Freemasonry is unChristian

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


everything I write on this board is preserved for all to see. If I post a lie, it will be found out. I may post something in error, but not a lie. If I can't tell you something because of my obligation, I will simply say that. You will probably never be happy with any answer given you by a mason because you have a preconceived notion of what you think is true. No matter how blatently wrong you are. And aparenty your ego or pride will not let you admit to being wrong. So you will travel this forum with a troll suit on and all will see that. It's a shame because you seem at times to have intelligence and appear to be a good debator when you don't let your ego cloud your judgement.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
It's heresay of course that because he was a Mason he was not scrutinized as closely as he ought to have been, but maybe there's something to it..

So do the honourable thing and research it. Call the cops who did the initial interview and get their story. Perish the thought that there wasn't compelling evidence at the time.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Actually, Freemasonry teaches that it's counter-productive to only do the "right thing" without doing an equal and opposite wrong thing.

Wanna provide a citation for that out-there assertion? I'm usually on top of these things but I guess I must've missed that part of the degree.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by vcwxvwligen

 

everything I write on this board is preserved for all to see. If I post a lie, it will be found out. I may post something in error, but not a lie. If I can't tell you something because of my obligation, I will simply say that. You will probably never be happy with any answer given you by a mason because you have a preconceived notion of what you think is true. No matter how blatently wrong you are. And aparenty your ego or pride will not let you admit to being wrong. So you will travel this forum with a troll suit on and all will see that. It's a shame because you seem at times to have intelligence and appear to be a good debator when you don't let your ego cloud your judgement.

I think the masons often contradict each other when it comes down to the dreaded masonic secrets. We non masons are continually told the secrets are freely available on the web yet when someone posts these secrets and asks if these are what we are debating masons always so no! One mason will say the secrets are freely available while another will refuse to accept that anyone outside the lodge could know about those very same secrets. . . Or is it that they can't confirm that the secrets posted are the ones they have learnt in their meetings?

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


The secrets are readily available in any bookstore! Don't trust the internet sources, they are mostly "anti-mason" hogwash!

The problem is that our organization is mostly frivolous these days! The "blood oath" is worthless, nobody gets killed for sharing the secrets, so what is the point! History channel reported that there was 1 (one!) known murder regarding violating our oath. That occured in the late 1800's and quickly led to the founding of the Shriner's to do charitable work and repair the image of the FreeMasons!

Mason's disagree about the secrets, because many of us had hoped there was some level of authenticity to the rumors, and we hoped that what we learned would be valuable, and that our brother's would take it seriously enough to protect it from within and without!

Sadly, recruiting still goes on, because many lodges need the money.
Sadly, the secrets get shared in the most public ways (books and internet), because people get in little tiffs at their lodge and they leave, and they talk!
Sadly, just about anyone can join, because again, we need the money, so we are not nearly as picky as we should be when choosing candidates!
Sadly, our degree work has lost most of its symbolic virtues of floorwork, geometry, and "communicating that which cannot be taught!"
Sadly, we are lucky to get 10% of our members to attend meetings, so the camaraderie and "coaching" of the younger members by the older ones does not happen like it used too!
Sadly, our "obligations" are not taken seriously, and the severity of the penalty for violation is not only illegal, it is outdated, purely symbolic, and meaningless today!

So NO, Mason's don't disagree about the "Secrets" we just disagree about whether we were serious about everything we obligated ourselves to, and whether we are willing to sacrifice for the fraternity, and the answer is a resounding NO! Most Mason's are not willing to sacrifice anything more than a couple of hundred bucks a year, and/or an hour or two a month to keep the oldest and most respected fraternity in the world alive!!

reply to post by getreadyalready

The problem is that our organization is mostly frivolous these days! The "blood oath" is worthless, nobody gets killed for sharing the secrets, so what is the point! History channel reported that there was 1 (one!) known murder regarding violating our oath.

What about the masonic links of Roberto Calvi who was found hanging under Black Friars bridge in London in 1982. From what I've heard that was a masonic murder.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


I'm not familiar with it, but probably just rumors, or a personal vendetta. A true Masonic murder would be carried out according to our Obligation, and it would be fairly obvious, at least to Mason's!

There was a murder/suicide in California this year that was heart-wrenching. He killed his whole family and then himself, and then he put our universal call for help in his suicide not! If only he had done that before he killed his whole family!

Edit to add: Hanging would not be related to any of our Obligations.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by getreadyalready]

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


when I first read Duncan's Ritual, I was amazed that everything I was told to keep secret was there. Maybe not exactly as I learned it, but very close. I would suspect any mason would agree with that having seen the book. However, it doesn't teach you in the way you learn it in the lodge. Which is priceless IMHO. And if you ever plan to join, it's best and most enjoyable to go through it no knowing what is going to happen next. Like peaking at Christmas presents. the build up to the surprise is almost as fun as the surprise itself.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
What about the masonic links of Roberto Calvi who was found hanging under Black Friars bridge in London in 1982. From what I've heard that was a masonic murder.

Mob hit. Yes, it has something to do with the whole P2 affair, but P2 lost recognition as a regular lodge years before the banking scandals. Basically, the rest of the Masonic world saw that the mob had infiltrated a lodge and was using it for its own purposes and the real Masons cut off all contact with them.

reply to post by Mintwithahole.

Propaganda Due (P2) was a clandestine Lodge, not a regular Lodge, and therefore not recognized as a true Masonic Lodge (like that of co-ed Lodges). Nothing they did would be considered Masonic.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
Or is it that they can't confirm that the secrets posted are the ones they have learnt in their meetings?

This is exactly right. Even if you approached me face to face with me knowing that you were not a Mason, and asked me if 'X' was the Password of Master Mason (and it was), I would not confirm this for you. That is the extent of my oath. Not to reveal the secrets of the degrees.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Freemasons have no choice. They've always been on a campaign to win the sympathy of the "common man." Now that there's undeniable opposition against Freemasonry, they've had to hand-feed enough bits and pieces to placate those who are negatively affected by Freemasonry.

In the first few degrees of the Scottish Rite, they chop off the heads of the men who killed Hiram Abiff. One of them was beheaded before even being given a fair trial. Not exactly course material for "good men," "community leaders" or Christians.

Originally posted by KSigMason

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
They don't vow to protect other Masons, they only vow to protect Freemasonry itself. They are only to obligated to protect another Mason when doing so would not endanger his own life, and "within the length of his cable-tow."

That comment seems like a contradiction.

I beg to differ.

reply to post by KSigMason


Kids pressure their parents all the time. Parents are more likely to succumb to a kid's demands in an environment like the fair, for the same reason why they buy Harry Potter, Bratz and the Twilight movie.

Please tell me, what is this "community" to which you refer? Is it like the Black community, or the LGBT community?

What would count as "doing something for the community?" According to you, intruding on an investigation or a possible law enforcement procedure seems like a way to "do something for the community." If you really wanted to help the community, then you would get rid of perverts and do something about the food supply, instead of institutionalizing kids in Masonic living spaces.

Yes they are. Do a scientific sample of 100 parents about why they support the Masons, and I guarantee that they will report about some kind of appeal to personal greed, or parrot some emotional fluff that they got out of a PR campaign.

reply to post by network dude


All you've given is yet more emotional appeals. You ain't flying under the radar this time, buddy.

Lies of omission hardly count as "error." I like how your friend cut out the word "African" when you wrote the word "dissent," and then tried to spin the discussion towards my dislike of dissenting opinions. Not exactly being 100% upfront.

I've raised points that yet remain unchallenged, which convinces me that I'm right at least part of the time.

It's a good chance that you're just jealous because my judgement is better than yours is.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Mintwithahole.

 

I'm not familiar with it, but probably just rumors, or a personal vendetta. A true Masonic murder would be carried out according to our Obligation, and it would be fairly obvious, at least to Mason's!

There was a murder/suicide in California this year that was heart-wrenching. He killed his whole family and then himself, and then he put our universal call for help in his suicide not! If only he had done that before he killed his whole family!

Edit to add: Hanging would not be related to any of our Obligations.

King Solomon ordered two of the ruffians to be stripped naked, hung by the neck and then have their torsos cut open vertically where they were exposed to the hot sun and venomous flies and insects.

reply to post by network dude


I'm sure you'd also be surprised that you could have bulging biceps and rock-hard abs for only 3 easy payments of $39.95

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by KSigMason

 

Kids pressure their parents all the time.

I can hear the pressure now. "Mommy, mommy! I want to be fingerprinted and photographed and have a DNA swab taken! Oh sure! In Crazy Town, that happens all the time!

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Please tell me, what is this "community" to which you refer? Is it like the Black community, or the LGBT community?

That would be The Community©, that vast collection of people that walk past you and who have lives of their own and interactions with each other. That big thing. You know? Other people? Society at large? Is that a clear enough picture for you?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
What would count as "doing something for the community?" According to you, intruding on an investigation or a possible law enforcement procedure seems like a way to "do something for the community."

Intruding? Interesting spin you have on it. How exactly can it be intruding on a "possible law enforcement procedure" when nobody can know which MasoniChIP kit will ever be needed? Are you psychic? Is this like the notion of "pre-crime' from "Minority Report"? Can you foresee crime before it occurs?

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
If you really wanted to help the community, then you would get rid of perverts and do something about the food supply, instead of institutionalizing kids in Masonic living spaces.

Uh huh!

That was just such a pathetically lame attempt at a jab. Truly!

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yes they are. Do a scientific sample of 100 parents about why they support the Masons, and I guarantee that they will report about some kind of appeal to personal greed, or parrot some emotional fluff that they got out of a PR campaign.

I have a better idea. You do it! You're the one with the magnificently large chip on his shoulder about Masonry. You think so little of others, YOU gather proof of your position. You seem to think that others who don't share your view are simpletons; I think you might be disappointed to find out who the real simpleton is.

reply to post by JoshNorton


The Grand Orient of Italy kicked out Licio Gelli only after a newspaper had published an expose on Italian Freemasonry. They listed among its members powerful politicians, businessmen and Catholic clergy. Someone also discovered a plot to re-write the Italian constitution. Gelli was used as a cash-cow and then as a scapegoat for the rest of the Freemasons to save their own behinds.

There was a P2 lodge in Argentina as well.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
reply to post by KSigMason

 

Kids pressure their parents all the time.

I can hear the pressure now. "Mommy, mommy! I want to be fingerprinted and photographed and have a DNA swab taken! Oh sure! In Crazy Town, that happens all the time!

So you're admitting that kids don't even want to undergo it, so why are they joining the line?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Please tell me, what is this "community" to which you refer? Is it like the Black community, or the LGBT community?

That would be The Community©, that vast collection of people that walk past you and who have lives of their own and interactions with each other. That big thing. You know? Other people? Society at large? Is that a clear enough picture for you?

Where are the boundaries of this "community" ?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
What would count as "doing something for the community?" According to you, intruding on an investigation or a possible law enforcement procedure seems like a way to "do something for the community."

Intruding? Interesting spin you have on it. How exactly can it be intruding on a "possible law enforcement procedure" when nobody can know which MasoniChIP kit will ever be needed? Are you psychic? Is this like the notion of "pre-crime' from "Minority Report"? Can you foresee crime before it occurs?

Maybe you're implanting a subliminal message that the kid should expect to be abducted?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
If you really wanted to help the community, then you would get rid of perverts and do something about the food supply, instead of institutionalizing kids in Masonic living spaces.

Uh huh!

That was just such a pathetically lame attempt at a jab. Truly!

What are the Freemason charities doing about pedophiles?

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Yes they are. Do a scientific sample of 100 parents about why they support the Masons, and I guarantee that they will report about some kind of appeal to personal greed, or parrot some emotional fluff that they got out of a PR campaign.

I have a better idea. You do it! You're the one with the magnificently large chip on his shoulder about Masonry. You think so little of others, YOU gather proof of your position. You seem to think that others who don't share your view are simpletons; I think you might be disappointed to find out who the real simpleton is.

Clearly, the one with a chip on his shoulder is you.