAT THEM, or HIT THEM" These words are a drastic escalation of what I'm referring to.

Sometimes you need to swat on the butt to get their attention so you can explain what they're doing wrong. How many times have I swatted my dog in 10 years? 2 times. And it didn't hurt at all. There was no physical pain at all and I wouldn't inflict pain onto a child or an animal.

Is this FINALLY clear enough for you to understand or are you going to continue deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying?
And
DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?

reply to post by TheAmused


Well you should work on your English.

but.

I was simply hit when I did something wrong. Spanked, yes. It never worked for me. I simply ignored it. If pain was the price to have fun, so be it. Nothing would keep me from sleighing down from the top of my stairs, down, and out the front door into the snow. Nothing stopped me from spraying water all over the outside stairs so I could sleigh them down. Nothing prevented me from blow torching wasps nests and paintball shooting at the birds. Nothing stopped me from cursing, punching my bullies, and being a crazy kid.

yes, I was a very very dangerous child and a bad kid. It was how I was as a child. And spankings or getting yelled at did nothing.

Then at age 13, it kind of just stopped suddenly. The need to destroy and cause havoc went away. I simply acted normally on my own regards. After spankings, belts, smacks to the face, and so much more, it was I who made myself calm.

Looking back, sure I deserved it. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't do it if I was there again.

I was raised by parents who I know to this day love me beyond question. I am in my mid-40s and I still respect my parents as any child should.

I was whipped when I deserved it...and I did enough at times to deserve every one I got. Back as a child it was not looked at as abuse by society...there were kids who were actually abused, I was disciplined. These days many kids are raised who need immediate gratification or they are not happy. There are not real consequences to their actions or disrespect because someone else [i.e. NOT their parents] can easily scream abuse at the drop of a hat.

These days ever kid has to play in every game, be it soccer or little league...every kid makes the team. Otherwise psychologist will fill your ear about how we have damaged "Johnny's" psyche.

We have a generation [or two] of whiny, self-involved, give-it-to-me-because-I-deserve-it kids who don't understand the concepts of work to get it or wait until you can.

I know not all kids/teens are like this. My son happens to be very grounded and takes nothing he has for granted. But I raised him to respect his parents, his grandparents, his teachers, his neighbors and to appreciate what he has because it can be gone in a minute.

People who cannot separate discipline from abuse and claim it only results in kids who grow up to be abusive are reaching and propogating a mindset that has resulted in a generation of wusses.

Our country is losing its backbone and making it too easy to bend over to the whims of those who whine the loudest.

Just my personal opinion.

Originally posted by jfj123
Is this FINALLY clear enough for you to understand or are you going to continue deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying?
And
DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION?

It seems like you have lost your temper. You seem to have learned to react with emotional violence when you become angry. Quite possibly this has to do with your conditioning, i.e. being spanked as a child. When you hit your child you are teaching them that any frustrating situation can be resolved through violence and aggression.

I and the others on this thread who are disagreeing with you are causing you frustration. As a result you are resorting to the digital equivalent of shouting; that's aggression. The next step, provided we continue to disagree, is for you to use some form of violence to shut us up.

No-one is misrepresenting you, either. You are advocating striking children as a form of punishment. It's irrelevant whether it's a light smack or a closed fist punch. Both actions are hitting your child.

For those who have been hit by another person. I'm very sorry. I think it's degrading and insulting and you didn't deserve to be treated that way.

If you come from a history of people who hit - may you be the first one strong enough to talk, rather than hit.

I am currently teaching year 7 and 8 music at a few different high schools in Australia. Let me just say I starred and flagged this thread purely because of the thread title. Please people discipline your kids thoroughly, maybe it's just that I cant remember how horrible I actually was in school or its the fact that kids today really are getting more nastier but I tell you, my job can be a nightmare at times!
Even though I teach a subject based on the arts with a lot of hands on practical work, listening, analyzing and research (all on topics they can choose), a lot of these young kids just CANNOT find anything to appreciate in music. It baffles me! The language, talk back and downright hostility I get just astounds me, and I'm a young 25 yo teacher, not some over the hill old nugget! I had a talk with my father this afternoon about the days when teachers could use the cain to punish unruly students. Let me just say it instantly brought a smile to my face! Boy I'd hit em good!

And just remember, if the beating doesn't work or becomes less effective then the solution is to beat them harder. We found that 10 spanks at a medium intensity only worked when they were 14 months old, by the age of 4 it took around 20 lashes at very hard intensity to get the correction solidified in place. If you are unsure how hard to correct, it is when the skin is red but not quite whelping, some blood but not much. Our little Jimmy is now perfectly obedient and on his way to being a wonderful young man. One thing is for sure, he'll NEVER go towards a light socket again, we used battery acid for that correction, highly recommended.

Hitting your kid just teaches the kid violence. I won't even hit my dogs.

I hated it when my parents hit me. It didn't teach me things, it just made me hurt and cry.

Originally posted by stovsa
I am currently teaching year 7 and 8 music at a few different high schools in Australia. Let me just say I starred and flagged this thread purely because of the thread title. Please people discipline your kids thoroughly, maybe it's just that I cant remember how horrible I actually was in school or its the fact that kids today really are getting more nastier but I tell you, my job can be a nightmare at times!
Even though I teach a subject based on the arts with a lot of hands on practical work, listening, analyzing and research (all on topics they can choose), a lot of these young kids just CANNOT find anything to appreciate in music. It baffles me! The language, talk back and downright hostility I get just astounds me, and I'm a young 25 yo teacher, not some over the hill old nugget! I had a talk with my father this afternoon about the days when teachers could use the cain to punish unruly students. Let me just say it instantly brought a smile to my face! Boy I'd hit em good!

You shouldn't be a teacher if you want to hit other peoples kids. You are a stranger to them and it isn't up to your authority.

That's like correctional officers hitting an inmate if they yelled at them.

I want people to see this from 2 sides, I'm a parent of a 9yr old girl, my wife and I love her to bits and we are devoted to her (that does not mean she's spoilt rotten!).

Both of us take a very active roll in her learning and her development, we want her to enjoy being a child and not be peer pushed towards being older than she is. We live on a council estate just outside of London and it's a rough estate, full of drug dealers and thugs, it's not the best growing up environment but we have to make do.

Most of the kids her age are smoking, drinking, do some form of drugs and basically are skanky rude children who are the spitting image of their parents in every way. We have NEVER had to hit our daughter, we just guide her with logic and kindness, we explain things. She never swears and thinks it's a bad thing, she's articulate and has good manners and most parents love her to bits but that's down to our work and her natural nature.

What I do see on the estate are kids who have been brought up as estate kids and have turned out to be thugs that in turn have kids and either leave them or bring them up as they were. When I was a kid if I gave my mum a bad mouthing I soon knew about it and it was never repeated, I wasn't beaten to a pulp but the smack HURT and the memory of that hurt made sure I didn't want another one, it taught me a word that's so miss used now ..RESPECT.

I get kids youths around here screaming about demanding RESPECT, I'm well known for standing my ground and I tell them that you earn respect, not the other way around. Thankfully I've convinced some of my neighbours to help me rid our blocks of dealers and problem gangs who used to destroy the blocks, I've done it thru standing up to them and then talking to them and guess what, these same teenagers now chat to me, ask about things and have a begrudging respect for me because I gave them some boundaries.

Sadly there are those for whom that is too much to ask and I feel a little smack as a kid might have introduced the same respect for others that it did in me. The trouble I see are extremes, a lot of these parents are ill educated and were as bad themselves so a smack becomes a beating and then the child loses respect for the parent and just fears them, if you beat the child to infuse fear then you have got it all wrong, there's a mile between fear and respect. Yes I was afraid but not of the parent, he was still my dad but I did fear a smack that hurt. That way me and dad got on and I didn't get myself in trouble.

For me today, a lot of kids have lost any respect for society, no crime is too bad, nothing is un-sayable , everything is at their pace. It's wrong, they need boundaries and targets, personally I'd love to see anyone who has left school given a year to organise themselve and then unless they had work or ongoing learning that they get put into National Service, it would give them structure.

But of course, that's going to sound so disgusting to some, why should I impose that upon them, well I'd guess those people would be lazy unemployed people whose dream day is to smoke weed all day and 'chill'.

Sorry, but that's a waste of human life, the brain and the talent you have, if that's your way then you should NEVER have kids, they will be 2nd to you for attention.

Same goes for under age mothers who just get pregnant and don't even know who the father is, what sort of moral parent will you be, you had choices but chose to just do the lazy lay back and worry about it later thing, it was all about you and not what might be.

I'm sure there are some excellent single mothers but there's a whole huge mob that are just 'wannabe old' kids that should have been allowed to be A CHILD and to enjoy a whole childhood and be taught and be loved!

I was beat as a child with a belt because of stupid, religious nuts like you.

There should be people that come to your house and beat the adults that beat the children