Freemasonry is unChristian

If the square and compasses are not "sacred", why is the Bible? They are each a Great Light of Masonry. Perhaps due to the symbolic nature of Masonry, even this terminology can be confusing, depending on how one defines "sacred". I would suggest that the things represented by the Bible, Square, and Compasses are sacred, while the physical items representing them on the Altar are not "sacred" as such. In other words, they are not treated like a Catholic priest would treat the consecrated host.

The Bible is sacred, because it is Holy Writ.

The square and compass are symbols, not sacred items. While respected, they certainly don't contain religious significance in the same vein that a consecrated host does in the Catholic Mass - which represents the Body of Jesus Christ to Catholics.

The original question was regarding religion versus the fraternal Masonic system. The square and compass are not religious items, nor are they sacred. They are symbolic only and hold no religious significance whatsoever.

Masons don't offer the square and compass to God, nor worship these items. They aren't of that nature - They are simple workmen tools designed to be symbolic.

I have to disagree strongly on this point. Masonic ritual and symbolism is full of mystery in the literal sense, not in the sense that Lodge proceedings are simply private.

First, the question regarding "mystery" was related to "sacred objects", not the ritual and symbolism of the degrees.

Put this in the context of the original question posed:

5. Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual, and which are connected in idea with the gods.

Masons have no sense of mystery, awe, sense of guilt, adoration towards the square and compass. They use these symbols to convey meaning - yes, agreed - but they are not designed to create guilt or adoration.

Masons don't worship and adore the square and compass, nor do they feel guilt towards these items.

You could, presumably, make a case that the ritual and symbolism holds mystery, but not the ritual objects themselves. In fact, the symbolic square and compass are quite thoroughly explained as to their purpose in Masonic ritual.

Actually, in virtually all approved versions of the Work, there are numerous formal prayers. These take place in both the opening and closing of the Lodge, as well as the actual degree work.

Yes there are prayers, but not in the same vein as the synagogue service nor as in the Catholic Mass. They are simply introductory prayers. No different than people saying grace before meals.

The ritual is replete with references to the Old Testament, but the ritual is NOT a prayer service. It is, however, a fraternal initiation - not a religious service such as the Catholic Mass, nor the Jewish synagogue service. They aren't even close in that regard.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09



The Bible is sacred, because it is Holy Writ.

The square and compass are symbols, not sacred items.

The Bible is considered holy writ to some, but not all. In Freemasonry, it is a symbol of divinity, as the square and compasses are also symbols.

The square and compass are not religious items, nor are they sacred. They are symbolic only and hold no religious significance whatsoever.

This may be your opinion, but is not universal. A common interpretation is that the compasses represent man's spiritual nature, while the square represents earthly inclination. This is why, in some Rites of Masonry, when one is asked "Are you a Master Mason", the reply is "I have passed from the square to the compasses".

Masons don't offer the square and compass to God, nor worship these items. They aren't of that nature - They are simple workmen tools designed to be symbolic.

The Bible is symbolic in Masonic Lodges as well, but assumes at least as quasi-sacred significance.

You could, presumably, make a case that the ritual and symbolism holds mystery, but not the ritual objects themselves. In fact, the symbolic square and compass are quite thoroughly explained as to their purpose in Masonic ritual.

I would have to disagree with you on this point, and agree with Pike and Mackey. Webb and Cross, who are the chief authors of the modern lectures, do not appear to have understood the inner significance of those symbols, and simply invented their own meanings. For example, both seem to not have known that these emblems appeared regularly in the mysterious symbolism of Alchemy.

Yes there are prayers, but not in the same vein as the synagogue service nor as in the Catholic Mass. They are simply introductory prayers. No different than people saying grace before meals.

I'm not sure what an "introductory prayer" is, but I do not see any reason to consider formal Masonic prayers inferior to formal Catholic ones.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Light,
I see all of your points, and I tend to agree with you, but your argument lends credence to the idea of FreeMasonry as a religion?!?

I don't believe it is a religion, and it is because of the subtle differences between symbolism and idolatry. Or sacred symbols vs. sacred items or idols. Our prayers are offered up for similar reasons as Catholic prayers, but they are different in some core way, and I don't know how to explain it.

Do you believe it is a religion? Please address that core premise of the OP in one way or the other so we can have a better understanding of your arguments.

Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by getreadyalready


Do you believe it is a religion?

I do not believe it is a religion in the sense that it competes with churches and other houses of worship for adherents.

I do however believe it is "spiritual", and in this sense may possess religious mystery. Freemasonry opens its doors to men of good character who come from all religions, and does not require them to change their religious beliefs. Yet it finds within itself certain things that all these men agree on, regardless of their own individual sectarian creeds.

reply to post by Masonic Light


I agree. I think the OP is technically correct that it is "un-Christian" in that it is not "of Christianity." It is "un" everything. The problem is that most readers of the headline cannot differentiate between "un-Christian" and "anti-Christian!"

These are entirely different things!!

Masonry can exist completely outside of Christianity, but it welcomes Christian members. It does not require anyone to have a declared religion of any sort, but it welcomes all who believe in one all-powerful deity!

That is why I constantly argue that if there were any religion that could be attributed to Masons, it would be Deitists. I normally expound on that concept to jab Christians a little. Most American Christians are not actually Christians at all. They do not believe Christ is the "only" way to the father. They do not believe that all other religions are going to hell. Therefore, they are not following the teaching of Christ who said, "No one gets to the Father, but through Me."

FreeMasonry began as a concept of ensuring that its practicing members would never be enslaved by anybody. Thus the name "Free" "Masons". They kept a skill set secret from the outside world, and they protected it with a "blood oath" because if any body had spilled the secrets of their craft, it would endanger the entirety of the organization! The degrees illustrate how Mason's were able to work, travel, and receive a Master's wages. It had nothing to do with Religion. Speculative Mason's were able to keep this important secretive relationship after technology broke down the particular need for their skill set. The "higher" purpose of the workmen's tools was illustrated through the degree work, and a worldwide network of like-minded "free" men was already in place to continue their work.

So, I entirely agree that FreeMasonry is a spiritual and mysterious craft, but it is not a religion any more than Pro-Football is a religion.

The Bible is considered holy writ to some, but not all. In Freemasonry, it is a symbol of divinity, as the square and compasses are also symbols.

Okay, so you agree that the Bible, square, and compasses have symbolic value. Agreed. And I agree that the Bible - to most Masons - would be considered sacred, as many Masons are Christian, though not all.

Which actually proves my point regarding the religion vs. fraternity debate regarding Masonry. The square and compass are symbolic - We don't worship these items, and we don't "inculcate guilt" with these items. They are symbolic, which lends credence to the idea that Masonry is, in fact, not a religion.

A common interpretation is that the compasses represent man's spiritual nature, while the square represents earthly inclination.

That's a pretty ideal description of symbolism, not "sacredness".

Webb and Cross, who are the chief authors of the modern lectures, do not appear to have understood the inner significance of those symbols, and simply invented their own meanings.

I am not debating their symbolic meaning, Brother. You are stating repeatedly that the items - square and compass - are symbolic. Which proves my point that they are symbolic, not sacred.

I don't think you can compare the square and compass in the same vein as, say, the Ark of the Covenant, which was most definitely a sacred item. Or the Body of Christ in the form of the Eucharist, which Catholics would consider sacred.

The square and compass are symbolic, as you state so yourself.

I'm not sure what an "introductory prayer" is, but I do not see any reason to consider formal Masonic prayers inferior to formal Catholic ones.

I am not comparing the superiority nor inferiority of the prayers vis-a-vis Masonic prayers used in initiation rituals versus prayers said in a traditional Christian worship service (the Mass, for instance).

What I am saying is that the Masonic Ritual, if compared to say, the Jewish Siddur (synagogue prayers), is not even close in comparison of content and purpose.

The Blue Lodge degrees are ritual initiations. The Jewish synagogue service, and the Catholic Mass, for instance, are most definitely NOT ritual initiations. You can't even compare a Masonic ritual to a religious service because they are different in so many ways. Prayer being one of them in that the purpose of the Masonic ritual is not prayer in and of itself, but to initiate a Brother into Masonry.

Masonic ritual is not a prayer service in the same way that a religious service is a prayer service. Masonic ritual is an initiation into the Blue Lodge degrees - that's the sole purpose, not prayer - even though there are some prayers said in the Masonic ritual itself.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09



The Blue Lodge degrees are ritual initiations. The Jewish synagogue service, and the Catholic Mass, for instance, are most definitely NOT ritual initiations.

This is where it gets tricky, because in many ways, they are.

Take the Roman Catholic Church, for example. It has an official initiation rite in baptism. When one converts to the RCC, one must undergo the program called the "Rite of Christian Initiation For Adults". The ritual initiation in the RCC is a long and drawn process, involving catechisms and ceremonies, much like Masonry.

Masonic Light - The Catholic Mass, in and of itself, is not an initiation service.

Christian baptism, however, is an initiation service, and typically occurs when one is a newborn infant. I was not comparing Baptism to Masonic initiation - I was comparing the typical Sunday service, whether Catholic, Protestant, etc.

The question centered around whether a Masonic initiation constitutes a religion.

Based on the criteria posed, Masonry does not qualify as a religion, despite having symbols, rituals, and initiation ceremonies. Masonry is more appropriately deemed a fraternity, not a religion.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by BeccaFace

 

Actually, God sees all so really you can't hide anything from God, and anything said in the Oath pertains to keep secret from MAN, not God so their is no intent to hide anything from God.

You should get your facts straight. This is one reason I can't stand some theorists, they only get some facts, but try to glue them together as if that is how they are laid out. It's like someone taking scissors to a puzzle set to make the picture they want, not the one that is really there.

[edit on 9-8-2009 by KSigMason]

Out of the secrets and shadow stems corruption and deciet, wich is where in freemasonry it failes to be recognized as good and holy in the eyes of God. Wether it be hidden from man or God, it doesn't make a difference, it's hidden. Adam tried to hide from God, but God being all knowing as he is, knew where he was and still he was cast out of the Garden of Eden. Man is made in the image of God, so to hide anything period is blasphemic and disrespectful.
I'm not taking scissors to a puzzle set, the peices are all falling into place by the hand of God before me.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I would suggest you read it again

Originally posted by BeccaFace
I would suggest you read it again

I could read it a thousand times and it still will not make it appear in Duncan's Ritual. Why do you not just post a link to the text if you are so certain. It should be easy to find since you think it is in there.

Originally posted by BeccaFace
...so to hide anything period is blasphemic and disrespectful.

I hide my Ebay password; is that blasphemic(sic) and disrespectful?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


No but to hide secret religious handshakes of the freemasonry and to consider your beliefs made up of many beliefs, is. If you are not with God your are against him and since he demans he be the only God, the many different beliefs held in freemasonry does not suffice. I'll find that link for you I promise.

Originally posted by BeccaFace
No but to hide secret religious handshakes of the freemasonry

How do handshakes become religious and who makes that determination?

I also like how it went from 'to hide anything period' to only what you think.

..and to consider your beliefs made up of many beliefs, is.

My beliefs are not made up of many beliefs, my beliefs are strictly my own. You do understand that people have a God-given free will do you not?

If you are not with God your are against him and since he demans he be the only God...

I think God is not too worried about me since I believe that there is only one God and God's name is.....get ready.......God.

...the many different beliefs held in freemasonry does not suffice.

What are the 'many different beliefs held in Freemasonry'? Are you saying that there are Masons who do not believe in God?

I'll find that link for you I promise.

I seriously doubt it since it does not exist.






[edit on 12-8-2009 by AugustusMasonicus]

reply to post by BeccaFace

Out of the secrets and shadow stems corruption and deciet, wich is where in freemasonry it failes to be recognized as good and holy in the eyes of God.

Okay, I agree with you that freemasonry Isn't holy in the eyes of god but do you think that masons care about that? Just because something Isn't holy or good doesn't necessarily make it evil and bad does it?
From what I've learnt arguing and talking to the masons here on ATS is that masons have their own idealogy about existence and life in general. It may seem pretty bizarre to you and me but I don't think it's evil just because it doesn't follow the christian code of conduct.

Originally posted by BeccaFace


Out of the secrets and shadow stems corruption and deciet, wich is where in freemasonry it failes to be recognized as good and holy in the eyes of God.

Do you really believe you speak for God?

Adam tried to hide from God, but God being all knowing as he is, knew where he was and still he was cast out of the Garden of Eden. Man is made in the image of God, so to hide anything period is blasphemic and disrespectful.

A ridiculous analogy. The Hebrew creation myth has nothing to do with fraternal societies.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Okay, I agree with you that freemasonry Isn't holy in the eyes of god...

What is your rationalization for this comment? How do you presuppose to know what God feels is holy or not?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Okay, I agree with you that freemasonry Isn't holy in the eyes of god...

What is your rationalization for this comment? How do you presuppose to know what God feels is holy or not?

I don't, and neither can you, and that is what I am trying to say. From the various conversations (and heated arguments) I've had on here the one thing I have began to understand is that masons don't appear to care what we outsiders think about their fraternity as long as the accusations don't descend into farce.
Freemasons seem quite keen to protect and in some cases even promote their fraternity but very quickly lose patience with those who don't see the masons in the positive way that it's members do.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Okay, I agree with you that freemasonry Isn't holy in the eyes of god...

What is your rationalization for this comment? How do you presuppose to know what God feels is holy or not?

I don't, and neither can you...

I never posited an opinion for God regarding Freemasonry. You did not answer my question as to why you feel God would think Freemasonry is unholy.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by BeccaFace
...so to hide anything period is blasphemic and disrespectful.

I hide my Ebay password; is that blasphemic(sic) and disrespectful?

Ah, so it was God who hacked my Ebay account and ordered the Albert Pike Pez dispenser!!!