Freemasonry is unChristian

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Saurus

 

When the Nazi trials were taken place and the horrors of the concenration camps came to light, ordinary German soldiers tried to distance themselves from the horror because they said they weren't aware of it or knew anything about it. It fell on deaf ears because without their membership to the Nazi party, and without their man power- belonging to the army etc, then the mass murder of jews couldn't have happened. They were guilty by association. . . just like masons would be if the fraternity were ever found guilty of a crime.

By that logic everyone affiliated with the US is guilty of the atrocities in Iraq, Afghan, and around the world. We all pay taxes, and support a "volunteer" military! Therefore the crimes of the few would not be possible without the support of the many! Are you ready to be tried for your crimes?

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


You talk about manpower needed for the atrocities and mass murder. This is large scale.

On the other hand, you say the whatever is going on in freemasonry is happening on a tiny scale, so much so that over 99% of freemasons don't know about it. So tiny, in fact , that it could be a few individuals at the top.

I cannot believe that you would suggest that an organization could be judged by the actions of a few individuals by association.

Perhaps if most masons knew about it...

reply to post by Saurus


But it's a pyramid! The few at the top who may be trouble are supported by the hundreds of thousands below them. Without your support there would be no brotherhood.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Saurus

 

But it's a pyramid! The few at the top who may be trouble are supported by the hundreds of thousands below them. Without your support there would be no brotherhood.

So, I can refuse to pay my taxes, because I do not want to be tried for warcrimes down the road? I don't want to enable the atrocities, but I don't want to go to jail for tax evasion either!

You stated that their are precedents in the Nazi War Criminal trials, so I should be able to find an attorney that can put together a good defense using said precedents, and I won't have to pay taxes!! WOO HOO!

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by Saurus

 

But it's a pyramid! The few at the top who may be trouble are supported by the hundreds of thousands below them. Without your support there would be no brotherhood.

So, I can refuse to pay my taxes, because I do not want to be tried for warcrimes down the road? I don't want to enable the atrocities, but I don't want to go to jail for tax evasion either!

You stated that their are precedents in the Nazi War Criminal trials, so I should be able to find an attorney that can put together a good defense using said precedents, and I won't have to pay taxes!! WOO HOO!

There is actually a thread here on ATS that argues that very point- that you don't have to pay your taxes, etc.
I think you're taking the discussion to the next levele but I have heard arguments such as yours put forward as a reason why someone shouldn't cough up their tax money.
As for finding an attorney to help you. . . I wouldn't bother as your attorney may be a mason!

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

I wouldn't bother as your attorney may be a mason!

We do have some standards!! We could never let that happen!

Good and Upright Man and Mason....pffft!



I honestly don't know of any Attorney / Mason's in our district, but we do have some Tax Collectors and Politicians!

reply to post by getreadyalready

I honestly don't know of any Attorney / Mason's in our district, but we do have some Tax Collectors and Politicians!

Proof, if ever it was needed that masons are evil!

Just as long as you don't have any Parking Wardens within the fraternity. This would spell the end of the world as we know it. . .

i don't understand what secret or what they would be doing behind the backs of the other 99% of the other masons. What is it exactly that they are doing? i like how non-masons and anti-masons "know" more about our fraternity then the actual brethren. Masonry is set-up so that there is no one control of power. from the worshipful master in the lodge to the Grand Lodge officers, they all have a term in which they return back to the ranks when their term is up(except for the secretary as far as i know..and I'm in California). It is made so that no one person has control.

reply to post by bushidomason


Look buddy...

The "Higher Ups" ... They eat babies, kick kittens and run the World

Proof? No, I don't have proof.

Who? .. I dunno that either..

Where? Everywhere!

How? ......... I dunno that either...

Can't believe you asked what do they do .. everyone knows that.

reply to post by Rockpuck


oh good sir thank you..sorry...silly me what was i thinking asking such a rhetorical question as that one....my apologies lol

Originally posted by CookieMonster09

By begging for sympathy, you are trying to persuade people to support your agenda.

Where and when have I ever "begged for sympathy"? Stating categorical facts and correcting your errors is hardly begging for sympathy.

Saying that Masons do charity "work" and in general are "good people" is begging for sympathy. If Freemasons were such terrific people, then nobody would have much to say about them.

Sure, Freemasons don't knock on people's doors looking for donations, but then again they make fundraisers, CHIP stands at the fair, public ceremonies, and other sorts of PR moves.

And what "agenda" do I serve exactly? I sure would like to know, because I missed the "agenda" meeting for my "talking points". People will be persuaded by logic, facts, and truth - not by your false insinuations and bogus lies about Masonry that you continue to spout with no proof, evidence, or references whatsoever.

It's an agenda that does not benefit you, unfortunately. You can read the other threads on ATS to see what that is.

This is so off, it's laugable. Your accusation was about how corrupt they are.

I stated the following: "...I find it somewhat humorous that the Catholic Church - by far the most vocal opponent of Freemasonry - has the audacity to criticize a great fraternity when it can't keep its own adherents in line, let alone its priesthood."

I never once voiced a statement regarding "corruption" in the Church. I was simply stating that the Church is a vocal opponent of Masonry, and has been for a long time now. I found it ironic that the Church would oppose Freemasonry when many of its own leadership are reported to be Masons (read Fr. Malachi Martin).

It is factually true - and has been for many decades if not centuries now - that the Catholic Church publicly opposes Freemasonry. You need to check your facts, because you obviously are unaware of historical Catholic teaching on this matter.

Your accusation was that Catholic priests "sodomize little boys."
www.abovetopsecret.com...

These are just a bunch of generalities. I'm sure that if YOU presented facts, they would be fleshed out not to be what you represent them to be.

No, these are not generalities. Go ahead and Google "Masonic Charities", and anyone can see that Masons are very heavily involved in philanthropic works that benefit the public - primarily children and veterans.

By far, the largest philanthropic work - in terms of percentages - would be the Shriners Hospitals, which provide relief to burn victims - specifically, children. Just about any American has seen public advertising for these hospitals - which are free and open to the public.

Go here: www.masonicinfo.com... -- for a detailed list of all of the Masonic charities.

Let's see. Free dental care to handicapped children. Free tutorial services for dyslexic children. A hospital volunteer program serving 157 Veterans Admin. Hospitals. Scottish Rite Children's Hospitals. Scholarships for teenage high school grads.

How is all this charity work "only directed at Masons" as you claim?

This is public information. Go ahead and prove me wrong.

Funny, a lot of "charity" events held by Freemasons are actually runs, golf tournaments, car races and "circuses" (as in "bread and circuses").

The UGLE charity page contains charities that are openly Freemason-only.

The home page of The F&AM Grand Lodge of Washington, mentions their credit card on the same page as their charity claims.

When you actually start using logical arguments, then we can talk about who's refuting what.

I have answered each of your questions carefully and logically. I am not the one spewing forth lie after lie on a subject of which it is quite obvious you are ill-informed. Just look at your ridiculous claim above, where you claim that all of the Masonic philanthropic work is geared towards helping only Masons. It's laughable. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

You've just contradicted yourself.

The Ten Commandments are God's words. Disobeying them is committing sin.

Now you are contradicting yourself. Which is it? According to your earlier post, man is saved by the blood of Christ, not obedience to the Ten Commandments. You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth now.

Straw-man argument

Not true, there is an inner circle.

No. All Master Masons meet "on the level" - meaning we are all equal regardless of our creed, religion, wealth, etc. Masonry is exceptionally egalitarian in this manner.

And what is the name of this "inner circle"? Will they ever stop by my Lodge to introduce themselves? I can assure you, that Lodges are governed and managed at the local level, and democratically governed with a new Master Mason leading the Lodge every year.

Masons are not "egalitarian." They may tell you so and act polite to your face, but it's just a bunch of lies.

Yo've probably already seen them in a lodge meeting, but of course you wouldn't admit it over the Internet.

Certain words and phrases that are not taught in regular ritual and are imparted only to trusted Masons.

Funny. And.. Let me guess... You happen to know a guy, that knows a guy, who's brother's uncle's cousin's friend's second nephew knows these "certain words and phrases". Too funny.

And you can substantiate this non-sensical claim with what exactly?

The 3 main degrees - Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft, and Master Mason are the main degrees in Masonry. Any degrees above these are further knowledge about Masonry - but these 3 degrees are primary to any other degrees. These degrees are also easily accessible to anyone with a computer tied to the Internet.

Yet more jabs. Are you afraid of the truth getting out?

That's not what I said. Read it again.

You stated, "Yeah there is force - if you don't do the oath you can't become a Shriner."

Again, as another poster has already verified, no one is ever forced to become a Shriner. There is no coercion. No persuasion. No sales pitch. People join on their own free will and accord, and attest to such publicly before taking any Masonic degree.

Where is your proof? As always, you have none whatsoever.

Then you should know better that I do why people even want to join the Shrine.

No, I mean prophet motive, meaning that he's a prophet so he gets special priviliges that the worker bees don't get.

Okay, so let me get this straight. You are saying that somewhere in the "higher levels of Masonry" (wherever that is), there is a "higher up" that is known to be a "prophet"? Oh, really?

Well, which degree is this so-called prophet, and in what Lodge does he operate? How many prophets do you claim to exist? And just what exactly are his special privileges?

That's a new one. I have read Masonic history for many years now, and never once read about there being a "Prophet" in Masonry. I suppose that you could possibly find a vague reference to a prophet in one of the degrees, but never have I ever heard of the title of "Prophet" being used from a practical level.

Are you sure you are not confusing Masonry with the Old Testament prophets? Such as Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc.?

It is a sociological phenomenon. You are obviously too much in denial to want to know more.


[edit on 29-8-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

There will always be people that bad mouth everyone. Because someone bad mouths someone doesn't make it true, nor does it prove that they are bad people. 100% popularity will never happen; that's a dream.

They stand at fairs? Who cares. There are dozens of groups, businesses, organizations, and clubs that do the same thing.

How do you know all this? How do you know we lie? I will say that it was stated correctly when others have said we meet on the level. It's actually stated during the ceremonies.

I'm actually curious as to what the purpose of your post was, as it did not prove anything. All you did was insult.

reply to post by vcwxvwligen

I have a huge mistrust of freemasonry but not of the masons themselves. I don't think the masons themselves realise just how dodgy the fraternity is because all they see is brotherly love and like minded individuals who are doing work in their community and charity work. I can't believe that an ordinary family guy steps through the doors of his local lodge and suddenly becomes a satanic child abusing monster hell bent on world domination!
I prefer to think of the lodges as huge catchment nets who attract wealthy up and coming businessmen, politicians, lawyers, etc, who they can syphon off, control, and then prepare for success so that when they are in positions of power they can work for and do the bidding of the Illuminati. That's where the conspiracy lies, not in the delusions of those who think that every mason is somehow in on the bigger secret. . .

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


We as masons, are in fact "masonry". We make up the ranks and we are the ones who are elected to govern our lodges. Who is "they"? I realize that is largely rhetorical, but if there is a "they" then we(the regular masons) have no idea who "they" are. And therefore, "they" are not masonry. "They" may be masons, just as the founding fathers were made up of some masons. that didn't make the American Revolution a masonic movement. It just exemplified some of the masonic ideals into like minded people of that era.

To further our discussion, I would like your opinion of what it is that "they"represent and what are some of their goals/missions? I think the world is guided by an elite few and largely influenced by the Vatican. I have nothing other than the usual dribble to offer as proof of that claim.

First of all let me begin this by saying that Freemasonry is not a relgious order. It is however a system of morality and ethical conduct based of "religious teachings". That is to say, it draws from many truths that resonable men of all faiths may agree. Freemasonry has suffered manifold attacks on its aims, message and ideas from its early beginings until the present day. It teachs individual responsibility and respect of others and their beliefs... Isnt that a subversive idea?!

Having said this, I can speak from a standpoint of authority and knowledge on this topic, given that I have been a Freemason for over 20 years, a Blue Lodge Past Master twice over, a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason and a Most Wise Master, Chapter of Rose Croix SR. I am also and York Rite Mason as well.

The Masonic Fraternity does not teach that a man is resurrected in the first degree or Entered Apprentice degree. Hiram Abiff was not brought back to life at all. According to Masoinc mythology, his DEAD body was recovered from a shallow grave where it had been hidden by those who had murdered him. The body of Abiff was taken from the makeshift grave and taken for more suitable burial. That is the truth. That covers that error...

Masonry does teach however, that if one is Christian...be truly Christian. If one is Jewish...be truly Jewish. If one is Muslim...be truly Muslim etc.. etc... ( Again more subversive ideology... lol )

So in closing, let me say as a current leader within the Fraternity and as a man of great faith as well as a scholar... Freemasonry is a universal organization founded on the principles of brotherhood and the belief in the immortal soul as created by one supreme and loving Father.

reply to post by network dude

The "They" I'm referring to are groups like the Bilderburg group which is made up of influential businessmen, bankers, politicians etc, the very people who are attracted to masonry and may have passed through the fraternity's doors. I forget who it was now but one mason said to me that people like this often didn't stick around for long and it made me wonder whether they had been picked off early on to be groomed for power and to do the elites bidding. Like you said, I also wouldn't mind betting that organised religion, in all it's many forms, is involved in planning out the future history of the planet. You see, I don't think history just happens. . ! I think these people are pre-writing it and planning future wars and disasters and acts of terrorism to achieve their aims of world domination.
The problem, like you say, is proving it. . .

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
satanic child abusing monster hell bent on world domination!

Really? That's what you're pulling now?

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I prefer to think of the lodges as huge catchment nets who attract wealthy up and coming businessmen, politicians, lawyers, etc, who they can syphon off, control, and then prepare for success so that when they are in positions of power they can work for and do the bidding of the Illuminati.

Yes, my $36,000 a year really brings in the NWO funds.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by network dude

 

The "They" I'm referring to are groups like the Bilderburg group which is made up of influential businessmen, bankers, politicians etc, the very people who are attracted to masonry and may have passed through the fraternity's doors. I forget who it was now but one mason said to me that people like this often didn't stick around for long and it made me wonder whether they had been picked off early on to be groomed for power and to do the elites bidding. Like you said, I also wouldn't mind betting that organised religion, in all it's many forms, is involved in planning out the future history of the planet. You see, I don't think history just happens. . ! I think these people are pre-writing it and planning future wars and disasters and acts of terrorism to achieve their aims of world domination.
The problem, like you say, is proving it. . .

I know members that are not rich, not "powerful", not famous, not sucessful businessmen, not older than 30 and not enlightened.

Seems that there are lodges JUST FOR doctors and JUST FOR lawyers in my city.

I also heard from a man that he had to show his bank extract to apply for a fraternity entrance.

reply to post by infobrazil


"Seems" and 'I heard' do not a compelling argument make. Perhaps you could be so kind as to identify the doctors and lawyers Lodges by name and number.

reply to post by infobrazil

Actually you cannot be denied membership because of your job. Nor is a bank extract needed. That's just a far-fetched rumor.