The unborn undying mind of the Buddha

Originally posted by Geladinhu

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
Yeah, the argument that everything is an illusion, is one that reality wins hands down every time.

But I don't think that's what the ancients were saying. They were saying that separation and duality is an illusion and that all form is transitory, so they weren't saying that it wasn't real, only that it's more like flowing water..

I guess you are right.
Some ancient concepts are hard to understand in modern times because the concepts, as part of everything, are like you said: flowing water, ever-changing.

I think this gets confused in Western circles a lot because of translation issues. It is not that reality is an illusion, it is that our perception of reality is an illusion. As human beings, we inherently assign meaning to things that they don't, inherently, have. So I see a table, and I call it a table, and you agree with me that it is a table. But here's the thing: it's NOT a table at all, it's just a collection of matter. That that set of matter is a table is the illusion, not that that table doesn't exist.

reply to post by WhiteWash

I understand, and I guess all I was trying to say is one cannot TRY to live in the moment, to "reach" Zen. That it doesn't really work that way I don't think. There is only the moment, and we are in it already, and every effort, whether for a certain type of thought, way or being, or no thought or non being, or practice, or any sort of ah discipline, all of that leads directly away from it.

Of course all descriptions fail, and even any pointer which points risks pointing away from it by trying to point TO it.

It's a very strange and almost absurdly simple paradox, but there can be no effort to "be here now" from somewhere else - even the practice of mindfulness as generative of it, is in a way a striving for.

I "tried" to offer a pointer, to offer this other perspective which I've been "grokking" from my recent studies on it, for what it's worth..?

post by OmegaPoint


[edit on 14-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by MConnalley

Interesting, that you were thinking from the perspective of the ocean wave analogy as well.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Originally posted by InthekNOwla
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

Beautifully put. This is the fundamental dilemma of the Human Condition. People are possessed by their minds and imprisoned in their personalities. It's the EGO. We have to go beyond mind since the mind is only an accumulation of experiences and knowledge. The true SELF lies beyond. Its is the stillness/nothingness in the background. Human kind is lost in thought. i.e.. "The Matrix". Lol. Funny but true.

I have never heard of the matrix being described as our thought but its a brilliant way of putting it. I sit and think the matrix is all sorts of things...beings in a high tech lab controlling us or maybe aliens planting chips into us when really its SO simple your right. The matrix is our MINDS and our THOUGHTS. Break free from the mind break free from the "matrix".

And of course the mere fact I was sitting thinking about what the matrix was meant I was not in my now!!! Instead I should just let this thought pass by and accept it, observe it, it doesnt matter what the matrix is if I totally accept the moment.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Mr Green]

In true Zen fashion, I refuse to organize my post!

"Before enlightenment chop wood carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood carry water."

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
To have it would be to have everlasting peace and life and utter contentment and complete freedom, to be one's completely natural self, authentic, and without care or concern, although not lacking in compassion.

You'll never have this, and striving for this state is a waste of time.

At the same time, in that beautifully silly Buddhist way, you are in this state all the time, you just don't notice. I hate to bring up the whole clouds and sky metaphor, but I think it's pretty apt, actually. Even on days when you can't see the sky, it's there.

The question then becomes, of course, how do you control the weather?!?

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I am struggling with the same philosophical life debacle. I understand many concepts of Buddhist, Hindu, And Taoist teachings as I have read many books. I also do understand that knowing the path and walking the path are different, and I confess, while I know the path in a limited way, I have not as yet taken enough steps to consider myself as one who walks it. Many hard lessons of life, loss, suffering, and love have I been through to arrive at my present state of understanding.

My wisdom to you is to consider this buddhist proverb: “Before enlightenment; chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood, carry water.”

reply to post by suomichris


This post embodies my post in a beautiful way. I wish I would have read it before i posted mine. Good job

reply to post by WhiteWash


Beautiful. The trick to life is to die before you die. We all have to disentangle our sense of self from the content of our minds. We have to kill the false self. It is said in A Course in Miracles " There are 2 voices in the head. One God created, the other you created. One can be called the Holy Spirit or your conscience, the other the ego. God cannot tell you his truth until you stop telling him yours. " Time is the only thing that veils God from our sight, we must burn it up with fire." Time IS thought. The past and the future only ever exists in our minds. The present moment is all there is. When the future comes it will be NOW. When the past was here is was NOW. The fire that we must use to burn time is the flame of our consciousness.

A Flower For You.

Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by InthekNOwla
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

Beautifully put. This is the fundamental dilemma of the Human Condition. People are possessed by their minds and imprisoned in their personalities. It's the EGO. We have to go beyond mind since the mind is only an accumulation of experiences and knowledge. The true SELF lies beyond. Its is the stillness/nothingness in the background. Human kind is lost in thought. i.e.. "The Matrix". Lol. Funny but true.

I have never heard of the matrix being described as our thought but its a brilliant way of putting it. I sit and think the matrix is all sorts of things...beings in a high tech lab controlling us or maybe aliens planting chips into us when really its SO simple your right. The matrix is our MINDS and our THOUGHTS.

Break free from the mind break free from the "matrix".

And of course the mere fact I was sitting thinking about what the matrix was meant I was not in my now!!! Instead I should just let this thought pass by and accept it, observe it, it doesnt matter what the matrix is if I totally accept the moment.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Mr Green]

Actually, I don't think this quite right. Mind isn't the problem. Mind is all that there is (although everything else exists, too). The Matrix is more the unwilled grasping of the mind toward thoughts.

Originally posted by suomichris

Originally posted by Mr Green

Originally posted by InthekNOwla
reply to post by Silenceisall

 

Beautifully put. This is the fundamental dilemma of the Human Condition. People are possessed by their minds and imprisoned in their personalities. It's the EGO. We have to go beyond mind since the mind is only an accumulation of experiences and knowledge. The true SELF lies beyond. Its is the stillness/nothingness in the background. Human kind is lost in thought. i.e.. "The Matrix". Lol. Funny but true.

I have never heard of the matrix being described as our thought but its a brilliant way of putting it. I sit and think the matrix is all sorts of things...beings in a high tech lab controlling us or maybe aliens planting chips into us when really its SO simple your right. The matrix is our MINDS and our THOUGHTS.

Break free from the mind break free from the "matrix".

And of course the mere fact I was sitting thinking about what the matrix was meant I was not in my now!!! Instead I should just let this thought pass by and accept it, observe it, it doesnt matter what the matrix is if I totally accept the moment.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Mr Green]

Actually, I don't think this quite right. Mind isn't the problem. Mind is all that there is (although everything else exists, too). The Matrix is more the unwilled grasping of the mind toward thoughts.

This is confusing.
Isn't it easier if we separate the "thing that thinks" from the "thing that produces the thing that thinks"?
The thing that thinks would be the mind.
And the thing that produces the thing that thinks is consciousness.
Mind is a part of consciousness and consciousness is all there is.

How does that sounds for you?

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I understand, and I guess all I was trying to say is one cannot TRY to live in the moment, to "reach" Zen. That it doesn't really work that way I don't think. There is only the moment, ...

Exactly! You cannot try to live in the moment, because you have no choice: you are already in the moment, and there is nothing else. People who "live in the past" don't live in the past: they simply ignore the present moment (in which they actually live) in favor of a mind which clings obsessively to thoughts of moments past.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by suomichris]

reply to post by suomichris

And it is utterly futile for the mind to think that the mind can grasp itself or even observe itself observing itself ad infinitim, for in that state, never a decision could be made, we would have to wait and wait and wait, and then decide to decide to decide. Natural mind, a mind you can trust will produce the right kind of spontaneity, and authenticity.

post by OmegaPoint

reply to post by Geladinhu


You are one last distinction away, from no distinction at all, from "natural mind".

That one is handy to get you there, but then it too must go. At least that's what I've heard..

Originally posted by Geladinhu
This is confusing.

Welcome to Buddhism!

Isn't it easier if we separate the "thing that thinks" from the "thing that produces the thing that thinks"?
The thing that thinks would be the mind.
And the thing that produces the thing that thinks is consciousness.
Mind is a part of consciousness and consciousness is all there is.

How does that sounds for you?

Well, in Buddhism, we generally think of these things as being separate (even though they actually aren't! Get it??). The mind is your perceptual capacity, essentially, but especially that perceptual capacity as it perceives your internal world of thoughts. This is, I think, basically the same thing as "consciousness" as you are using it. Mind is consciousness.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are things which arise, unbidden, into the perceptual space of the mind. (cuts out long, silly analogy)

Does that make sense?

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I was just thinking can my hand hold itself? No, it cannot I say. Then I think, but it is holding itself, so perfectly now. It is itself.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by Geladinhu

 

You are one last distinction away, from no distinction at all, from "natural mind".

That one is handy to get you there, but then it too must go. At least that's what I've heard..

I come and go into distinction and non-distinction. Whenever I talk the distinction comes up. It is inevitable since concepts deal with definitions and definitions are setting boundaries between things.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
And it is utterly futile for the mind to think that the mind can grasp itself or even observe itself observing itself ad infinitim, for in that state, never a decision could be made, we would have to wait and wait and wait, and then decide to decide to decide. Natural mind, a mind you can trust will produce the right kind of spontaneity, and authenticity.

Well, yes, but the mind that you trust is a mind that doesn't grasp, period, whether it be itself or thoughts or anything. Another quote comes to mind, which I can't remember the exact wording, but it is something like, "The Buddhist path is simple, just do this: avoid picking or choosing."

Originally posted by InthekNOwla
reply to post by WhiteWash

 

Beautiful. The trick to life is to die before you die.

This was one of the main messages I took from reading The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. I would recommend this book to those who want a modern easy to follow guide on spirituality. He teaches that when we access our Now problems do not exist and that in the Now we are already perfect and complete.

Originally posted by suomichris

Originally posted by Geladinhu
This is confusing.

Welcome to Buddhism!

Isn't it easier if we separate the "thing that thinks" from the "thing that produces the thing that thinks"?
The thing that thinks would be the mind.
And the thing that produces the thing that thinks is consciousness.
Mind is a part of consciousness and consciousness is all there is.

How does that sounds for you?

Well, in Buddhism, we generally think of these things as being separate (even though they actually aren't! Get it??). The mind is your perceptual capacity, essentially, but especially that perceptual capacity as it perceives your internal world of thoughts. This is, I think, basically the same thing as "consciousness" as you are using it. Mind is consciousness.

Thoughts, on the other hand, are things which arise, unbidden, into the perceptual space of the mind. (cuts out long, silly analogy)

Does that make sense?

I get it and it does makes sense.
Thanks for clearing it up.

reply to post by Geladinhu


I wish someone would take the time to read this, and comment on it

post by OmegaPoint


What I meant to communicate is that the final distinction of consciousness to mind, unless helpful to "contain" mind and keep it under observation until it's been "tamed" is also encouraged to vanish in the final analysis, and that it's the last one, and the only really helpful distinction imo.