Amish: A silent timebomb

Just to make things clear about this entire thread, and my OP:

1. NO, I do NOT believe we should force our ways of everyday life on the Amish. I just think if they live on our soil, they should have to follow ALL the same exact laws that we do...or we should be able to follow the laws like they do...either or.

2. I, in no way, support or condone this so-called government we have. But unfortunately, until they change their ways, I, like most, have to do what they say, or suffer the consequences.

3. All of my information stems from 5+ years of direct interaction with several Amish families in western NY. Most from what I personally saw, and the rest comes from what other Amish friends of mine have told me in confidence. All these years, I have kept their confidence, and only now, decided to "get it out".

4. I have NO personal conspiracy to "destroy" the Amish or any race of human beings. However, if a certain percentage of a certain group of people abuse laws, personal freedoms and/or corrupt morals of children; then they MUST be singled out. If by scorning an entire population of this certain group of people is what it takes to bring the right attention to the issues, then so be it. In the end, the victims will be perhaps grateful that SOMEONE cared enough for them, to bring light to the very bad things they have to suffer on a daily basis. And maybe, just maybe, all the negative attention will force the Amish Elders to re-think a few details of how things run within the community.

5. Just because someone else doesn't see something happening, does NOT mean that it isn't happening.

The above is my entire point for this thread. How anyone can read in to it, that I hate ALL Amish because of whatever, is beyond me. I just think they (the Amish Elders) need to wake up and realize whats going on in certain Amish homes, and do something about it that makes sense, and stops the hurt and the immoral behavior. If they don't, one day, their internal issues will only cause thier whole way of life to crumble from within. That would truly be a shame, wouldn't it?



[edit on 7/30/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

Originally posted by MadDogtheHunter

Originally posted by Aeons
The Romantics think that they win because they are willing to defend even the indefensible. Lovely.

And 99.9% of them defend without proper knowledge or "evidence" learned by their own eyes. If their eyes didn't see it, or their ears didn't hear it, or their senses didn't feel it...then it couldn't have happened, can't be happening, and it can't be true.

The only evidence you have posted is that you might have been spanked for good cause by attempting to play with an innapropriate toy, at an innapropriate time and that you question your parents still to this day for continuing to socialize with the Amish in any fashion afterwards.

Evidence of emotional immaturity.

The Amish community actually forgave and made a great act of charity to the family of a man who murdered two teenaged Amish girls in cold blood because their spiritual doctrine and belief system teaches them to forgive is divine and vengence belongs to their lord and should not be exercised by them.

The only thing I have ever known them to be guilty off is making delicious food using all natural ingredients and making exceptionally well made quality items using the best ingredients, materials and workmanship humanly possible, and being soft spoken, non-violent, charitble and resolute and devout in their beliefs and ways.

You really should have just left that bat at home and then accepted your own responsibility for bringing the punishment on yourself by trying to impose your will as a child over their will and rights to parent and supervise their own children in an environment and ways they felt appropriate not you felt is appropriate as a willful child.

Your own private U2Us to me are highly suggestive that you lack personal self discipline emotionally when you can not get your way through attempts to intimidate and the removal of some of your posts and the warning you recieved for violating ATS Terms and Conditions which are clearly stated is highly indicative of that.

Carrying and nurturing this hate and prejudice inside you based on your own unfounded fears and inability to control others when you lack the emotional maturity and discipline to fully control yourself is counterproductive to your own spiritual growth in life.

By the way I could have reported you U2Us as they too violated Terms and Conditions but I didn't, because to forgive is divine.

Of course you can't forgive yourself for doing something wrong until you first accept you did something wrong to forgive and one of most peoples favorite ways to avoid that is by insisting that it was someone else that did something wrong to overlook and obscure the fact you did something wrong.

You should have left the wiffle ball bat and ball at home, or in the corner at their house till the end of the day like they told you.

You didn't understand then why it was wrong not to listen, and you still don't understand today why it was wrong and is wrong not to listen.

The Amish aren't out to hurt a fly.

You on the other hand?

Enough said.

5. Just because someone else doesn't see something happening, does NOT mean that it isn't happening.

And just because you show us a few 'examples' doesn't mean it it IS happening...at least not at the level you seem to be claiming

-Kyo

MOD: please delete this reply....it was unintentional.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

Originally posted by KyoZero

5. Just because someone else doesn't see something happening, does NOT mean that it isn't happening.

And just because you show us a few 'examples' doesn't mean it it IS happening...at least not at the level you seem to be claiming

-Kyo

...and just because you refuse to believe any of this...does NOT mean its not true

[edit on 7/30/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter

1. Agreed that we should not force our culture on other cultures. However, a very large part of our culture is based on certain freedoms. We cherish freedom of speech, the very reason you can post on this Internet without fear the government will come knocking down your door. We have freedom of the press, which means you can watch and read the news (presumably) whether the government deems it appropriate to know or not.
   
   There are several of these rights and freedoms, among them the freedom of religion. Now while each freedom has limits (yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater without cause is not protected, for instance), I know of no heinous situation the Amish engage in due only to their religious values.
   
   So in one sense, forcing these people to violate their religious morals by, say, forcing them into jury duty would be more than just an intrusion on their culture; it would be an abrogation of our culture. Forcing them to stop using buggies would be akin to either forcing them to violate their beliefs by owning and operating an automobile or placing them at a severe disadvantage... how could they move from one place to another? Is that what you are really asking for? Equality of attitude and beliefs? If so, you are going down a road that leads to tyranny, and in the end, anyone who ventures down that road will be tyrannized as well as their targets.
   
   
2. I'm afraid you do indeed support the government we have, by your stated attitude. Are you waiting for someone else to change the way the government works? Are you expecting such a change to be bloodless? Peoples like the Amish are the ones who are actually opposing the government, by refusing to participate in it. Those of us who do participate in it are supporting it.
   
   
3. I have accepted the links you posted and promised to check them out. I have also worded my comments on this subject carefully to make sure and not appear as some sort of 'expert'.
   
   I have precious little time to research at this time, but I will check them out as I can and if need be, change my opinions accordingly. Can your opinions change due to new or expanded information? Your tone in some of your posts says you would not/could not. I only hope that is an incorrect reading on my part.
   
   
4. If actual child abuse is happening, my personal feeling is still that it is indeed a small minority engaged in it. The anecdote you relayed in your original post did not show evidence of child abuse, IMO. Instead it showed an example of someone (you) breaking the rules and then becoming angry when punishment was encountered for this violation.
   
   That is really why I responded so vehemently. I am tired of watching an entire generation of children grow up to be spoiled brats who are unable to do anything but complain, primarily because parents are too permissive and either afraid to discipline or so philosophically opposed to any kind of discipline that they cannot see the real damage their philosophy is doing to their children. Children need discipline when they misbehave. Sending them to their room, complete with stereo, computer, TV, telephone, and video games, is not punishment.
   
   Now if you really have no agenda against the Amish, why have you leveled such a heinous charge against them without any initial evidence other than an anecdotal report of discipline? Child abuse is a serious issue! You dilute its seriousness when you accuse willy-nilly without corroborating evidence.
   
   To your credit, you did eventually produce some links. I do acknowledge that.
   
   
5. Just because an accusation is leveled, does not mean that accusation is true.
   
   As the accuser, you have the initial burden of proof of your accusation. Someone could walk up tomorrow to you on the street and exclaim that you were a member of a terrorist group. That does not make it a fact. Your accuser should be (and technically by law, is) required to produce some evidence to prove that you have a high likelihood of being guilty of their accusation. Only when enough evidence is shown to indicate guilt does the burden of proof shift on you to prove your innocence.
   
   In this case, you are accusing an entire group of heinous activity. It is now your responsibility to provide evidence that your accusation is correct. Until you have done so, there is no reason for anyone to suspect guilt. That evidence may be anecdotal in certain cases, but must also be verifiable and contain concrete details. Names, dates, locations... all of these would be verifiable. Now I don't expect (or encourage) you to give such concrete evidence on an Internet forum (even ATS), but then again, this is exactly why you have been informed of the inappropriateness of posting an anecdotal accusal like this on the Internet.

Perhaps this would go over good on Yahoo or AOL... but as has been stated many times, this is ATS. We pride ourselves in rising above the mob mentality that overwhelms many lesser boards. We expect evidence to support claims, and we research things out. We critique every accusation.

We deny ignorance.

TheRedneck


[edit on 7/30/2009 by TheRedneck]

Hmmm. Kinda hard to produce "evidence" from something that happened over 20 years ago. There were no little digital cameras or cell phones with cameras. And at the age of 9, pardon me for not carrying around a 35mm camera or a huge RCA VHS Camcorder to get "evidence" to use 20 years later. A 9 year old child can't be expected to think that far ahead in life. Thats just unrealistic. So, explain to me, minus any devices a 9 year old should carry around in 1989, how I could have thought to capture evidence? And please, be realistic in your attempted reply. When you were 9, you didn't know what was going to happen 20 years later. And if you say you could, I will place you on ignore for being stupid.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


Then without any evidence how can you claim anything? If i had no evidence of something that happened to me 20 years ago i could do nothing now. In fact it would be treated as baseless allegation, until evidence did turn up, if it ever could. Courts would laugh you out of there...

reply to post by refuse_orders


80% of posts on this site could fall under the same scrutiny. But I bet you believe more than 80% of what you read on here. And I bet atleast 20% of those have as much "evidence" to offer.

People need to stop romanticizing the Amish culture. Thats called being "naive".

And oh, true ignorance is when someone believes something is untrue simply because they are uneducated about the subject. In other words, "If you haven't experienced it, or haven't seen it for yourself...it can't be true". I stand firm with my convictions in this thread. If I wasn't trustful of my own memory or my own ears, or my own eyes...I certainly wouldn't share this with strangers and make a fool of myself. There'll be a few replies saying I AM a fool, but I don't care. You weren't there, I was. You weren't told horrific stories by former Amish people...I was.

You probably think those books by Wanda Brunstetter or Beverly Lewis are good reads right? Lol, thats half the problem with peoples feelings about the Amish. They form their opinions from those stupid romance books about them or from what they "learn" on the net...which is mostly false anyway, like everything else found on the net.

Sooooo, anyway..... I stand by what I've stated in this thread. Bash me all you want, it doesn't matter. Perhaps if I stated that an Amish guy was abducted by a UFO, then turned gay after his experience...that you all would have believed that one huh?

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


Once again you show pure ignorance yourself, how can you say i believe any percentage of what i read here? Do you know me? Do you know what i believe and don't? No you don't... So you cant comment... Without evidence nothing can be ruled 100% truth or not.

Personally i would have given your OP some thought, i can't say about Amish culture or communities as i have never had the opportunity to meet one. Until then my views are neither for or against them.

When i stopped giving your claims any thought other than, this is a guy who is just angry because of past actions and they maybe true or false. Was when you started insulting them and generalising, you accused them of smelling for one, the others i cant be bothered to go quote.

It just seems that without credible evidence for either side this subject is a waste of time. Nobody can win, all it does is push negative views towards a group of people unnecessarily. Im not trying to bash you, I am trying to show you this is pointless, nobody can gain from it.

Originally posted by refuse_orders
reply to post by MadDogtheHunter

 

......Do you know me? Do you know what i believe and don't? No you don't... So you cant comment...

Exactly my point! Perhaps more people should look at that little excerpt and apply it to what they say when bashing someone that is just sharing a life experience. But then again, according to EVERYONE in this thread....I'm wrong. So I MUST be wrong about that too.

Just to add a little irony to this thread.....

Way back in the beginning of the thread, I started to see the whole thing spinning out of left field...so I asked ATS staff to lock it up, so people wouldn't be arguing and bickering back and forth about my OP. I got a message back from them saying "We can't close your thread at this time, because its too good". I'm thinking "um, ok, I don't agree, but you're the bosses". So, it continues.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter


If you look at any response i have made to you in this thread its based on nothing but the comments in the posts you have made. Being as this is an open discussion, i added my views on the story that given by you. Im not saying your wrong or right. I think the way you put the argument across was in a bad way, losing a lots of its credibility when you resorted to insults on many occasions.

I just don't see how any positives can come of this, I don't understand your reasoning for posting the story. Im not saying its wrong or right, just pointless .

[edit on 30/7/09 by refuse_orders]

Originally posted by MadDogtheHunter
Just to add a little irony to this thread.....

Way back in the beginning of the thread, I started to see the whole thing spinning out of left field...so I asked ATS staff to lock it up, so people wouldn't be arguing and bickering back and forth about my OP. I got a message back from them saying "We can't close your thread at this time, because its too good". I'm thinking "um, ok, I don't agree, but you're the bosses". So, it continues.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

I find that a strange answer, i agree with your request for it to be locked. Kudos to you for asking though...

reply to post by refuse_orders


Well, one could say that there must be some point or SOMETHING to this thread and my OP, otherwise, ATS would have killed it before this. Must be someone here thinks the points being made from all sides of this thread have some kind of sense to them. Who knows.

Back to the Amish thread.......

This whole Amish thing must be regional sensitive or something. Because many people from my home area in NY feel the same way about them that I do. I sure wish they were on ATS. But they aren't, simply because that area is slower on the "technilogical draw" than other areas. Its a very rural area. In fact, more than half that area has no internet access.

Pick any day of the week and go to a couple of the local "eatery's" up there, and most of the conversations going on between all the regulars is about "I wish those damn Amish would pack up and go back where they came from". Its been a conversational staple in those places for years. But anyway, I'm lying about that too.

[edit on 7/30/2009 by MadDogtheHunter]

reply to post by TeddiRevolution


Oh no you didn't just say that? There is no such thing as a child’s behavior being so bad that they deserve corporal or sexual abuse as punishment. Now,

Do I spank my child? YES
Do I give my child chores? YES
Does my child receive consequences for her actions? YES
Do I beat my child and leave bruises or cuts? NO
Do I force my child to work like an adult? NO

Come on no human especially a child deserves abuse. Do I disagree with the way Amish rear their kids in general? NO. Do I disagree with abuse? You are damn Skippy. I believe in hard work and I think we would all be better off adopting some lifestyle choices the Amish have made. Like living off the land, not having electricity ect... But abuse of children is NEVER excused. I pray to God you do not have children until you realize no child deserves abuse…

Since I live in Hawaii I never see Amish, but when I go back to the mainland to see family(most of which live in Iowa)I see them alot. The few times I have been on one of their farms I didn't really feel at home. They seemed unhygienic and out of date. But they are polite and make good organic foods. I don't think they should be aloud to ignore our laws though... Unless... I am aloud to make a religion where you get free ice cream because that is your belief, and whenever you ask someone for money they have to give you money(because thats your belief). If I can do that, sure they can do what they want.

The Amish will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

What an obvious hit piece this thread is. Let the Amish live the way they see fit, and in accordance with their conscience. I got spanked pretty good when I was young, and it may well have saved my life.

You may have a legitimate grievance. I will make no judgment on that matter. Getting whacked around with a plastic wiffle ball bat may seem trivial to most of us, myself included, but could and evidently has, in your case, resulted in more enduring emotional issues. However airing out your personal views to people who "don't have a dog in this fight", is futile. It comes across as mud-slinging, and slightly bigoted. At least to me anyway.

The more honorable course would not be to disparage the Amish as if they were collectively responsible for your emotional trauma, but rather to address the parties involved. This may give you the closure you obviously need.

A discreet man would knock on someones door and say, "I would like to talk to you about a matter that concerns me." Or something like that.

You might be surprised, they might apologize to you for smacking you around with the wiffle ball bat and it may make you feel a lot better.

Instead of trying to stir up distrust and dislike of a particular religious group by using expressions like " Silent Timebomb" the morally correct course , the honorable course, would be to address the guilty parties personally. If you feel criminal charges are justified, seek out your local district attorney.

AS far as their customs involving their horses & carriages, if you feel this is a grave health problem, discuss the matter with your city officials. But be prepared to present facts based on real research and not just personal opinion. If you are claiming they spread disease, be intellectually honest enough to prove it.

These are just my views on the matter, I do not intend to offend you, but hope you are able to overcome your dislike for these gentle people.




[edit on 7/31/2009 by Sparky63]

reply to post by MadDogtheHunter

Yes, it is sort of hard to obtain evidence at the age of nine, but let's say your entire anecdote is true (and I have little doubt it is true). You brought a plastic bat into an Amish household at age 9. I'm sure you meant no harm by this; I am equally sure you didn't think there was anything wrong with doing so. After all, it was a harmless toy, and a child that young can't be expected to fully understand religious differences.

But now, as an adult, surely you realize you broke their rules? The punishment you received was minor enough, a few welts at best that healed. Oh, I have no doubt it hurt at the time, and I have no doubt it was embarrassing and confusing to you at the time. Many youthful experiences similar to that happened to me too. One time I was playing around the church with a friend. He was doing something and I joined in seeing nothing wrong with it. When we were caught, My father scolded me pretty hard... made me feel low enough to stand under a snake's belly with a hat on! My friend's dad was nowhere near as hard on his son, even though he was the instigator.

Later on at home, my dad pulled me to the side and quietly explained to me that he knew what happened. He told me that was why I didn't get a spanking, and why he never had any inclination to give me one. But, he explained, he was in a spot. Had he not scolded me, we would have both been looked at suspiciously the next time there was a problem. This way, if another situation ever did come up, and he wasn't there, I would have credibility with others since they had seen him scolding me. It made no sense to me back then, and I was pretty upset about it for a long time, but now I understand. And I believe he did the right thing. It didn't hurt me, other than my pride. And for the life of me, I can't even remember what we did. So you see, I can appreciate how a 9-y/o felt.

But just like me, you survived. You really lost nothing, and gained a bit of insight into how harsh the Amish lifestyle is. I'd be willing to bet you never took that bat back to an Amish household! Your tale needs no evidence for me to believe it; it simply doesn't indicate a pattern of child abuse IMO.

If there really is a pattern of child abuse among the Amish, we don't need a digital photo from a 9-y/o child from years ago to find it. Child abusers are creatures of habit, and will continue to abuse as long as there is someone to abuse. It should be little problem to find enough accusations to make a case; One tale of corporal punishment, however, is not sufficient.

Don't threaten me with that ignore button, either. It doesn't bother me at all if you want to ignore me. I ignore plenty of posters; I just don't need a button to do it.

TheRedneck

Edit to add:
reply to post by Sparky63

That has to be one of the most reasoned responses I have seen on this thread! I'm jealous I didn't post it!

A well-deserved star for you, sir!

TheRedneck


[edit on 7/31/2009 by TheRedneck]