The unborn undying mind of the Buddha

I do hope someone will take the time to comb this piece of writing, surely there are some reading this who are like - what the heck IS this they're going on about..

post by OmegaPoint

reply to post by suomichris


Understood. Its is not the form that the message takes or the messenger that's important but the message!

A Flower For You.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by suomichris

 

We're calling the whole mind the thoughts and the voice and are identifying the observer with consciousness and consciousness with the Tao, which is the universal consciousness giving rise to all form.

The most fundamental "I am" of being, but not the one who thinks, the one who HAS thoughts.

This just feels better and easier for me, and hey, whatever works, since this aint about rules or trivialities. Whatever works and that works for me, I can feel it just typing this now.

Ya, sure, however we call it is fine. I'm just more familiar with the traditional terms in Buddhist philosophy, and have trying to use them here and then explain myself.

As to the "I am," I don't think it's right to say that the mind "has" thoughts, but rather that the mind observes thoughts. The thoughts are like tables and cats: you don't really "have" them, they just enter into your perceptual space.

haha I must be getting tired.

I think...before ...I am.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I do hope someone will take the time to comb this piece of writing, surely there are some reading this who are like - what the heck IS this they're going on about..

post by OmegaPoint

 

Okay, okay, I'll look at it again and make comments!

reply to post by The Utopian Penguin


lol.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Im sure that they will. They very fact that were having this conversation is proof that we were meant to do so. We all have contributed to the awakening of the collective here tonight. This is a beautiful thing as even the smallest signs of progress is progress none the least.

A Flower For You.

oh crap ...I lost my now... Now... I have to wait for everyone to catch up ....

~decides to go totally random for a millisecond ~

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
The ego is inherently inauthentic, and there's nothing and no way for it to become authentic within the present moment, since it's a record of the past, and a projection EXCEPT to own up to it's own absolute inauthenticity.....

The ego is inherently inauthentic, and cannot come authentic, because it isn't actually a real thing. Trans-dimensional hyperspace slugs can't become cats because they aren't real.

In other words by being wholly authentic about the inescapable inauthenticity within which the self is emersed, and letting it run to the end of its program, it suddenly becomes available as an integral part of what is entirely authentic and natural for us within the continuing present moment!

This isn't totally clear to me, but the program of thoughts doesn't ever end. It's more a matter of how the mind responds to this train of thoughts (by not grasping) that begins to reveal "the sky," as it were.

This is Buddhism, that twinkling and sudden flash of penetrating insight, which makes you laugh out loud, at the utter absurdity of your own self as having any concrete reality or distinction in its own right let along a truly authentic character which is really you - unless and until, that is, you come to realize that there IS NO YOU, except that which you CHOOSE, at any given moment, to be, thus leaving the opportunity to be NOTHING SPECIAL AT ALL, available.

Again, not totally clear to me what you mean here, but I don't think the realization that you are not you leads to you be able to be whatever you choose... If you choose something new, you're choosing again, and then grasping, and that grasping is inherently from ego/self.

In short, to chose to be nothing as the identificaation of ego self, both nothing and an intrinsic part of the ever spontaneous Tao which gives rise to everything. Why be inauthentically some ONE that you can never possibly be authentically, when you can be entirely authentically no one in particular, or any given person or way of being at any given time. The ego also will chose life in the final analysis, and come at last to see the true deception, by seeing in it's full manifestaiton, the faulty program it's been running all along, fom the delusion of the dual mind of judgement and distinction making perpetuation.

Again, not clear, mostly because, as I said, I'm not horribly familiar with Taoism. But, also again, I don't think you choose to be nothing. You ARE nothing, you just haven't realized it yet...

And then, by really getting into the presence of the present as distinctionless, through mediation or whatever, upon us will come the realization, as mind meets consciousness, both in annihilation and continuation.

Being in the present moment is a tool, though, I think to coming to understand non-duality.... Or something.

So there's just got to be an absolutely hilarious joke in here somewhere, please help me find it!

A bum walks up to a Buddhism monk and says, "Hey, can you spare a dime?" Buddhist monk smiles and says, "Sure, I own EVERYTHING, you know!" Bum says, "Really?" Monk smiles and walks away...

Well, that was a crap joke. Too late for humor....

"hey who let my ego in here"
He never lets me buy a round"

Originally posted by suomichris
Trans-dimensional hyperspace slugs can't become cats

Thank GOD!

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

Originally posted by suomichris
Trans-dimensional hyperspace slugs can't become cats

Thank GOD!

Heheh, well, I was going to say "aliens" or "ghosts," but given what forum I'm on, I thought I should go just a LITTLE farther out there....

Originally posted by OmegaPoint

Originally posted by suomichris
Trans-dimensional hyperspace slugs can't become cats

Thank GOD!

LOL which one ?

ah seek and you shall bind.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by EnlightenUp

 

What was that supposed to mean? It was intended to be helpful to people, and it offered a different perspective than that which people normally have in relation to this topic, but it would need to be actually read and considered carefully.

If you mean the other thread (the I AM vs. ME dichotomy) then yeah, I went and dropped my load over there (LOL) attempting to convey more about what I meant.

reply to post by suomichris


I'm trying to help myself and others by starting out with the premise that the thinking mind, and the thoughts, are not the true "I am" of being.

Most people think that the thinker, and the thinkers thoughts ARE their actual self, and right there, by failing to make the distinction that there is also one who can observe or be aware of the thoughts and the thinking mind, they are hijacked by the ego-self who takes over, when all the way it's just a program based on nothing but past memories, which are themselves filtered according to a whole host of distinctions we call beliefs and values. The ego is very complex, and multi-faceted, so it's best to distinguish the whole thing as "the thinker" apart from the observing consciousness. Then, the thinker can be trapped, both within the domain of consciousness, as well as the present moment, and brought to presence of it's own inauthenticity, since it amounts to a projection of past, into the future, bypassing the eternally present moment out of which the future arises as a realm of possibility, from the present.

It's not entirely Buddhist, but a helpful frame of reference imo, to wrap the false self up into one observable package, which is entirely past based and past and future focused, never present to the present, with any degree of authentic spontaneity. So first we choose who and what to be, having cleared the slate, and then we start getting spontaneous and authentic by realizing that first, it's our own creation, and second, that we don't need to be operating from pre-programmed responses, but are something greater than the program we've been running.

It's all so that something novel can be born out of the present, and from a continual process of death and resurrection.

reply to post by suomichris


Well put sir. :-)

A Flower For You.

The further the discussion proceeds towards a concession of agreement or understanding, the deeper into confusion the answers sink, to label something that for thousands of years has evaded all labels is a lesson of diligence in futility.

The question arises first and foremost because of language and culture. What the English Language and culture defines as "dying" and "born" is not the same as the Eastern perceptions. There are similar only in the general sense. This is further muddled by the term "undying" and "unborn" , both concepts quite far from common sense of Western ideas.

Thus terms such as "illusion" and "reality" , both definitions heavily based on the precepts of "awakening" and/or "enlightenment" is also polluted by the heavily biased definitions of the definition of "life" , "alive" , "dying" and "born"

"The journey is the destination."

That is the first step ....... there is no well trodden path or map, even those who have been there can only describe the way in words that lead nowhere, for it is not a place that you can reach by way of walking in the foot steps of others.

"If you see the Buddha on the road ; kill him ! "

The Buddha can only be within you ....... and NO .... the Buddha is not a person, God or Deity ....... or a statue that you ask blessings from.

The state of enlightened mind is an awakened mind ... not necessarily the SAME as the undying or unborn mind though it is well within the reach of the Enlightened / Awakened mind.

Take time to experience the story of the traveling monk :

On a long journey ... the monk was taken by the view of the beautiful mountains ahead of him. Anticipating the beauty of the place he waited eagerly and impatiently. He was well disappointed when after days pass by and he did not see what he expected to see, till days later he was broken hearted to turn back and saw that he has passed the mountains and not realised it.

While in the mountains you never see the mountain .... you only see it before you reach it ....... or after you pass it.

It is the same with the experience of the mind towards enlightenment.

reply to post by third_eye


Well Put.

A Flower For You.

Originally posted by third_eye
Take time to experience the story of the traveling monk :

On a long journey ... the monk was taken by the view of the beautiful mountains ahead of him. Anticipating the beauty of the place he waited eagerly and impatiently. He was well disappointed when after days pass by and he did not see what he expected to see, till days later he was broken hearted to turn back and saw that he has passed the mountains and not realised it.

A Buddhist monk, who didn't understand the first thing about Buddhism. How ironic!

Here's another one:

Two Buddhist monks were walking along a path. They came to a small stream and encountered a young woman dressed in beautiful silks. One of the monks offered to carry the young woman across the stream which he did. They parted ways. Some time passed and the other monk turned to the other and asked "why did you carry that woman, We are monks, were not supposed to do such things." They other monk looked at him and replied "Brother, I put her down hours ago. Are you still carrying her?"

The Monk had been lost in thought the whole time retelling himself over and over how the other violated tradition so metaphorically he WAS still carrying her.

A Flower For You

[edit on 14-7-2009 by InthekNOwla]

[edit on 14-7-2009 by InthekNOwla]