The unborn undying mind of the Buddha

reply to post by bsbray11


Or you can consider yourself at the transcend apex of both, as an integrated phenomenon able to accept and contain both, at the same time, or to simply choose to BE a fully integrated free-fiunctioning human being.

It's the dual mind which tricks us into thinking it's either/or and that we are locked into a never ending swing from one extreme to the other, without a balance between the two..

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Right, but it really does take both sides, or all sides. All the warmth and joy is fine but it makes me want to kill something honestly. Figure of speech.

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
I think that you are right, except for the goal part, there is no goal, just being.

I think the best way to think about this notion of an unborn undying mind, is to consider that everything comes and goes, not only the content of our mind, and our experiences, our good times, struggles, sufferings and joys, but also the physical manifestations of form, which arise spontaneously from nothing, return to it, and then arise again, and that this is, all of it, happening against a timeless, and changless background, and so why must we identify our "self" with the content or experience of the mind, or for that matter, with the ever changing "world" around us? It all falls apart, including our own body, and our ability to surf, or enjoy sitting under the willow and eating a willow seed. It all comes and goes, but there is something in the midst of it all, which remains and is eternal. That is the unborn undying mind, being one with that.

Now just to BE one with it, and to accept it as it is and is not, a flow, timeless, spaceless, infinite.

Indeed there is no goal.
It was just a manner of speaking.
The "way" and the "goal" are the same.
They are ever-present.

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by OmegaPoint

 

Right, but it really does take both sides, or all sides. All the warmth and joy is fine but it makes me want to kill something honestly. Figure of speech.

When you reach the Mind you are all alluding to though, the "One Taste", there is nothing to Hit or kill, as there is no "I" to hit anything, or no "anger" that arises to do it, and even if it did as happens in very small waves before the Total buddha Mind is unveiled, one the path, the sea or lake becomes totally calm... before you become the One Mind... you would only be Killing yourself anyway. You are all, and all are you, so the many are more important or the "other" is as important as "you" the definitions go away from experience.

The "Love" ones ego has for "I", which makes us want to be right, happy, rich, liked, that feels good when we get revenge etc... is lost as that "Self Love" the becomes Omnipresent and extends to everything, as there is the experience of not "me" or "I" but oneness with all.

Awareness settles into the clear lake which includes all the droplets of water as one, there is nothing else "Out there" to get angry at. No afflictive emotions to become a wave... no dirt in the water, it is clear and one.

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 13-7-2009 by MischeviousElf]

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by OmegaPoint

 

Right, but it really does take both sides, or all sides. All the warmth and joy is fine but it makes me want to kill something honestly. Figure of speech.

Precisely, and that's the problem with duality, and a disowned voice, and it's the problem with the concept of nirvana as a blissful state of being, forever, I mean like that's the kind of thing that can produce another Hitler! Think triangle, with two polar oppposites rising, from the most immature state, to the most mature, where they intermingle and serve one another and the master at the apex, and there it is, and you can then delve down into them, either one or both, as much as neccessary. We so often become our opposite, and an aspect of the thing we most hate. And this is why I like to think of Buddha and Christ as two aspects of one human being, the first who escapes all suffering for his own and everyone's sake and the second who embraces it completely and takes is all on for the sake of others. One must be both of these beings, integrated.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


But one WILL become two, and the two, one. This is the impulse, and why we're here as individual beings in a universe of utterly immense variety.

And that's why I think that the triangle is better than the circle. Eventually you might just want to bust out of the oneness circle of pure love, and wreck some serious havok, just to experience something novel..

reply to post by MischeviousElf


You're right there is no difference, but that doesn't mean I can't still hit or kill something. I may just be killing myself, but what is even wrong with that? I don't even have to be angry, though I might be, if I feel like it.

I don't seek revenge, I just seek violence for violence's sake.

It's just like seeking love for love's sake. And I do that too.

I also like being an antagonist, playing the Devil's advocate, or even the Devil Himself. Did you know there are warrants out for my arrest right now? Don't worry though, it's not for harming anyone else, hahaha.

None of you can tell me there is no place for violence, because violence is beautiful, and complete and utter destruction is beautiful. Silence and death and empty shapes and forms make things around and inside them. There are warrants out for my arrest because I am reshaping society and the system that is in place right now is allergic to it, but I am allergic to them as well, so it's a stand-off, and I am not backing down. I am already backed down actually, it's just their turn for a change, and I have all the time in the world.

Now don't get me wrong, if you met me in person, you would see I am a very passive and gentle person. I will punch my friends sometimes but they punch back, it's a different story. I weigh so little, no one ever perceives me as a threat to them anyway. I don't even kill the ticks that try to crawl up me when I am meditating, though I will flick them away, which is precisely my expression of VIOLENCE.

Everything tied together in a circle, you're right. You have no complaints from me, except that the dirty side of things is being down-played just a little bit. I have gears that turn to balance things in my head, I already said I LIKE being the antagonist. I like getting especially dirty right before I take a shower; it makes the shower more useful and meaningful, and I can feel a bigger difference when I step out.

I guess my point is that I put different emphasis on "everything" when I go after trying to experience it.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by bsbray11]

Instead, if we think of a triangle, at the apex of which is a gate, through which we can freely come and go, now that's Liberation!

Nirvana or not nirvana, love or hate, suffering or joy - when we fully realize that all is open, and that no part of us need be disowned, then we are free, and the disowned parts, they can then come out into the light of awareness and mature, intermingle, dissolve, re-differentiate and re-integrate, with nothing left out, at last whole and complete.

The very end, of should and shouldn't, to what is and what inspires, naturally, which is love of course, only authentic love..

So even all this meditation and practice and learning and trying to be one with everything, at some level it's all bull#, because it's a trying, or a "right way" of being, which in it's own way imposes another duality and more inauthenticity and non-spontaneity or a constriction, a blockage against Liberation.

Speaking of the quantum holographic universe I was surprised to see the image of Buddha clearly from a satellite photograph on the planet Venus. Yes I believe humanoid life is in abundance on Venus and this opens up the discussion did Buddha transcend from Earth to Venus or Venus to Earth?

Sure we humans on Earth can say Buddha is everywhere in this Universe but when I see a visual representation like the one you will see in this photo from Earth that is very similar to the Buddha on Venus it makes me think the humanoids on Venus are practicing some form of Buddhism.

Here is the closest representation of the statue of Buddha from Earth as I saw it from a satellite photo on Venus minus the background. ^Y^

www.bighappybuddha.com...


[edit on 13-7-2009 by amari]

reply to post by bsbray11


And the reason you feel the need to embrace VIOLENCE (with a shout) is because it's a "should not" and something you're not supposed to express, but if you could get present to that part of yourself, and let that voice be heard, let it out of the basement and ask it want it really wants and needs, and how it would serve the self as it matures to it's fully expression, then it transforms into something else, maybe a powerful force of creativity and transformation, both for yourself and others.

There is no denying it, and I'm glad you expressed it.

Let it speak - what does it really want?

reply to post by OmegaPoint


I don't have it at the moment but when I am pressed in the right way it will manifest so that I can take care of business.

The only precaution that needs to be taken is to remember to have a clear mind and not become stained by passions. I make sure I am paying attention to who is driving who.



Having said that, there are still unnumbered subconscious forces controlling me that I can't even comprehend, and have trouble imagining, that I have yet to throw conscious reigns over. Even if you conquer your passions, why can't you grow a third arm out of your back spontaneously, for example? You can do it in a dream but not here. Why? All sorts of things put invisible restraints on, most of which I have no clue about, and it's still a mystery to me. What is preventing me from raising more energy? Etc. It's a constant battle with SOMETHING, always a form of darkness.

[edit on 13-7-2009 by bsbray11]

You don't need to justify it - what I hear it saying is that it's the part of your that help you take care of business, and it sounds like you're already in touch with it. Good stuff! Anger is very much needed, helps get things done which need to be done. Harnessed in the right way, it's power, and energy, as is sexual lust. Enough pussy footing around I say, we're human being for God's sake and we all have all this stuff in us, every part of which can serve.

OmegaPoint:
I "get" that there is nothing to get

there is nothing that needs to be achieved

Ok.

I am still having some difficulty arriving at the conception or the realization, that I am not bound within the confines of a single life

Perhaps you are having difficulty because you perceive it as an issue to be struggled with? If, as you've just stated above, there is nothing to get, and nothing to be acheived...why are you struggling to attain a realization that you don't have?

but there's the rub, that it cannot be grasped at or
"achieved" just realized instantaneously.

It cannot be "achieved" because the understanding already is. Time is an illusion, and the wave at the point it meets the shore already "is." So long as you are exclusively the wave in the ocean you are not the wave that has met the shore.

You are a point along a wave in the middle of the ocean yearning to be the point of the wave at the shore. Don't be the wave in the ocean. Don't be the wave at the shore.

Be the wave.

It is in both places.

I like what MischeviousElf has to share.

But as a rebel I have to step forward about some points.
Elf treats formal meditation as necessary.
I AM AGAINST THAT. NOTHING IS NECESSARY.
I lost months of practice because I thought formal meditation was necessary but I simply couldn't put myself to sit down quietly for 15 minutes, so for a while I "gave up". If I had realized that it wasn't really necessary to sit down and formally meditate I could have continued to meditate informally at all times without guilt or worry.

Now a more delicate point.
I rather say that everything is real then say that nothing is real.
The feeling I get when treating everything as illusion is separation.
The feeling I get when treating everything as real is awe.

This is idea that everything is real came after I integrated the idea that nothing was real. So maybe the former is a step to the latter. But why not jump steps? The only con about jumping steps is that it will be more "intense and dangerous".

Maybe this will help if someone decides to jump steps:
Although everything is real it is hard to say what it really is, so we must observe carefully without taking conclusions.

Thanks LB. Very helpful. Yes, time is an illusion, from the perspective of the present moment, which is all there is, all there was, and all there ever will be, and from it, there is no escape, or any need to escape, and I've decided to trap my mind in it, like chinese handcuffs, until it surrenders, and at that moment, at some now point, it will come to me the full awakening.

And I think the other idea I was wanting to convey, is that in the same way that there is nothing to get, achieve or acquire - there is also nothing to be eliminated or gotten rid of, nor can anything be gotten rid of, it's all part of me and everyone, and it's best not to disown any of it.

I'm going to have to change my signature I think..

reply to post by Geladinhu

Excellent post! Starred! You like really REALLY get it, and would put many Buddhist Roshis to shame with that statement! Bravo!

Yeah, the argument against reality as being real and that everything is an illusion, is one that reality wins hands down every time.

But I don't think that's what the ancients were saying. They were saying that separation and duality is an illusion and that all form is transitory, so they weren't saying that it wasn't real, only that it's more like flowing water..

[edit on 13-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by Geladinhu

 

Yeah, the argument that everything is an illusion, is one that reality wins hands down every time.

But I don't think that's what the ancients were saying. They were saying that separation and duality is an illusion and that all form is transitory, so they weren't saying that it wasn't real, only that it's more like flowing water..

I guess you are right.
Some ancient concepts are hard to understand in modern times because the concepts, as part of everything, are like you said: flowing water, ever-changing.

Originally posted by bsbray11
How often do you guys like feeling depressed?

You all make this sound too easy. Here I am preparing to subject myself to greater and greater hardship.

Maybe the hardship you speak of isn't of the same caliber.

What happens when I leave happiness and joy, and take on suffering, this time trying not to wince and retreat again?

How is the choice to take on suffering equate to leaving happiness and joy ?
You speak of violence and how you like to precipitate it but you also speak of wincing and retreat. This confuses me.

Do you mean that when you precipitate it and prevail thats bring you satisfaction or do you mean when you are met with an over powering force that prevails you don't stay the course and take an overwhelming loss ?

From your perspective is it better to have a hollow victory or to lose a glorious battle?

Does that battle have to involve violence ?

I don't know if this will prove helpful to the discussion or not, but at some level I do think it's relevant, or at least some of the information contained this thread is anyway, so I figured I'd post a link to it just in case..

Distinguishing our Distinctions
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In it I make use of duality only to the degree of distinguishing the mind as a meaning making machine. In the end, that distinction needs to be let go of as well (every good idea contains imbedded within itself it's own contradiction), to finally free the "itself mind" to become "natural mind", where you simply allow the program to run on unimpeded, until perhaps, at last it simply runs to silence, particularly when the observing consciousness is able to communicate to it, that it is the source of all inauthenticity and complete lack of spontaneity - and you can't help it, even a complete lack of spontaneity and authenticity, is, in it's own way, spontaneously and authentically INauthentic and contrived, since we do that automatically for the most part, most of us, ALL THE TIME via our unending "stream of consciousness" run-on self talk and assessments, evaluations and distinctions.
The ego is inherently inauthentic, and there's nothing and no way for it to become authentic within the present moment, since it's a record of the past, and a projection EXCEPT to own up to it's own absolute inauthenticity.....

In other words by being wholly authentic about the inescapable inauthenticity within which the self is emersed, and letting it run to the end of its program, it suddenly becomes available as an integral part of what is entirely authentic and natural for us within the continuing present moment!

This is Buddhism, that twinkling and sudden flash of penetrating insight, which makes you laugh out loud, at the utter absurdity of your own self as having any concrete reality or distinction in its own right let along a truly authentic character which is really you - unless and until, that is, you come to realize that there IS NO YOU, except that which you CHOOSE, at any given moment, to be, thus leaving the opportunity to be NOTHING SPECIAL AT ALL, available. In short, to chose to be nothing as the identificaation of ego self, both nothing and an intrinsic part of the ever spontaneous Tao which gives rise to everything. Why be inauthentically some ONE that you can never possibly be authentically, when you can be entirely authentically no one in particular, or any given person or way of being at any given time. The ego also will chose life in the final analysis, and come at last to see the true deception, by seeing in it's full manifestaiton, the faulty program it's been running all along, fom the delusion of the dual mind of judgement and distinction making perpetuation.

And then, by really getting into the presence of the present as distinctionless, through mediation or whatever, upon us will come the realization, as mind meets consciousness, both in annihilation and continuation.

So there's just got to be an absolutely hilarious joke in here somewhere, please help me find it!


So this bum was walking down the streey one day... and stumbles headlong into _______

[edit on 13-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

The OP question was....

Undying mind is hard to grasp when one is only allowed one individual mind at a time? Thats sort of what I read from it....

I think that is answered when thinking the cliche "We are all one"...how can "WE" ever die? Only one of us at a time...a limb...or even less more, a single cell can die at a time but never the whole macrocosm...

the collective consciousness cannot die because if it did that means that no consciousness would ever had existed to die...since there is no time.