Freemasonry is unChristian

reply to post by CookieMonster09


Hi/
Casting stones and Exposing ones Hidden agendas are two different things!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It teaches a path to the Celestial Lodge

No, no it doesn't. The ritual of Freemasonry does say that certain qualities help prepare a man for the eternal life that lies after this one. But other than saying that the development of these qualities is recommended, it doesn't outline a plan of salvation.

Freemasonry runs into trouble with religion when narrow-minded bigots come to believe that only their particular brand of faith can lead to salvation. Because Freemasonry leaves to each man his own choice of faith, it seems to value all equally. This, to some, is intolerable. Should we not all convert to Southern Reformed Conservative Baptists of the Covenant of 1812 or be cast into the lake of fire? Frankly, any God that petty, in my view, isn't worth worshiping. Nonetheless, Freemasonry is /silent/ on religion beyond demanding that its members have a faith in a Supreme Being. In my jurisdiction (state), that is expressly a singular Supreme Being (monotheistic).

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

That's just not right. Every single member is required to express a belief in God. And yes, the word God is used.

In other words, Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion.

I find this idea truly intriguing. How is it that you jump from "Freemasonry insists on religious toleration among its members when in Lodge" to "Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion." You are entirely wrong.

Christians are taught that their faith is the rule and guide of their life. That they should consistently seek the moral guidance of their faith, practice its tenets, and seek to perfect their understanding of it.

Those of other faiths are likewise encouraged. Each man is expected to truly live his faith.

Why is that idea so hard to understand?

If by "inspiration" you mean tampering with what many people consider the word of God.

Tamper?

Significant parts of scripture are recited during the degrees. I don't consider that tampering.

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Good point.

Okay, so it would be your position now that every metaphor which was used to explain the person and ministry of Jesus is off-limits in every other context? We can no longer speak of anything being the "cornerstone" of anything else, because that would be denying Jesus? The Constitution can't, for example, be the cornerstone of our legal system because that would be usurping Jesus's analogy? Is that really your position?

The symbolism here is that a new member is placed at the location where a building begins because he has begun, in Freemasonry, to build. The symbolism is drawn, remember, from operative Masons who would have got the idea that new member is like the first stone in a new building.

It's funny how insincere Christians only see the "judge not" part. That passage is NOT saying not to judge - it's saying that what goes around comes around.

So now you feel you know enough about me to judge me to be an insincere Christian. Well, I for one hope that the measure that you receive will be considerably more generous than the measure which you have used to judge me. Because out of utter ignorance you have belittled my faith.

2 Corinthians 6:14

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

How do you determine a non-believer? By judging a man based on his behavior.

Thank you for the nice attempt at proof-texting. However, I've been ready for this one for years. The heart of this text is the word "unequally." It is admonishing the community of faith against unequal relationships with unbelievers. Note that it doesn't say 'disadvantageously'. It says 'unequally'. So, we must believe that Christians are obligated not to allow themselves to be subject unequally to unbelivers, nor should they be unequally in authority over unbelievers.

Luckily, in a Lodge, there is no inequality. Part of the point of the Fraternity is to allow men of every station to meet on the level. In point of fact, we invented the notion of meeting "on the level."

If, incidentally, your interpretation of that passage is correct, then I would argue that you cannot join the Scouts, a baseball team, or serve on a jury. Nor should you, in fact, be a citizen of this country. Nor, actually, should you be a member of ATS. All these institutions, like Freemasonry, are neutral as to the faith of their members.

Seriously, is this game benefiting anyone? If you don't want to become a Freemason because you believe that your fragile faith cannot stand being in the same room with someone of another faith, no Lodge in the world would want you to join. It isn't as if we jump out of dark corners, grab you by the neck and initiate you into the Fraternity without giving you a chance to run away. You have to make an effort -- in most cases, quite a considerable effort -- to become a Mason.

If it isn't for you, fine.

Just stop making up silly stories.


(edited to fix silly quote error -- ooops!)


[edit on 8-8-2009 by driley]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by driley]

[edit on 8-8-2009 by driley]

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

No we are not. You are an outsider looking in and twisting what you believe to be true, which it is not.

So Freemasons don't care about Hiram Abiff?

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

For one they ask Christians to betray their religion.

To join Freemasonry, you must state that you are joining of your own free will and accord. If you or anyone else would ever feel like you are betraying your religion, then you would never join the Craft. No one is ever forced to do anything in the Lodge.

Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Seems like you have your mind made up that Christians are hypocrites and Catholic priests sodomize little boys. That kinda contradicts your claims of tolerance, fellowship and all that other garbage. By "charitable works" do you mean having to accept money from another man to buy back your own wedding ring?

First, I don't tend to make blanket accusations against a group of individuals, as the original post suggests. Secondly, I find it somewhat humorous that the Catholic Church - by far the most vocal opponent of Freemasonry - has the audacity to criticize a great fraternity when it can't keep its own adherents in line, let alone its priesthood.

By charitable works, I refer to the millions of dollars that Masons donate every year to philanthropic works. Shriners Hospitals is just one example. There are others.

You have just made a blanket accusation against members of the Catholic Church

So then Freemasonry is the lesser evil

Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

How many ex-Oddfellows or ex-Elk have come forward with accusations? For what reason should anyone condemn any of those groups?

First, why are you singling out Freemasonry, and not these other fraternities? Surely these other organizations must have skeletons in their closets - I am sure that their secret rituals involve worshipping Satan and blood sacrifices, no? I mean, the Rotary, Elks, Moose, K of C, all meet behind closed doors in a private setting and engage in strange rituals, right? They must be Satanic, no?

I'm not singling out Freemasonry by any means. I just happen to have more information about Freemasonry than other groups.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

How is that?

Ask any Mason if he would help a brother in need, or if he would help a widow or orphan - or anyone in need for that matter. It is his duty and obligation to help others - It is built into the moral expectations of the fraternity that we help others.

By contrast, and of course, my own subjective personal opinion (which is what I was attesting to, by the way) has been that Masons are much, much more brotherly, friendly, open-minded, tolerant, respectful, and helpful than what is found in many, many so-called "Christian" churches. I have witnessed this both personally and professionally.

Christianity teaches that man is not saved by works, but by the blood of Christ

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Condescending, like the racists and elitists who inhabit the Masonic lodge.

Elitist? Racist? Proof please. Masons are very tolerant - It's built into the organization itself to accept others of differing faiths and religions.

Now, historically, if you want to talk racism, the Prince Hall Masons have remained a separate order of Masonry by choice, though there are some inroads even in this area as of recent date.

Elitist? No. Most Masons are everyday work a day folks. Farmers, lawyers, businessmen, insurance salesmen, bartenders, assembly line workers, policemen, firemen, etc.

The Prince Hall lodge wasn't created by choice. It was created to recruit Black people into the military. Albert Pike himself said that he would not sit in a lodge with Black Masons. When the Prince Hall lodge was first chartered, its members could not even confer the degrees.

Those blue-collar worker Masons-next-door are at the bottom of the totem pole, and must do the bidding for the higher-ups.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

It's a shame that you've never found friendship, fraternity, moral support and help in a church.

I never said that. What I said was that most churches could learn about friendship, fraternity, and moral support by their local Masonic Lodge. Not all churches. Some.

Most of the churches I've been to have been friendly, fraternal, moral, and everything you ascribe to the Freemasons. There are parishioners and churches that are corrupt (mostly Black churches), but then Christianity and "the black community" are not perfect either.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Don't even go there with the Shriners. They force you to make an oath to Allah on the Qur'an.

Too funny. No, they don't. Would love to see where you learned this from. The Shriner initiation is actually a series of practical jokes and pranks in an afternoon of levity. There is no force involved. Hilarious.

Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Yes, because a little bit of philanthropy goes a long way.

A long way towards what? Towards taking over the world and conquering all? Is that what we're after? Or are you just creating slogans for the fraternity?

Towards using the prophet motive

Originally posted by jokei
I think with the tabloid-style headline, we weren't going to be getting a balanced article here and seemingly the OP has little to back this statement up and neither have any of the contributors.

I am not a Mason - nor do I want to be...

Yet it's interesting that the Masons haven't descended to name-calling or unfounded statements.

Keep reading through the forum, you'll be surprised

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Evangelical

 

Masonry is not compatible with Christianity because it teaches a false Gospel.

You mean a Philosophy?

Colossians 2:8

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

First it teaches you go to heaven because of yourown endeavours in a rectitude of conduct and purity of life.

So if I am a model Human, I give to charity, I never commit a crime, I do everything I can to be a good person ... but I reject your fairy tales... I go to hell?

If this is the God you serve, he is the equivalent to a Satan that I would imagine. A TYRANT that demands servitude and devotion for the prospect of eternal life.. refuse to worship, you get cast to the pits of hell. Call me what you will, but even if I believed such a demonic God exist, I would rather burn in the fiery pits of Hell than bend my knee to a tyrannical, unjust malevolent God..

You're missing the point. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is important.

Originally posted by Rockpuck

It may be harmless but if you want to go through the motions of the Christian life, then do it ad a Christian not as a Freemason.

Masonry is a Philosophy. Christianity is a Religion. While I never expect the zealous to understand the difference, they rarely understand anything, one should know a Philosophy is not a path to salvation, it is a way of thinking and acting.

People like your self, and the damned Born Agains, that make me reject the pure evils of organized religion...

If you were a Mason, you certainly have left the path of righteousness some time ago.. throwing away rational thought, respect of peoples views, and the belief of freedom of religion .. enjoy your God sir, I would do better without it.

So you're an atheist?

1. Philosophy is a science first and foremost, and is not nor ever should be construed as moral guidance.

2. If speculative freemasonry were a philosophical system, you wouldn't know it from reading what its supporters have to say.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Indeed, in actuality if anyone were to ask my religion I would generally say "Deist" .. I still go to mass every once in a while, and I may have some "pagan" leanings (I love the histories, stories and spirituality) .. but I would never subscribe to any one religion, proclaim it to be fact and believe everyone else is going to Hell for not believing what I believe.

Satanic mass ?

Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

Patently untrue. Freemasons don't persuade anyone to join. They don't proselytize, and you won't find one knocking on your door. You have to inquire on your own, and be sincere. It is categorically false to suggest that we "persuade" anyone into joining, regardless of their religious faith.

You have just made a blanket accusation against members of the Catholic Church

No, I have not. The official position of the Catholic Church is quite clear: Catholics cannot become Freemasons or they face ex-communication from the Church. This is public record - It is not a "blanket" statement against any particular group of Catholics.

Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Again, where is your proof? Most of the charitable work - such as the Shriners Hospitals for instance - go to help children. You don't have to have any Masonic affiliation to be helped by the fraternity's charitable works - dyslexic children (Scottish Rite), burn victims, crippled children, etc.

In fact, I would say that the very large majority of philanthropy is to non-Masons. The only Masonic philanthropy that helps Masons that I can even think of are the nursing homes that we operate - usually 1 per state, if at all. And these represent only a small portion of our total philanthropy - and includes many non-Masons as well - such as the wives of Masons that are living in these nursing homes.

It sure would be nice if you checked your facts before making these patently ridiculous claims. It's absurd.

I'm not singling out Freemasonry by any means. I just happen to have more information about Freemasonry than other groups.

Well, wherever you are getting your information should be checked, because I have refuted nearly all of your ridiculous claims.

Christianity teaches that man is not saved by works, but by the blood of Christ

Not so. Yes, the blood of Christ provides salvation, but you can't live your life ignoring the Ten Commandments and expect to go to heaven. Just because Christ died for our sins, does not allow a Christian to create murder and mayhem without facing the eternal consequences.

Freemasonry makes no such claims on salvation whatsoever.

Those blue-collar worker Masons-next-door are at the bottom of the totem pole, and must do the bidding for the higher-ups.

How so? All Master Masons are "on the level" - meaning no one is better than the other, regardless of creed, religion, wealth, etc. It's the most egalitarian fraternity on the planet.

There is no "bidding for the higher-up's". Give me a break. What kind of bidding would one do exactly anyways? Say the ritual faster or more fluently? Do tell.

Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

No, there is no one forcing anyone to become a Shriner. We don't put a gun to someone's head and force them to join. Any oaths taken are taken of one's free will and accord - for all the Masonic degrees.

You are so misinformed on all of these matters, it makes my head spin. You really need to do some more reading - from Masonic sources I might add - that can give you more accurate information.

The Shriner initiation is a series of practical jokes and pranks.

Towards using the prophet motive

I am assuming you mean "profit" motive. First, Masonry is not a business - It is a fraternity. Big difference. I think you are confusing the fraternity with a Fortune 500 company with accountants, salespeople, and operations executives.

We don't produce a product, and we don't sell any services. You might have us confused with the K of C which has an insurance arm. We have no such thing.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

And where do you get this? There is no persuasion or coercion. We give the candidates the facts and they choose whether they join or not.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Examples of this? I'm sure the beneficiaries of the numerous Masonic charities would disagree with your statement.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

If you don't want to participate in the requirements of the group, then don't join. Not a hard concept.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
You're missing the point. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is important.

Christ is important to Freemasons, but just those who are Christian.

reply to post by oconnection


There's this country, it's called Russia. In 1917 Czar Nicholas II was overthrown. He was overthrown by Russian-born French lodge Freemasons ("Marxist Socialists") who threatened his life. They gobbled up a few of the the smaller countries around them and created a supercountry called the Soviet Union. It failed miserably. Not exactly philosophical.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the light. No one gets to the Father, but through me."

But that's just the christian way of looking at things. Masons don't recognise organised religion. They only ask that you believe in a supreme being, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is.

For a Christian, the "christian way of looking at things" is kinda important.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

From the Fellowcraft Degree:

Where for the first time your attention is Masonically drawn to the letter 'G' which stands for God...

The "G" stands for other things besides God.

Freemasons refers to the supreme being as deity or GAOTU, not God.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
But that's just the christian way of looking at things. Masons don't recognise organised religion. They only ask that you believe in a supreme being, it doesn't matter who the supreme being is.

Minor correction: Some individual Masons don't recognize organized religion. The majority do. Masonry as an organization doesn't affiliate with any particular religion, organized or not. Masonry teaches that if an individual member believes in an organized religion he should be active in his church; if the individual member is more Deistic, that he strive to have a better relationship with God through his solitary practice.

But Isn't that really just a play on words?
It's a bit like saying, "I'm not a plumber, I have no knowledge of plumbing but give me a minute and I'll fix that leak in your bathroom. . !"

You need a religious text to serve as a lesser light on your altar

Originally posted by driley
Freemasonry is no more a religion than being a Boy Scout.

Scouting also teaches morality. It, too, has its oaths. It, too, demands of its membership that they not be atheists. It also requires a neutral respect for the religious beliefs of its members.

So... why aren't ya'll screaming about the world-wide Scouting conspiracy? I mean, Masons may wear aprons, but those Boy Scouts actually practice things like marksmanship and outdoor survival skills. They /are/ planning for the the alien takeover.

The Boy Scouts have an inner circle called the Order of the Arrow

Originally posted by driley

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It teaches a path to the Celestial Lodge

No, no it doesn't.

According to Albert Mackey, yes it does.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by driley
The ritual of Freemasonry does say that certain qualities help prepare a man for the eternal life that lies after this one. But other than saying that the development of these qualities is recommended, it doesn't outline a plan of salvation.

It couldn't be any more clear that Freemasonry guarantees salvation by performing works.

Originally posted by driley
Freemasonry runs into trouble with religion when narrow-minded bigots come to believe that only their particular brand of faith can lead to salvation.

Are we calling names?

Originally posted by driley
Because Freemasonry leaves to each man his own choice of faith, it seems to value all equally. This, to some, is intolerable. Should we not all convert to Southern Reformed Conservative Baptists of the Covenant of 1812 or be cast into the lake of fire? Frankly, any God that petty, in my view, isn't worth worshiping. Nonetheless, Freemasonry is /silent/ on religion beyond demanding that its members have a faith in a Supreme Being. In my jurisdiction (state), that is expressly a singular Supreme Being (monotheistic).

You've just contradicted yourself

Originally posted by driley

The word "God" is not used in Freemasonry.

That's just not right. Every single member is required to express a belief in God. And yes, the word God is used.

By every single member expressing a belief in God, religion is being discussed in the lodge.
Then where else is God used beside the initiation rite of a Fellowcraft?

Originally posted by driley

In other words, Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion.

I find this idea truly intriguing. How is it that you jump from "Freemasonry insists on religious toleration among its members when in Lodge" to "Christians are taught that Christianity is equal in importance with every other religion." You are entirely wrong.

Christians are taught that their faith is the rule and guide of their life. That they should consistently seek the moral guidance of their faith, practice its tenets, and seek to perfect their understanding of it.

Those of other faiths are likewise encouraged. Each man is expected to truly live his faith.

Why is that idea so hard to understand?

I have no idea from where you pulled that first quote.

You're not getting it. Suppose you are on a date with a woman and you ask her what she likes in a man. She says that she likes a man who wears brown penny loafers, but doesn't specify what brand. This means that either she is being evasive, or she likes all brands of brown penny loafers.

1. Christianity teaches that only God is perfect, and that all man fall short of His glory and were given his only son to atone for their sins

2. Where does Freemasonry get that authority?

Originally posted by driley

If by "inspiration" you mean tampering with what many people consider the word of God.

Tamper?

Significant parts of scripture are recited during the degrees. I don't consider that tampering.

The story of Hiram Abiff is tampering

Originally posted by driley

Ephesians 2:19-22

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Good point.

Okay, so it would be your position now that every metaphor which was used to explain the person and ministry of Jesus is off-limits in every other context? We can no longer speak of anything being the "cornerstone" of anything else, because that would be denying Jesus? The Constitution can't, for example, be the cornerstone of our legal system because that would be usurping Jesus's analogy? Is that really your position?

Yes. There's no reason to describe the Constitution as the "cornerstone" of anything. The English language has millions of other words and phrases. Cells are described as the "building blocks" of the body, and carbon atoms is described as the "building blocks" of life, which are both inappropriate metaphors.

Originally posted by driley
The symbolism here is that a new member is placed at the location where a building begins because he has begun, in Freemasonry, to build. The symbolism is drawn, remember, from operative Masons who would have got the idea that new member is like the first stone in a new building.

A person "begins" when he comes out of the womb. The Masonic lodge is not a man factory

Originally posted by driley

It's funny how insincere Christians only see the "judge not" part. That passage is NOT saying not to judge - it's saying that what goes around comes around.

So now you feel you know enough about me to judge me to be an insincere Christian. Well, I for one hope that the measure that you receive will be considerably more generous than the measure which you have used to judge me. Because out of utter ignorance you have belittled my faith.

Looks like it's time to break out the canoe ...

Originally posted by driley

2 Corinthians 6:14

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

How do you determine a non-believer? By judging a man based on his behavior.

Thank you for the nice attempt at proof-texting. However, I've been ready for this one for years. The heart of this text is the word "unequally." It is admonishing the community of faith against unequal relationships with unbelievers. Note that it doesn't say 'disadvantageously'. It says 'unequally'. So, we must believe that Christians are obligated not to allow themselves to be subject unequally to unbelivers, nor should they be unequally in authority over unbelievers.

The second part says "for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?" To a Christian, non-Christians are unrighteous.

Originally posted by driley
Luckily, in a Lodge, there is no inequality. Part of the point of the Fraternity is to allow men of every station to meet on the level. In point of fact, we invented the notion of meeting "on the level."

You've just proved my point: Freemasons believe that all religions are equal.

Originally posted by driley
If, incidentally, your interpretation of that passage is correct, then I would argue that you cannot join the Scouts, a baseball team, or serve on a jury. Nor should you, in fact, be a citizen of this country. Nor, actually, should you be a member of ATS. All these institutions, like Freemasonry, are neutral as to the faith of their members.

Misquoting and FUD

Originally posted by driley
Seriously, is this game benefiting anyone?

If it's not benefitting you, that's understandable.

Originally posted by driley
If you don't want to become a Freemason because you believe that your fragile faith cannot stand being in the same room with someone of another faith, no Lodge in the world would want you to join.

Jabs and accusations. Classic, really.

Originally posted by driley
It isn't as if we jump out of dark corners, grab you by the neck and initiate you into the Fraternity without giving you a chance to run away. You have to make an effort -- in most cases, quite a considerable effort -- to become a Mason.

If it isn't for you, fine.

Just stop making up silly stories.

It's not that easy. Many people join because they are pressured to, and NOT out of free will
More jabs. Looks like Freemasonry has failed to teach you lots of skills, including proper manners.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Freemasons persuade people that they would not betray their religion by joining, which is not exactly allowing people to join by their own free will and volition.

Patently untrue. Freemasons don't persuade anyone to join. They don't proselytize, and you won't find one knocking on your door. You have to inquire on your own, and be sincere. It is categorically false to suggest that we "persuade" anyone into joining, regardless of their religious faith.

By begging for sympathy, you are trying to persuade people to support your agenda.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

You have just made a blanket accusation against members of the Catholic Church

No, I have not. The official position of the Catholic Church is quite clear: Catholics cannot become Freemasons or they face ex-communication from the Church. This is public record - It is not a "blanket" statement against any particular group of Catholics.

This is so off, it's laugable. Your accusation was about how corrupt they are.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Philanthropic works that are used mostly to help other Masons

Again, where is your proof? Most of the charitable work - such as the Shriners Hospitals for instance - go to help children. You don't have to have any Masonic affiliation to be helped by the fraternity's charitable works - dyslexic children (Scottish Rite), burn victims, crippled children, etc.

In fact, I would say that the very large majority of philanthropy is to non-Masons. The only Masonic philanthropy that helps Masons that I can even think of are the nursing homes that we operate - usually 1 per state, if at all. And these represent only a small portion of our total philanthropy - and includes many non-Masons as well - such as the wives of Masons that are living in these nursing homes.

It sure would be nice if you checked your facts before making these patently ridiculous claims. It's absurd.

These are just a bunch of generalities. I'm sure that if YOU presented facts, they would be fleshed out not to be what you represent them to be.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

I'm not singling out Freemasonry by any means. I just happen to have more information about Freemasonry than other groups.

Well, wherever you are getting your information should be checked, because I have refuted nearly all of your ridiculous claims.

When you actually start using logical arguments, then we can talk about who's refuting what.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Christianity teaches that man is not saved by works, but by the blood of Christ

Not so. Yes, the blood of Christ provides salvation, but you can't live your life ignoring the Ten Commandments and expect to go to heaven. Just because Christ died for our sins, does not allow a Christian to create murder and mayhem without facing the eternal consequences.

Freemasonry makes no such claims on salvation whatsoever.

The Ten Commandments are God's words. Disobeying them is committing sin.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Those blue-collar worker Masons-next-door are at the bottom of the totem pole, and must do the bidding for the higher-ups.

How so? All Master Masons are "on the level" - meaning no one is better than the other, regardless of creed, religion, wealth, etc. It's the most egalitarian fraternity on the planet.

Not true, there is an inner circle.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
There is no "bidding for the higher-up's". Give me a break. What kind of bidding would one do exactly anyways? Say the ritual faster or more fluently? Do tell.

Certain words and phrases that are not taught in regular ritual and are imparted only to trusted Masons.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner.

No, there is no one forcing anyone to become a Shriner. We don't put a gun to someone's head and force them to join. Any oaths taken are taken of one's free will and accord - for all the Masonic degrees.

You are so misinformed on all of these matters, it makes my head spin. You really need to do some more reading - from Masonic sources I might add - that can give you more accurate information.

The Shriner initiation is a series of practical jokes and pranks.

That's not what I said. Read it again.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

Towards using the prophet motive

I am assuming you mean "profit" motive. First, Masonry is not a business - It is a fraternity. Big difference. I think you are confusing the fraternity with a Fortune 500 company with accountants, salespeople, and operations executives.

We don't produce a product, and we don't sell any services. You might have us confused with the K of C which has an insurance arm. We have no such thing.

No, I mean prophet motive, meaning that he's a prophet so he gets special priviliges that the worker bees don't get.

Who's right? Who's wrong? Is everyone right? What is the Truth?

Please consider the following points:

1) What "is" considered religion.
2) Some bits of the Gospel of Matthew, to stir discussion.

Dictionaries have made many attempts to define the word religion:

1. Barns & Noble (Cambridge) Encyclopedia (1990):

"...no single definition will suffice to encompass the varied sets of traditions, practices, and ideas which constitute different religions."

2. The Concise Oxford Dictionary (1990):

"Human recognition of superhuman controlling power and especially of a personal God entitled to obedience"

4 Webster's New World Dictionary (Third College Edition):

"any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy."

Source: www.religioustolerance.org...


Mattew 5:33-37

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Mathew 7:22)

[edit on 8-8-2009 by infobrazil]

By begging for sympathy, you are trying to persuade people to support your agenda.

Where and when have I ever "begged for sympathy"? Stating categorical facts and correcting your errors is hardly begging for sympathy.

And what "agenda" do I serve exactly? I sure would like to know, because I missed the "agenda" meeting for my "talking points". People will be persuaded by logic, facts, and truth - not by your false insinuations and bogus lies about Masonry that you continue to spout with no proof, evidence, or references whatsoever.

This is so off, it's laugable. Your accusation was about how corrupt they are.

I stated the following: "...I find it somewhat humorous that the Catholic Church - by far the most vocal opponent of Freemasonry - has the audacity to criticize a great fraternity when it can't keep its own adherents in line, let alone its priesthood."

I never once voiced a statement regarding "corruption" in the Church. I was simply stating that the Church is a vocal opponent of Masonry, and has been for a long time now. I found it ironic that the Church would oppose Freemasonry when many of its own leadership are reported to be Masons (read Fr. Malachi Martin).

It is factually true - and has been for many decades if not centuries now - that the Catholic Church publicly opposes Freemasonry. You need to check your facts, because you obviously are unaware of historical Catholic teaching on this matter.

These are just a bunch of generalities. I'm sure that if YOU presented facts, they would be fleshed out not to be what you represent them to be.

No, these are not generalities. Go ahead and Google "Masonic Charities", and anyone can see that Masons are very heavily involved in philanthropic works that benefit the public - primarily children and veterans.

By far, the largest philanthropic work - in terms of percentages - would be the Shriners Hospitals, which provide relief to burn victims - specifically, children. Just about any American has seen public advertising for these hospitals - which are free and open to the public.

Go here: www.masonicinfo.com... -- for a detailed list of all of the Masonic charities.

Let's see. Free dental care to handicapped children. Free tutorial services for dyslexic children. A hospital volunteer program serving 157 Veterans Admin. Hospitals. Scottish Rite Children's Hospitals. Scholarships for teenage high school grads.

How is all this charity work "only directed at Masons" as you claim?

This is public information. Go ahead and prove me wrong.

When you actually start using logical arguments, then we can talk about who's refuting what.

I have answered each of your questions carefully and logically. I am not the one spewing forth lie after lie on a subject of which it is quite obvious you are ill-informed. Just look at your ridiculous claim above, where you claim that all of the Masonic philanthropic work is geared towards helping only Masons. It's laughable. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The Ten Commandments are God's words. Disobeying them is committing sin.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Which is it? According to your earlier post, man is saved by the blood of Christ, not obedience to the Ten Commandments. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth now.

Not true, there is an inner circle.

No. All Master Masons meet "on the level" - meaning we are all equal regardless of our creed, religion, wealth, etc. Masonry is exceptionally egalitarian in this manner.

And what is the name of this "inner circle"? Will they ever stop by my Lodge to introduce themselves? I can assure you, that Lodges are governed and managed at the local level, and democratically governed with a new Master Mason leading the Lodge every year.

Certain words and phrases that are not taught in regular ritual and are imparted only to trusted Masons.

Funny. And.. Let me guess... You happen to know a guy, that knows a guy, who's brother's uncle's cousin's friend's second nephew knows these "certain words and phrases". Too funny.

And you can substantiate this non-sensical claim with what exactly?

The 3 main degrees - Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason are the main degrees in Masonry. Any degrees above these are further knowledge about Masonry - but these 3 degrees are primary to any other degrees. These degrees are also easily accessible to anyone with a computer tied to the Internet.

That's not what I said. Read it again.

You stated, "Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner."

Again, as another poster has already verified, no one is ever forced to become a Shriner. There is no coercion. No persuasion. No sales pitch. People join on their own free will and accord, and attest to such publicly before taking any Masonic degree.

Where is your proof? As always, you have none whatsoever.

No, I mean prophet motive, meaning that he's a prophet so he gets special priviliges that the worker bees don't get.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You are saying that somewhere in the "higher levels of Masonry" (wherever that is), there is a "higher up" that is known to be a "prophet"? Oh, really?

Well, which degree is this so-called prophet, and in what Lodge does he operate? How many prophets do you claim to exist? And just what exactly are his special privileges?

That's a new one. I have read Masonic history for many years now, and never once read about there being a "Prophet" in Masonry. I suppose that you could possibly find a vague reference to a prophet in one of the degrees, but never have I ever heard of the title of "Prophet" being used from a practical level.

Are you sure you are not confusing Masonry with the Old Testament prophets? Such as Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.?

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


1) Freemasonry uses the term Grand Architect of the Universe (GAOTU) as a synonym for God because it is an appropriate term that works within the symbolism derived from the building arts.

2) All three Blue Lodge degrees speak of the necessity of faith in God.

3) I know I got snide at took a few jabs at you. But you are slandering an organization that has been force for significant good in my life and in the lives of many, many good men. Hearing the same lies repeated over and over becomes tiresome.

4) I think your idea that no term that was analogously applied to Jesus in Scripture should be ever applied to anything else in analogy is absurd. But, if that's your thing, I guess that's your thing. Good luck with that.

4) I have told you the simple, unadorned truth. It is apparent that nothing I can possibly say will change your mind or even cause you to consider the possibility that you may be wrong. I'm not going to continue to engage in this conversation -- it is a waste of my time, your energy, and the resources of ATS. If you do not wish to be a Freemason, please, don't become one. There is no reasons to seek admission to the Fraternity beyond admiration for the institution and a desire to improve oneself in Masonry. You don't want that. We get it.

5) Anyone who feels 'pressured' to join a Masonic Lodge should immediately call the Grand Lodge of the state in which they reside and speak to someone in the Grand Secretary's office. Explain your circumstances and that you do not wish to be a Mason and are being pressured to join. In most jurisdictions, pressuring someone to join is a violation of the rules of the Grand Lodge. In those where it isn't explicitly an offense, it will still be viewed as a gross violation of tradition.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

The "G" stands for other things besides God.

Freemasons refers to the supreme being as deity or GAOTU, not God.

Nice attempt at misdirection. You are the one who said God does not appear in Masonic ritual. I gave you one place of many in which it does. Instead of saying, "Sorry fellow Above Top Secret members, I was talking out of my posterior", you resort to posting non-sequitors.

Do you need more examples to assist you in retracting your erroneous statement?