Amish: A silent timebomb

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


I'm gonna be honest with you since clearly the gentle approach did nothing to get your attention. I think you are exagerrating a whole group of people on a few incidents. You seem to relate that you are the only expert on Amish people when the others I have talked to that know plenty of Amish folks and it's funny they never have the same stories as you do. I am not saying what you saw was fake but you clearly have issues with them and I think your generalizations are horrid

But it's ok though because you just have to ignore how we feel about it.

And to the other poster...no pummeling your kids isn't right but I was bratty when I was young from my own devices. a few well placed spankings and frankly I am a very respectful individual these days but hey...I am not silent or reserved so I guess I am proof that it isn't always the case.

oh and yes I have met the bad side of a belt but I clearly deserved it

-Kyo

You've done your fair share of it too my friend

The fact is we see alot of anti-Amish coming this way but you never really showed us anything to prove otherwise...what else do we have to go on but your word? I wanted to give you a chance and tried to in a most kind way but you rebuffed me so don't blame me for this

-Kyo

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I'm surprised by how many of you are advocating pummeling the crap out of a child to get them to behave. I can only assume you're referencing to [i[other people's children, right? Because if that's your actual solution, all it says is that you're easily outsmarted by a child.

Knocking the little apes around is about the least-effective method of discipline there is, and those of you who claim otherwise for yourselves are simply not remembering the rest of the stuff your parents did to keep your primitive asses in line.

I don't ask this in a smart alec way...but do you have kids?

The little "primitive apes" do not have the higher reasoning and logic functions. Sometimes a good smacking is called for.

My son hasn't been spanked in 2 years. But when it comes time for a spanking, he sure will get one. It isn't the least effective. It is actually the most effective. Just him knowing that it is an option that is on the table is enough to render my words highly powerful.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

I'm surprised by how many of you are advocating pummeling the crap out of a child to get them to behave. I can only assume you're referencing to [i[other people's children, right? Because if that's your actual solution, all it says is that you're easily outsmarted by a child.

Oh, where to start?

1. 'Pummeling'? Really Fox, you do have a talent for overreaction. I don't think anyone here is talking about taking a child out behind the woodshed and using them for a punching bag.
   
   This is where people get confused. There is a world of difference between disciplinary corporal punishment and 'pummeling'. When I disciplined my children, it wasn't done out of anger or vengeance; it was done to make sure the child (who each time it was administered had plenty of opportunity to opt for proper behavior via a less painful route) learned that actions have consequences. Each time I spanked them I did so in full control of my faculties and with a mind toward instilling the wrongness of their behavior in them. My daddy used to spank me when I was bad, and each time he would say the words "this is gonna hurt me worse than it does you". I didn't believe him back then, but I do today. It really did hurt me worse than it hurt my kids.
   
   
2. I have two children, both in their late teens. I would never expect someone to do to their children what I would not do to mine under the same circumstances. So no, I am not referring to other people's children; I am referring to mine.
   
   
3. Easily outsmarted by a child? Really? The most outsmarted parents I have ever known were those who never disciplined their children, as they quickly found themselves totally unable to control their children, who typically were heavy into drug use, sexually active at a far far too early age, failing in school, and quite often resorting to stealing any time they didn't get what they wanted. Oh, yes, and a few of those who too late tried to start the discipline were quickly reported and brought up on criminal charges by their own children and afterward unable to even scold them without that threat of "I'll call the cops".
   
   Now, which group of parents are being outsmarted? The ones who have absolutely no control over what their kids do, or those who used corporal punishment to raise respectful, well-behaved children who listened (sometimes anyway
   ) to them?
   
   
4. The least effective method? (Yeah, I know, not in the quote above, but in your post.) Please show me a more effective method. Show me someone who can present two children in their late teens who have never been spanked and yet who are polite, conscientious, friendly, and compassionate, as well as being intelligent and independent. I can show you two right now who fit every one of those descriptions, except that they have been spanked, and at a very early age.
   
   Actually, they were only spanked at a very early age. It only took a few times, and that looming threat referenced by Texan, to ensure that no further spankings were even needed.

Your ideal was put into practice by quite a few people back in the 80s. It failed to produce the desired results, and instead created an army of children who engaged in criminal and self-destructive actions. The experiment, in short, failed. The most foolish thing one can do is continue to run failed experiments, as you seem to be advocating.

I say if it failed, move on to something else.

TheRedneck


[edit on 7/27/2009 by TheRedneck]

Im pretty sure a abuse goes on everywhere and you judging them by the few you know.

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter

Thank you for the links. I will check them out.

If there is a pattern of child abuse within Amish communities (forced or coerced incest would certainly be such), then it should be brought out into the open. I do not believe there is such happening on any scale other than the possible occasional pervert (which would exist in any society), but it will hurt nothing to investigate your links. Who knows, I may learn something.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


All it does is reinforce a culture of violence and children are taught to fear parents and authority figures when they are physically discliplined. It's all fine and dandy until some of those very same authority figures decide to take their abuse further and destroy the child's life.

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


I have to ask this question.

Do the Amish allow their children to ride school buses?

This seems to be completely contrary to my understanding of Amish culture.

reply to post by GradyPhilpott


Two of the largest school districts in the area that I speak of, DO allow the Amish kids to ride on their school buses. The buses drop the Amish kids off at the Amish school houses. My 2 kids ride one of these buses, and on their bus, 6 Amish kids ride that one.

There are about 12 Amish school houses scattered across this county (5th largest county in upstate NY). 2 large school districts cover this area. And both provide transportation for Amish kids who live more than a few miles from each school.

I would post the names of the actual school districts here, but I am unsure of the trouble I might get in to if I did. So I won't.....for now.

Don't ask me what kind of arrangement the Amish have with these school districts to allow this, because I have no idea. All I know, is the area Amish kids have been riding these buses for over 15 years.

Note: I know I said I was done with this thread...but I calmed down and changed my mind.
And I apologize to those who I used harsh language and criticisms against in earlier posts.

[edit on 7/27/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

reply to post by GradyPhilpott


The Amish don't but the Mennonites do which is a closely related sect similiar to the Amish except they will use things like electricity and gasoline powered devices.

I went to a Mennonite Summer Day camp when I was a kid and it was really a lot of fun.

They also ran a boarding school for the learning disabled out of the same facility and we would see many of them on the minature golf course in the afternoon.

Not a mark on them, clean, well taken care of and the camp itself was well run the staff professional.

From what I can put together the OP snuck a plastic wiffle ball bat and ball into his Amish baby sitters home and got his butt whipped for it after trying to con the other kids into playing with it with him after he was told to put it away.

He's still angry about that.

Some people stop growing emotionally at various ages because of traumas and how they react to things that they percieve as truamatizing even though many people wouldn't be traumatized by a similiar occurence.

The OP seems to have been bearing a crudge ever since and doesn't like it when he can't get his way.

What a world.

I didn't get that from the OP

I got concern.

And god knows there are cults that abuse their children and get away with it.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

The Amish don't but the Mennonites do which is a closely related sect similiar to the Amish except they will use things like electricity and gasoline powered devices.

You're wrong. If you want absolute PROOF that Amish , and I mean AMISH kids ride school buses...contact the Transportation Department at the Addison Central School or the Jasper-Troupsburg Central School Districts...and ask them. These are in Addison NY and Jasper NY.

Point, set, match.

[edit on 7/27/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


Amish kids don't ride school buses!

Never have never will. It sounds to me like you have some Amish impersonators on your hands, try pulling one of the little school kids beards I bet it comes right off.

Amish kids riding school buses too funny.

Hey you forgot to tie the Amish in with the Reptilian aliens or Nibiru is that coming later?

I can't wait.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by MadDogtheHunter

 

Amish kids don't ride school buses!

Never have never will. It sounds to me like you have some Amish impersonators on your hands, try pulling one of the little school kids beards I bet it comes right off.

Amish kids riding school buses too funny.

Hey you forgot to tie the Amish in with the Reptilian aliens or Nibiru is that coming later?

I can't wait.

If you're too lazy to find out for yourself, then you're not worth the time to waste on arguing. Sure, alllllll the Amish in allllll of western NY are impersonators...what a joke. CAN YOU PROVE IT? Ignorance denied, you're ignored.

Google the phone number for Addison Central School (Addison NY), ask for the bus garage....they'll transfer you...ask for the supervisor...ask him "hey, do Amish kids ride ANY of your buses?"....he'll say yes.

I offer one little shred of "evidence" to back up just one of my claims...and you people still argue it. alrighty then.....talk about ignorance!

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


You maybe describing a less conservative vein of Amish folk.


They ride the school bus because they pay property taxes, local, county, and state taxes. Same reason why they can get Fire, Ambulance and Police service if they need or want it. Why do you think they sell their goods and wares to the English? To get rich? Hardly. They do pay taxes. The loophole in the religion is that it is not them who is operating the school-bus, ambulance, fire truck, etc. It is the English. God does not just use Christian's. He uses everyone.

They follow the Bible to a T. The Bible says to "Render unto Caesar, that which is Caesar's . . . "

They do not pay Social Security taxes, insurance, etc, because it is against their religion. But on the same vein, they do not receive benefits from the taxes that they do not pay. You may do the same if you meet the requirements, and fill out this form . . . or you can become a Pastor, or even get a state job!

The kids are allowed to venture into the real world at 16. They must make a choice by 21. If they choose Amish, they continue on in their religion. If they choose the world, they are all but shunned in most cases. Sometimes the elders will let one who chose the world come back and be forgiven, but that is rare.


[edit on 7/28/2009 by Lemon.Fresh]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
First of all the Harrison Ford movie you are referring to was not about the Amish but Jack Mormons, those Mormons in the Four Corners area of the United States who still practice polygamy and have nothing whatsoever to do with the Amish.

The movie is "Witness", about an Amish boy who witnessed a crime while in Philadelphia. It was filmed in Philly & Strasburg PA, a basic 30 second google will show anyone that.

Having grown up in that area all my 40+ years, I have also grown to both respect & resent them. A few issues to clear up;

Amish can & do own modern tools & vehicles. They have many "loopholes" that require power to be generated on their farm or have an english person drive the vehicle... but they do own & use them.

If they work legally for an english business, they pay taxes like anyone else (FICA, SSI, etc.). Most have birth certificates, but not some of the Old Order ones.

I don't see any on buses around here, but I know they do in some parts... like anything, it varies from state to state.

The schoolhouse murders a few years back happened about 20 miles from my house. While passing that exact school in Nickle Mines PA my 7 year old daughter asked about it and I explained it was an Amish school. Less then 2 weeks later the murders occured.

While their buggies can be annoying sometimes, I hardly would agree with the OP. He really should read up on history and practice an excercise we still use in school. Replace the word "Irish, Jew, Colored", etc... with "Amish" and get back to us.

I agree child abuse is wrong, but if the child isn't getting killed or emotionally scared, then I don't think It matters.

And seeing as how there's no mass murderers going around in Amish land, killing others to fill the emotional hole from his father's abusive hands, I do not believe that anything is wrong.

Originally posted by MadDogtheHunter
If State/County officials can rip a kid away from one of us for making them do their chores...then by all means, the Amish should be subject to the same thing. Religious rights mean absolutely squat anymore. Why should the label "Amish" act as a law enforcement shield??

[edit on 7/25/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

If the State/County officials can abuse our rights and get away with it, does that mean they should be able to abuse the rights of others?

Think about what your are saying!

Ironically (and humorously), aren't the Amish just a bunch of community organizers who really believe in community?

ok you say you are 31 this happened in the 80's...I know it isnt all that long ago but in that time parents did "woop" their kids more regularly than they do now. Heck even in the 50's it was more regular that it was in the 80's my dad would tell me stories of having to get the switch off the tree. he was a well behaved kid after that. nowadays you get a switch and and your beating your child. Dont get me wrong I dont think you should "beat" children but if they step out of line they need to be punished. I dont think that all amish people live the way this clan lives. I have never been "inside" the comminity I am basing my opinion off of outside minimal observation, however as you say the cops only intervene when someone dies...my geuss is not as many children die in their community as in ours as a result of abuse...even taking into account the populations ratio.