Three Gorges Dam in China–Largest in World – Serious Problems? Affects the Whole Earth

The dam will probably not go down on this eclipse...January 26 2009 was another new moon eclipse, February 9 2009 a full moon eclipse.
There were many other eclipses in August 2008.

Nothing happened, I suppose.

reply to post by questioningall

Ah, another thread full of alarmist nonsense from the Science forum's most unscientific Chicken Little.

I already know flaming is coming.

You bet. Don't you ever learn? You've cried wolf half a dozen times already in the last year or so and nothing has ever happened. Doesn't your unsullied record of totally failed predictions suggest anything to you? Is it some strange compulsion that forces you to do this?

if that water rushed down – if could affect the Earth’s axis and rotation, just as the Tsunami did in 2004.

Absolutely nothing is going to happen to the Three Gorges Dam as a result of the forthcoming eclipse. To imagine it could shows scientific ignorance amounting to primitive superstition - just like those ancient tribes who got their knickers in a twist when they saw an eclipse because they thought the Night God was eating the Day God or some such twaddle.

There are certainly environmental and sociological problems associated with the Three Gorges project. Those of us who stay in touch with reality have been hearing about them for years and years. None are on the global scale you suggest.

This is just pathetic, contemptible scaremongering - again. Shame on you.

Great Thread, Great Research!!!
I read it all and I have been interested in the dam since I first heard about it at least four years ago. I wondered then already what affect it would have on us and the planet.
I just wish everyone that was putting your ideas down would focus on the fact that you weren't zooming in on the eclipse but on the DAM itself.
It is all very well for all the naysayers to say "Yeah but the oceans have been there for ever and they don't cause anything and look at all the other dams that have been built and they don't cause anything, but NEVER has anything of this size been built with the amount of water it holds and the weight of that water taken into consideration, where there was no such weight before, "FOR EVERY ACTION THERE IS AN OPPOSITE AND EQUAL REACTION"
This "Thing" has been built in an area where there are already fault lines, the weight of the water in the dam will cause more seepage of water into the fault lines and lubricate them which can AND PROBABLY WILL cause huge earthquakes.
There have already been MANY reports of fish dying up and downstream of the dam due to pollution!
The dam is probably causing more damage than we could ever imagine or will ever hear about and it DOESN'T just effect the Chinese but everyone one of us that inhabits this planet.

reply to post by Astyanax


oh hey, come on now. Even by chance she should get something right by now....

Sorry there Q, you've once again made a beautiful thread with lots of research and interesting articles but you mean to tell me a lot of people are gonna die....again??

But enough with the flamming and good luck with explaining in 333 days that your indian friend was maybe mistaken and it should have been 3333 days or maybe 33333 days.........

Peace

edit: i mixed up change with chance....maybe Obama did the same, A chance you can believe in....

[edit on 21/7/2009 by operation mindcrime]

Originally posted by SonicInfinity
reply to post by badmedia

 

It's kinda funny to me now. 90% of the time before I click on a topic, I know whether questioningall made it or not. Then, I click on the topic, read the usual stuff, roll my eyes, and have to actually tell myself "okay, read this with an open mind." Then, I get to the end, and I feel like I read nothing at all.

Jeez, sorry you felt this thread was "nothing at all", I personally feel proud of the thread, it took hours to research and a whole day to put together. Everything is linked and validated.

Okay, let's say for a second that there's a conspiracy that it was built on purpose or for a specific, destructive purpose.

There is nothing in the OP - that says it was built to be destructive on purpose. Only the issues regarding the dam - and natural influences that could be destructive for the dam.

What if it was? I can understand if you were rallying up some people to write letters or start protests against these people, but what good is it going to do to argue about it on a message board other than to earn you flags and stars? If it's true what they are doing is bad, then nothing short of a giant mass of people living in the area will stop it. I find all this arguing about its purpose to be nothing but fluff. I wouldn't even mind the fluff if you kept it in one topic, but you keep making topic after topic, and day after day, I see a topic of yours on the front page -- all of which preaching some doomsday scenario.

So, when the MSM brings something to your attention - from torture/Valerie Plame/ to all the many other subjects they may be willing to let the public know about - that is nothing but fluff?!

So bringing the awareness to people about Three Gorges Dam and the REAL issues of it - providing links and going through all the details of why it is a disaster waiting to happen at some point? Is nothing but Fluff?

Sorry, I feel bringing the issues to people on a subject that can have some Terrible consequences for the Chinese people and possible affect the Earth - if something does happen. To me, just like the news - you bring areas of information, that people might not be aware of - to their attention.

So you thought the thread was "fluff" - fine - that is your opinion.

Also you like to continue saying my threads are for me to earn "flags and stars". I have to keep laughing over that. Believe it or not - flags/stars don't have that kind of meaning to me - that you think it does.

Am I happy that some threads get flags and stars? Of course - just like anyone else here - that means you are bringing a subject that people want to know about and is of interest to them.

When I create threads it is NOT for stars and flags - it is to bring various subjects to the attention of members and others on the internet. I would create threads - if there were not stars and flags and do the same thing I am doing and have been doing.

Question... why in the world are you so obsessed with stars and flags? What the heck is someone suppose to do with those stars and flags?
I mean Really!!! Please you need to get over the stars and flags stuff, everytime you post - regarding me. I would be willing to give my "stars and flags" away - BUT I will still Post - subjects that are of interest to me. Then other ATS members can determine if that subject interest them too or not.

I agree with badmedia. Why is it that popularity carries over on this site, but not credibility? Why do topics dealing with important issues get next to no flags, yet topics full of fluff get tens and hundreds? It's bewildering.

[edit on 7/21/2009 by SonicInfinity]

Yep, I have definitely done some alternative threads - I am not sorry for them in the least. In fact - I like to delve into the subjects that are not main stream and look at them in many ways.

So the Three Gorges Dam is not an important subject?!

I have one question for you..................... did you even READ the thread? Or did you post a reply without even looking into what the thread lays out? Because your post is almost exactly as all your other postings in threads I have created. So - since you mention the word "fluff" "not important".

I seriously have to wonder - what you would consider as none "fluff" or "important", because - I think, the fact that the dam is the largest in the world and the enviromental impact, along with over a million people being displaced - 4 more million look to be displaced now. 700 million tons of sediment builds up in the river a year with China having an unproven way of getting rid of it, cracks in the dam with them coming back - not being able to be repaired. The dam can cause earthquakes, the landslides more numerous than had been expected.

The list goes on and on - not to mention 360 million people live below it!

WOW - with the information provided in the OP - I really have to wonder what is NOT "fluff" to you!

Regarding other postings - Yep, I looked at the dam with a more critical eye - trying to DISPROVE the vision - BUT please see I looked at the Dam because of the vision - I explained that is WHY the thread was done.

The thread was not done on the account of my believing the vision - that vision has simply brought the Dam to my awareness to research it. I had expected to find an unbelievably well built, solid, no problems mega structure. But that is not what I found and I laid out the information for all to see.

I was simply honest on how it came to my attention.



[edit on 21-7-2009 by questioningall]

Originally posted by SaraThustra
The Sun is extremely massive, but it is an average of 93 million miles (150 million km) from Earth... the Moon is nearly 400 times closer to our planet, (so) its influence on our oceans, land, or anything else, is twice as strong as the Sun's.

It's the other way round, actually.

150 million km. Let's make that 1.5 x 10^11 metres.

The mass of the sun is roughly 2 x 10^30 kg.

The mass of Earth is 6 x 10^24 kg.

The gravitational force between Earth and the sun is given by

F = G.mS.mE/r^2

where G is the gravitational constant*, mS is the mass of the sun, mE the mass of Earth, and r^2 the square of the distance between their centres**.

So that force is roughly equal to

5.33G x 10^32N (newtons)

The mass of the moon (call it mM) is 7.35 x 10^22 kg.

The average distance from Earth to the Moon is 3.85 x 10^8 m.

Calculating the gravitational force between Earth and moon using the same formula yields a figure of

2.98G x 10^30 N

So according to my calculations, the gravitational force between Earth and the sun is roughly two hundred times stronger than that between Earth and the Moon. Adding the gravitational pull of the moon to that of the sun is going to make no difference to the overall gravitational pull.

Those who can and have the inclination, please check and correct my figures.

Now this:

If they pull in tandem, as during an eclipse, the force is combined which is the whole point. If the dam is unable to contain the greater force, the dam will break.

Let's see.

The capacity of the Three Gorges reservoir is 3.9 x 10^10 m^3 (cubic metres).

Since every cubic metre of water weighs 1000 kg (kilogrammes), the total mass of water in the reservoir is a stunning 3.9 x 10^13 kg.

The surface area of the reservoir is 1.1 x 10^9 m.

The average mass per unit area of the water in the reservoir (when full) is therefore

3.55 x 10^4 kg

Using Newton's formula for gravitational attraction between bodies as above, then, we can calculate the gravitational force per square metre on the water in the Three Gorges reservoir from the sun (about 210 N) and from the Moon (about 1.17 N).

Average combined gravitational force per square metre on the dam's water from both sun and moon amount to about 211.7 N.

Gosh, sounds like a lot. But if this combined force is going to shift the water in the reservoir, it will have to overcome the force of Earth's gravity. How much is that?

We can calculate it, too, using Newton's formula and taking the distance from the planet's surface to its centre as r. The mean value of r is 3.96 x 10^6 m. Using this value we get a figure of about 906,000 newtons per square metre - a force more than four thousand times as strong as that exerted by the sun and moon combined.

No contest. That water ain't going anywhere during the eclipse.

The idea that solar (or lunar) eclipses have substantial gravitational effects is rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

*Whose value is 6.67 x 10^-11. Never mind the units.

**An average figure, just as the masses are rounded-off approximations.

reply to post by Astyanax


Sorry other disagree with you:
link:www.eclipse2006.boun.edu.tr...

Confirming that air-mass movement in fact happens,
hourly data recorded on the day of the 1999 eclipse from a
site in the partial eclipse zone ~north latitude 38.1°, east longitude
20.6°, maximum eclipse magnitude 80%) shows that
atmospheric pressure increased sharply by at least 0.6% during
the eclipse ~from 979 to 985 g/cm2), returning to preeclipse
levels afterward @6#. ~See Fig. 2.! Unfortunately, the
hourly data does not have very good time resolution, and is
for a location roughly 700 km from the path of totality. But it
gives important clues about the magnitude of the air mass
movement.
From the kinetic theory of gases, for any given rms speed
of air molecules v¯ and air density r , pressure p is given by
p513
rv¯ 2. ~This is because pressure changes affect all three
dimensions, so the pressure change in one dimension, such
as downward, is reduced by a factor of three @7#.! If we
differentiate this pressure formula, divide by the original formula,
and rearrange terms, we get a relation between percentage
changes: d r /r5d p/p22d v¯ /v¯ . We do not have
measurements of v¯ during the eclipse, but it varies with the
square root of absolute temperature, which obviously goes
down during the eclipse. If we assume v¯ drops by the same
0.6% change as the pressure rises, this would imply a net
change in air density of 1.8%. Other physically reasonable
assumptions can lead to percentage changes in air mass ranging
from 1.2% to 2.4%; but we will use this median value of
1.8% for our further analysis.

Simple reasoning suggests that the cooler air inside the
eclipse zone will decrease in volume ~increasing in density!
in accord with Boyle’s law as its temperature drops, creating
a ‘‘low’’ pressure region with the unusual character that it
would extend to great altitudes. This leaves room for warmer
air from outside the eclipse zone on all sides of the advancing
shadow of the Moon to flow rapidly into the eclipse zone
and fill the volume emptied by the cooler, denser air there.
This is what happens on a smaller scale across meteorological
fronts. When ‘‘highs’’ and ‘‘lows’’ collide, winds are created
that attempt to equalize those discordant pressures. Note
that for eclipses, the redistribution of air mass would affect
broad areas well outside the eclipse zone through this process
because those areas are the reservoir from which the
extra air mass would be drawn.

. Geometry of Earth’s atmosphere near a particular place.
O5 Earth’s center; P5 observation place; Q5 point in atmosphere;
r5 Earth’s radius; z5 height of atmosphere point Q above
ground; q5 distance from P to Q. a and b are angles of the triangle
at O and P, respectively.

If r is the radius of the Earth
and q is the distance from point P to point Q, then the distance
from O to Q is r1z. We will also need the two angles
Q-O-P5a and Q-P-O5b. An element of atmosphere with
mass dm at point Q will exert an acceleration on point P of
magnitude da5Gdm/q2, directed toward the mass element,
where G is the universal gravitational constant. We can resolve
this into horizontal and vertical components and integrate
over all mass elements in the whole atmosphere or any
subset of them to get the total acceleration caused by the air
mass considered.

For computation, we adopt these numerical values: G
56.67231028 cm3/g s2 ~universal gravitational constant!,
r56.373108cm ~radius of the Earth!, r 051.2931023
g/cm3 ~mean sea level density of dry air at standard temperature
and pressure!, h58.53105cm ~scale height at a typical
surface temperature of 16 °C) @8#. g511.0 ~its maximum
value!. From these, we derive the value az54.6
31024 cm/s2, which is the upward-directed gravitational acceleration
of the observer due to the atmosphere above his
horizon.

Lots more at the above linked site - but I think you may want to look at it - since you are into doing all kinds of numbers.

reply to post by Astyanax


Man, lady, no offence but I dont think I'd like to be stuck in a lift with you if you just worked all that out from scratch.....

Well done if you did....

reply to post by questioningall

Disagree with me?

Not a word of what you just posted has anything to do with gravity or the Three Gorges Dam.

Edit: The paper from which you take it is an effort to show that the unproven 'Allais effect', even if it does actually exist, can be explained by atmospheric activity during an eclipse. Further proof that eclipses do not have gravitational effects./edit

By posting it, you merely demonstrate further how little you know about the subjects of your posts and threads.

[edit on 21/7/09 by Astyanax]

reply to post by questioningall


QuestioningAll, by those calculations, do you know the surface area of the lake, and the corresponding excessive "push" against the dam? Should be able to take the extra air pressure x the surface area of the lake and divide by the surface area of the dam to get the increased pressure on the dam.

I haven't bought into the gravitational effect of the "supermoon," but I can see a correlation between atmospheric pressure, and pressure against the dam. I think you could be onto something there.

It would take a series of serious unfortunate events, kind of like a plane crash, but if the dam were pushed to capacity, the wind happened to be high and producing wave action, then the moon pulled more air pressure to the surface of the lake, and then some trigger mechanism like a landslide or earthquake were to occur, it could be the perfect storm!

reply to post by Astyanax


Will you marry me???

Sorry for the off topic post but i have to give it you for the math....

Third line just to make sure.

Peace

Originally posted by Darthorious
The sad part about all of this is and not even mentioned or thought of by China?

They go to war with another country a couple well placed bombs and they could wipe out a 1/3 of the population in a worse case scenario.

Heck the distraught farmers my get themselves some nano-thermite and just do it themselves.

I'm really surprised they never considered this unless the 1/3 of the population that lives there they don't really care about.

The sad part is my first though on reading the OP's long details of the dam was "wow, what a wonderfully big target"

reply to post by questioningall


Some folks think a little too much of themselves. I am appalled by the personal attacks on this page. This has been an interesting and informative thread.

There's a couple of posters that had some difficulty differentiating between what you have said and what others have surmised, it lends little credibility to their display of mathematical prowess.

I am very interested in the recent research into the correlation of the moons phases and our earthquakes. I leave a couple of links that lead to the research being done.

physicsworld.com...

adsabs.harvard.edu...

reply to post by exile1981


China is her own worst enemy. I think the powers around the world know this....no need to aim anything at China. The Maoist thinking will hold her back...too many shortcuts. World powers learn from their mistakes..she has a long way to go.

reply to post by badmedia



I feel sorrow when bumping onto posts such as yours.
Its really startling how some people are left 100% brainwashed into the modern reality of things reconong this is all normal and ok...

Guess what! Unfortunately it is not and mankind has been digging its own grave through lack of respect to the fellow Earthlings and the environment.
One such minor lack of respect is demonstrated by the harshness of your post reply to such a good thread by questioningall in quality and information that is also well researched and well presented.

reply to post by SaraThustra


...continuing from above,

today we are overwhelmed by a stream of information that flows in such rates that its not possible anymore to follow let alone judge whether that information is objective or a mere part of a larger propaganda plan set up for you. It is becoming increasingly common to be clouded be this information overload, as you were in this case.
Its is a blessing though that science is not as subjective as the modern flow of information but rather objective in its entirety and to all the extend of its current reach.
As such you should pay attention and respect to knowledgeable and highly ranked contributors of quality content such as Phage and questioningall are.
This is even more important when you personaly try to put science in simple words that come to be false in the end...
Science is not a simple thing. Neither is our world.

Respect the science and learn from highly respected people.

I have to say you have a TON of information here and some of it is repeated. I suggest the next time you do this sort of thing you put a summary as your last post and allow users to read either type of information. I was patient enough to read about 2 of your posts, I doubt others would even care that much. Although I like your point I believe it is drowned out by the amount of information.

reply to post by questioningall


Hello

You should not feel intimadated by such ignorant posts at all.

Sometimes people stumble uppon gold only to dismiss it as some cheaper metal due to their ignorance.

It has happened to me in the ... still doing such thing thraed below.

It can really be of dissapointment but those negating views are only the result of lack of information and knowledge.

When i first came along ATS i was once advised: Make the best out of it!
Its an unfortunate reality that some cannot or do not have the tools to make the best out of it.

Anyway my two cents were off topic so i will let go for now as i do not wish to derail the thread.

BE well!

GTG

reply to post by questioningall


wow! That was a bloody long read and very informative (maybe i would get more replies if my threads had tons of info and links!!). After reading all that.... i'm tired!

Anyway just goes to show all the mess us humans have created for ourselves (well, the chinese in this case). They obviously didn't think about the displacement of all these people when they started to build this Dam or maybe they knew what would happen by building this Dam.... they wanted to kill a load of chinese off!!! I really hope Greenpeace know of this.........

definate flag for this one

[edit on 21-7-2009 by TruthxIsxInxThexMist]

I am still reading this thread ( I am on page 2 now), but I just can't help it ..I truly want 2 say that this thread and the research you have made is amazing. If there are peepz in this forum complaining about the thread is too long or too much info, then they should swap over to another thread. Actually, they should stop visiting this page. Stop complaining for being lazy !
Show respect or just move along. This is truly great work and I didn't even heard of this dam till now. Now I understand why there are more earthquake activities in china. I would like to thank you for that and for bringing an intruiging subject on the plate.
Because of these threads...I just love ATS !!!

If the op makes so many crazy posts, then why do you people bother to read them?

The worlds ocean's tides are not a result of direct force, but force applied over time, a result of force applied in a rhythmic manner essentially causing the oceans to swing. Remember being a child and learning how to swing, shifting your weight back and forth, slowly moving higher and higher until you were swinging as high as the bars?

Still, to move all that water, we are talking about a lot of force. While the moon's gravitation pull is small in comparison with the sun, it is still significant enough to impact our tides.

How much force will this eclipse apply on the dam? Very little of course. Nobody is suggesting that the eclipse creates a massive gravitational beam in its shadow. What scientist will be trying to measure as the eclipse passes over the area is a small fluctuation in the Earths gravity, just enough to cause a pendulum swing to warble.

Could this warble take out the dam? Probably not, but it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Anyway, it is fun to explore the science and speculate, so lighten up people.