Amish: A silent timebomb

Originally posted by MadDogtheHunter
reply to post by refuse_orders

 

Oh, now I'm a Nazi. Thats cool. What are you? A moron? Next insult please.......

No one really wants to insult you, we were just trying to lessen the scope of your issue to a more accurate particularity.

And no one really believes your a Nazi either, although the point being made is that your view leans towards totalitarianism. I certainly hope that rather than insulting you personally, we can keep the discussion aimed at the views presented.

And rather than attacking you personally, we can keep the attacks centered on the views presented.

You are as welcome here as anyone else, as are your views. And by discussing these views, we can all learn from the experience and grow from it.

The overall gist here is that the Amish keep to themselves, and most posters here can agree that if we go after them, than all of us are ultimately screwed in the long run. That is why you have so much dissent against the views presented.

Please do not identify yourself as a person with any view you may hold today, as views are mutable and can change as the days progress and as we learn more about the world around us.

You, as anyone, are welcome to change your views when presented with further information that may make those old views seem silly.

This is what ATS is about, learning. And you have learned a lot about yourself and others from this thread I know it deep down inside. Your pride or ego may prevent you from admitting that to us, but I know and you know that you have realized the views presented are archaic, and that there are far better views that can easily replace them.

However if you are willing to admit those views are perhaps a bit too generalized and outdated, than this thread will certainly have made major progress.

I may not agree with the view, but I will forever defend your right to have it. Take care and I hope we can have far more friendly debates in the future Mad Dog.

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


I never called you a Nazi if you care to read the post one more time, I compared your obviously racist and bigoted views towards an historical movement that had similar views. In what way did i throw an insult at you?

Oh that's right i didn't.

Looking back your the guy who has been throwing insults at a group of people not present to defend themselves. Doesn't ATS have rules about that sort of thing in the terms of use?

Making baseless posts attacking or accusing anyone without evidence other than a few other unrelated stories you have found on the net does not make your argument valid. Clearly you have not got the response you desired from your post, your probably not going to either. Don't you see what has happened here? You have shown beyond doubt you just have a grudge against a certain community and are trying to publicly discredit them, your attempt failed. As if that is not enough you shamelessly try to lie about what you have stated before.

Well, lets see if I can get this whole thing on the track it was intended to be on in the first place......

1. Why should any group of people, regardless of race or religion, be allowed to "bypass" the laws of the land they live upon?

It only seems fair, that if a person/people live within the borders of a nation, they should be expected to follow every law on the books, just like the rest of the nations citizens. There should be NO exceptions either way.

2. If you're born on American soil, that makes you an American citizen by default. Therefore, you're expected to abide by the laws set down for every American citizen, regardless your feelings about the laws.

3. I don't agree with a lot of our own laws and regulations...but I have to follow them, or risk being imprisoned, fined, sued or otherwise. Just like any other naturlized citizen.

4. Maybe a large number of us citizens should form our own religion based around one that allows us freedom from our own governments laws. Why not? It wouldn't be any different from what these other groups of people are doing.

This is my last attempt to refocus my original intentions with this topic. If it fails again, screw it.

I am sure you probably skimmed over my post...shame because I tok the time to very gently discuss what are seeing here. There was no attack. I wanted to do this to explain wat is happening on our side of the discussion and wanted to do it in the east violent manner possible..ah well

-Kyo

They do have to follow "The law of the land" which is the Constitution and related State Constitutional laws (or rather Common Law).

However, they are not subject to Statutes in some cases which are implemented by the corporate government. Because these statutes require contractual agreement for them to have any bearing in legal matters.

There is a huge difference between Statutes and the Law of the Land.

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 26-7-2009 by muzzleflash]

[edit on 26-7-2009 by muzzleflash]

[edit on 26-7-2009 by muzzleflash]

The laws of America - as one poster recently explained - are contractual in nature. The Amish don't have Social Security cards, don't utilize the school system - They have basically opted out of many of the benefits of the U.S.

Why are they allowed to remain a separate entity from the rest of the country, immune to our laws? First, they don't have the reputation of being a criminal organization, like the Mafia. Secondly, they are self-sufficient, and could almost be put in the category of a sovereign nation. Thirdly, they are self-governing. They are not unlike the Native Americans in these respects.

I actually think it's pretty nifty that the Amish can thumb their noses at the American laws and customs, and not have to rely on Social Security (it's broke), our corrupt politicians, our generally terrible public school system, nor government handouts.

4 years ago, before I moved to PA (which was a huge mistake in its self), my neighbors worked with a crew of Amish guys. And I remember over hearing the older Amish man talking about how he got a letter from the county, stating he was expected to show up for Jury Duty. He went, and was allowed to leave, simply because his beliefs don't allow for such an activity. What the hell does that have to with anything?

Also, someone posted way back, that Amish don't use public services like Fire Companies. Thats not true. I was a volunteer firefighter for 7 years in NY, and we responded to Amish calls on an average of 14 times a year. Brush fires, grass fires, the occasional structure fire and several ambulance runs.

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter

That someone who posted about the fire services was me. If you have some evidence that I was mistaken, then so be it. I'm not too proud to eat a little crow when I am wrong, and I never claimed to be an expert on the Amish.

Where I take exception is that you apparently (as many others have posted) have very little regard to anyone who lives differently from you. Your posts in response to the many skeptics on here clearly show a bias that no doubt arose when you were punished for wrong-doing at a young age. Sorry, pal, but that's life. I have had it, both my kids had it when they were younger, my father and mother had it, and even my grandparents had such disciplinary actions.

You complain about them riding horses. You complain about the horses defecating. You complain that they smell. You complain that they work too hard too young. You complain that they don't use modern conveniences. You complain that they have the unmitigated gall to use their personal property as they see fit. Then you complain that the Amish honor their beliefs in action as well as in word. Sorry, but those are not terrible things. The only real crime you mentioned is that of forced incest, which as I pointed out earlier has no support whatsoever in the Amish culture and is even in stark opposition to their lifestyle.

Then you tell someone to 'go churn some butter'? Come on! What's wrong with churning butter, anyway? I even tried my hand at it in my early days, back when my grandparents made their own butter (not the plastic yellow stuff you normally eat today... real butter what come out of a cow!). OK, maybe I wasn't good at it, but hey, I tried!

Your bias is showing. I said it before and I'll say it again:

Ignorance denied. Next?

TheRedneck

Edit to add: There is a verse in the Bible that states "judge not, that ye be not judged". The purpose of a jury is to judge guilt, and that is in direct opposition to their religious beliefs and therefore the US Constitution.


[edit on 7/26/2009 by TheRedneck]

reply to post by TheRedneck


You're a little late for the slam-party...thats over and done with. Move on, I have.

Slam Denied....Next?

[edit on 7/26/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


I'll try onc more...did you read what I wrote a bit ago? I really want to nicely explain with no slamming involved

-Kyo

reply to post by KyoZero


Yes, I read it. I've read every reply up to this point.

reply to post by badgerprints


I 100% support what you said.

I also believe that abuse and issues happen in all areas of society, so if true, I see no point in singling out the Amish.

3 to 4 times a week? That is most certianly child abuse. It is also means that it was wasted violence, as you continued to need those beatings. It is troubling that you think it was ok, so you will probably do it to your kids as well. Gonna land you in jail at some point is my prediction. Take away privlages before resorting to violence. I imagine the Amish kids have no privlages worth a damn, so violence is the only thing left. I'm pretty sure the Hitler youths acted just as properly as the Amish kids. Doesn't mean what theyw ere doing was the right thing.

Bottom line is adults who lay their hands on children aren't fit to have children in my opinion.

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by TheRedneck

 

Ahh, the switch. I remember the switch, and I also remember having the name of my dad's name imprinted backwards on my rear and legs(which reads correctly in the mirror).

My parents use to make me go pick out my own switch. Which after a few years experience I found out was not such a bad thing. One might at first glance think the smaller switch is the best(for least amount of pain). Not the case. The best way is to get as thick of switch as you can find. And also get as close as possible to the end that is being held. It bounces more and is less painful.

I was spanked until I moved out when I was 16. Atleast 3 or 4 times a week, 3 or 4 times a day when I was younger. Had switches break from use.

I am not "broken" from it, and I certainly didn't feel abused at all. It's not like my parents did it just because they were bored. I was a rowdy kid, had 2 younger brothers and it kept us in line for the most part.

People act like "oh that's so awful". But yet, when given the choice between that and being "grounded", I would choose that each and every time(and it sucked when you got both anyway lol). I would rather be whipped than be grounded from going outside to play any day of the week.

We use to get paddled in school, and I would always choose the paddling over writing sentences or being suspended. Yes, it hurts, but it's only temporary.

The OP says they had "whelps that lasted days". And guess what? It probably didn't hurt for more than an hour - if that long. Which is the entire reason I would choose that over being grounded. It didn't last as long.

I don't think I've ever even seen or meet someone who was amish, so I can't really comment on that. But the above claim of "child abuse" is not child abuse at all. If it was abuse, then kids wouldn't choose it over being grounded all the time. It's actually a lesser punishment.

Children of Native Americans were never beaten, never "educated" or forced to do anything. They grew up to be free people, naturally following their instinct to be part of the tribe. Respecting each other, and themselves. How come they did not became "spoiled" and "good for nothing" ?

People are social beings. Children's nature is not "antisocial" and they do no need molding and beating to fit into society. Except if that is a slave society.

Crazy Horse, Tashunkewitko of the western Sioux, was born about 1845. Killed at Fort Robinson, Nebraska in 1877, he lived barely 33 years.

As a boy, Crazy Horse seldom saw white men. Sioux parents took pride in teaching their sons and daughters according to tribal customs. Often giving food to the needy, they exemplified self-denial for the general good. They believed in generosity, courage, and self-denial, not a life based upon commerce and gain.

One winter when Crazy Horse was only five, the tribe was short of food. His father, a tireless hunter, finally brought in two antelope. The little boy rode his pony through the camp, telling the old folks to come for meat, without first asking his parents. Later when Crazy Horse asked for food, his mother said, "You must be brave and live up to your generous reputation."

It was customary for young men to spend much time in prayer and solitude, fasting in the wilderness --typical of Sioux spiritual life which has since been lost in the contact with a material civilization.

I recommend the book "The Continuum Concept".
www.primitivism.com...

The helplessness of childhood makes the threat of bodily harm or loss of love, which is used by the parents and others to enforce civilized morality and civilized education, a traumatic experience. The developing little person becomes afraid to express its own tribal nature. There is much fear that lies at the bottom of becoming a civilized adult.

When the child becomes aware of ideas and impulses that oppose the dictates of civilization, s/he experiences anxiety, which is the signal for danger. It is not the insights and urges themselves that the child fears, but rather the reaction to them on the part of those in charge

We have internalized our masters, which is a well-known psychological response to trauma. When faced with overwhelming terror, the human mind splits, with part of itself modeling itself after the oppressor. This is an act of appeasement: "Look," the mind says in effect, "I am like you, so do not harm me." As a result of the civilizing process, together with this psychological defense mechanism known as "identification with the aggressor", we now hear the alien voices of the various representatives of civilization in our heads.

These ego-alien identifications, built up over the course of a lifetime, cohere and form a distinct, circumscribed personality, or false self, that represents and enforces the rules and regulations of civilization. This false self is observable in the frozen facial expressions, stereotypic gestures, and unexamined behavioral patterns of the general public

[edit on 26-7-2009 by pai mei]

I challenge anyone to compare the frequency of rape, theft, child abuse & incest along with spreading disease LOL in the Amish community to any other "Mainstream"religion of your choice.

This is pure nonsense in my opinion. Spreading disease? C'mon. Sounds like the accusations the Nazi's made against the Jews, Gypsies, and whatever other scapegoat was convenient.

You have to understand that what we now call "child abuse" was once (and in my lifetime) considered simple discipline. "Spare the rod, spoil the child".

The rules we have about child abuse/discipline are an overreaction to serious incidents in which children were seriously injured or killed by out-of-control parents who thrashed them until the broke bones or worse. While I don't like the thought of hitting kids, it seems to me that sometimes a good whack at the proper moment can save a lifetime of hurt. I do not have children, so I can't say what discipline works and what doesn't, but as a kid growing up, the fear of my father was enough to keep me in line. He did not hesitate to use corporal punishment.

I hardly think the Amish are a "silent timebomb". They're a religious group that keeps to itself and avoids modern technology for the most part (though apparently they do ride on trains). They're not planning to take over the world, unlike some other religions. They're just trying to do their thing. Yes, they do have lots of kids ("Be fruitful and multiply"), but so do many other religious groups.

We've got lots of other things to worry about.

Corporal punishment is common with many peoples. In fact with most. I'm not surprised by that.

The Incest allegation however is egregious enough you should have proof before posting that on a public board. I wonder if you have proof or if it is just gossip? How many Brothers and Sisters do you know for a fact have procreated? Did you inform the Police? Or is it just gossip?

I was raised in the Mormon religion for instance. I now practice a different faith, but I have nothing against Mormons nor do ever lie for them or about them. I learned really quickly that many if not most others do lie about them constantly.

For instance the lie that they practice polygamy and accusations of incest are common. I've bought books in Christian Bookstores written by Pentecostals that were full of lies about them.

Because of that I always ask myself when reading things like this -

Does the author have a personal score to settle with an individual in the religion and is labeling the entire faith because of the actions of one or a few?

Are the accusations just gossip from people spread by word of mouth with no proof or personal knowledge?

With the Mormons I know the above is nearly always what is going on and yet people will insist the lies are true, and will even put the lies in books.

I'll have to take this with a grain of salt as I've never heard anyone say the Amish practice "Forced Incest". Do you have a link to testimony by members of the Amish Faith who say this is true? Have you personally witnessed it happening? Is it just a rumor you are spreading because you are mad about being spanked?

I don't believe in corporal punishment by the way. What happened to you is wrong. But is it at the heart of your statements and everything else is gossip not based on any real facts?

You basically called them unclean and yet every Amish I've ever seen was clean and so were their clothes? Are you saying that if they use the soap they make instead of some product in fancy packaging they are dirty? You do know that soap you make yourself is a great anti-bacterial and germicide, don't you?

reply to post by pai mei


I used to live in Gallup New Mexico and have a lot of Zuni friends. Believe me the ones I know discipline their children just as much as any other society. I can't speak for every other native American tribe, but the Hopi Zuni & Navajo friends I know have all been known to "tan their kids hides" on occasion.

Lets not romanticize any particular culture. There are strict as well as permissive parents in all societies.

Give the rampant alcohol and drug abuse in society and yes even Native American society, I would say that we need more discipline, not less.

Ticking timebombs? Let's see, when the pressures and stress of life seems to be at the breaking point what is the Amish response?

Amish leader: "Times are tough for everyone, let's go help Brother so and so build his barn.

Amish Mother: "While you guys are doing that I will bake them a pie."

Amish Leader: "Meanwhile, lets pray together as a family for them."

I don't hear any calls for Jihad. I don't see any attempts on their part to stockpile weapons in preparation for an armed response to the NWO.

I don't know about you but if the Sh*t ever hits the fan here in the US like many predict, I'd be willing to bet the Amish & Mennonites will be the first to share whatever resources they have and not be inclined to have the "Kill or be Killed" mentality that a lot of people have today.






[edit on 26-7-2009 by Sparky63]