Denial Of The Holocaust

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Ludde

 

I have not turned anything into anything. I claim that there was systematic,planned extermination of Jews by Nazi Germany. And victors do wright history, there is however a certain limitation to what one could write.
Britain cannot remove Dresden bombing. USA cannot remove Hiroshima and Nagasaki,Soviet Union cannot remove Katyn. Nazi apologists, even if they would win, would not be able to write off their crimes.
You want independent info - well here is Polish census, by Poles, in their independent country with no Jews in charge in 1931. It states approximetly 3000000 Jews and approximetly 21 million Poles. There is Soviet census from 1926 that has 2.6 million Jews and 78 million Russians.
After WW2:
Polish census (2002 - there are earlier ones but you as not lazy can clearly do something positive and find the info): 38 million, 1500 Jews. Big drop , ah? All paid for German nationality in WW2? All went to Israel that had 700000 Jews in 1948?
Soviet census (1959) 3 million Jews and 99 millions Russians.

As for whining - prove me wrong. You are clearly trying to provocate me while providing no real info beside insults. So try to bring something positive, will you. Explain to lazy discredited whiner me why :
WW2 was tragedy for Polish people. And yet today there are more then before WW2. Not so to Polish Jews. So maybe you can provide an explanation?

Hi, but your information doesn't cut it. Could you please provide links to official statistics and the likes? Thank you, it would be very helpful to the Truth Movement.

reply to post by Ludde


My copy pasta proves that Jews could not buy German citizenship. Nor that they could change their fate by converting - since this was about blood as far as Nazi agenda went. So in my lazyness i tried to show it to diligent you. But since you provide nothing except attempts to get me down to your level of personal insults - there is no point in further discussion.
Edit.
Truth? movement? Like in newspeak? Good is bad, war is peace, truth is?
Hey - i thought that you are not lazy one, how come you do not look it up for yourself? Or looking for truth hurts truth movement? Wow - i just got down to your level. Congrats.
Ok - info from Polish source! Though i am sure that since you are after truth you will search it for Jewish authors - well there are almost no Jews in Poland. Wonder why?
Anyway, it is not for 1931 census since my Polish sucks. There are a lot of documents (from rozdz1 to rozdz?) -you are not lazy, check them out. But!
I found data for 1939. Even better, ha? I hope they got Polish speakers in truth movement, you wanted authenticity yourself.

się 22 140 tys. mieszkańców, w tym 10 568 tys. na terenach włączonych do Rzeszy (według języka ojczystego 9 221 tys. Polaków, 653 tys. Niemców i 582 tys. Żydów), 11 542 tys. na terenach utworzonego Generalnego Gubernatorstwa (9 863 tys. Polaków, 1 225 tys. Żydów, 357 tys

This is territories that went to Germany. Zydow - is Jews.
In 1946 there are:
20,5 mln Polaków i 2,3 mln Niemców
No Jews in numbers suitable to be noted. This is example of truth. And it does not need to move anywhere.
Source:
www.igipz.pan.pl...
For Soviet censuses you can search for yourself, i am sure there are Russian speakers in truth crowd.


[edit on 27-6-2009 by ZeroKnowledge]

Originally posted by neformore

The lack of histprical accuracy, and the ignorance on display in this thread is, frankly, almost as disgusting as the act of trying to deny a genocide. Almost.

So, Heres a history lesson

Heres some maths on the subject

And here is the reality of holocaust denial, in my opinion

The evidence is there. From survivor eye witness reports, through to the Nazi's own records. Holocaust denial relies on ignorance to feed itself.

Don't feed it.

I'm not a denier of this Holo or any of the many others...

However, when wrong information is put out there by people who are clearly not ignorant, entire arguments are called into question.

Isn't all this important enough to get the facts straight ? Of course people didn't just change their name and move to Boca Raton ! They were murdered, and- IN VAST NUMBERS !

But, nefermore- here is a MATH lesson for you :
Belzec,Sobibor and Treblinka were pure killing centres, " processing " 25000 people a day. Your words from the smarmy ' History Lesson ' link you provide.
That's 125,000/ wk if a 5 day week is the norm. If the whole system takes a 2 wk vacation... then 6,150,000 are killed yearly. Your ' history ' lesson would suggest some 16,912,500 were killed by this method alone. This doesn't take into consideration all of the shooting you refer to...
If these people in the ' pure killing centres ' weren't processed by death, then what ... ?

But, you correct yourself and later claim that ' only ' 8000/day ( which is up from the inneficient level of 1200/day is the actual number.
Is sixteen million just too dang unbelievable ?

And also a more trivial question. " By '41... ( the euthanization program-my edit ) had been perfected. The operation payed for itself by confiscating of jewellery and gold fillings.
Who did the Nazis sell or trade the gold and jewellery to... and for what ?
They were pretty much surrounded by then, and I'm sure that by answering this question, some accomplices could still be caught...

It's a shame that this thread of hate is still up on ATS. I'll give it about another few hours and if it's not taken down, I will no longer be a part of the ATS community.

This entire thread is so antisemitic, it's not even worth responding to the actual content.

Originally posted by Sheeper
Your comparison with Cambodia stinks. Sicko.



[edit on 27-6-2009 by Sheeper]

Its fake. He was just looking for an angle for his thread of holocaust denial.
The last stage of Genocide is Denial.

Originally posted by ufonautradio
It's a shame that this thread of hate is still up on ATS. I'll give it about another few hours and if it's not taken down, I will no longer be a part of the ATS community.

This entire thread is so antisemitic, it's not even worth responding to the actual content.

I don't think anyone is moved by your imperialistic and undemocratic accusations and demands. if the only thing you can do is condemn your fellow members by marking them as anti-Semitic (which I doubt they actually care about), then good riddance, and close the door on your way out. The anti-Semitic card is dead, not effective anymore. The truth is starting to come out, and a lot of people won't like it. Who cares?

reply to post by Ludde


I'm just curious, but what is the "truth". Can you give me a brief run-down.

Thanks,
~TML

I'm not sure why I opened this thread and I'm less sure of why I read all the posts. The Holocaust was a historically documented event that took place over a period of years. The evidence is there if people cared enough to look. Survivors are still alive and their children still lend witness to the evidence.

I want to write some definitive post that nails all of the people that rationalize, excuse, deny or seek to justify the events that involved the deaths of millions. It's impossible...

The holocaust represents the worst aspects of humanity. It shows what we are capable of doing to each other. It isn't just history...it's part of us. Rwanda reproduced the same circumstances and horror only 10 years ago. Khmer Rouge was the same in Cambodia.

For all those that have made excuses and offered 'ifs & buts' for the holocaust, I have contempt for you. In spite of this, if the same circumstances were to be repeated I'd defend your right to life. The holocaust wasn't about Jews, gypsies, handicapped, homosexuals, mentally impaired...it was about people.

Men, women and children died because too many people made the same excuses as some members in this thread. Ignorance is alive, thriving and unashamed...

Sorry this is my first post! Im in shock to see this thread, I justed watched a doco called selling the killing fields which was about phnom penh government kicking people off their land to sell and build to sell to foreign investors, then I watched the knowing, then before going to bed i saw this post! I just came back from Cambodia and going there has change my life, I went to Phnom Penh and Siem reap, i went to S21 and the killing fields , meet victims , families of the victims even survivors of the regime let alone a lots of landmine victims. To see it with my own eyes has change me , the vibe i got from S21 really messed with me , seeing how their own people could torture their own cause of Pol Pot and his brainwashing just made me think how could this of happened! When i got to the killing fields, the energy there was unbearable, we got a tour guide who's family was killed there ( never will forget him), Walking around the site listening to the guide tell how his family and many others got executed and the genocide there made me lost it, walking on the bones of many innocent people, seeing the tree where they used to bash babies across it, seeing all the graves ,seeing all the bones still sticking out of the ground even the clothing of the victims everywhere ate me. I was seeing blurs of people moving around in the corner of my eyes, so many souls will never get to rest, the guide said he stayed there one night only to hear screaming all night of the victims then watching him breaks down into tears, made me break tears , listening to what happened there , made me angry! even more to hear the Japanese corporate groups now owns it as a tourist income made me even more mad!, how could something like this happen and the world don't care! Driving back to where we stayed, just seeing the poverty , the pollution, the children covered in dirt just messed with me more, but driving back i notice the smiles , people and kids waving at us, just made me think how all off them have suffered in many ways but for them to move on and smile moved me in a different way, the Cambodian people are amazing people, the history of what the country has done and been through is amazing , even to think they are all descendants of one of the most advance races in the world hence the construction of angkor wat and the many temples and cities. Sadly the people are still suffering, their government is selling everything to foreigners, land and all historical locations even, but the people, they still smile and still keep hope. unfortunately not all of them are nice , as they say the rich get richer and the poorer get poorer and to the rich they live in secure fortified housing estates with armed guards while there's poor families living in sheds across the road. Greed is evil! Siem reap was more under control cause it was the main tourist location and the police are not to be messed with, but when i found out that angkor wat was owned by the japanese corporates and all hotels and the main airport too, i was like what the f***! Brand new 5 star hotel right next to a HIV treatment hospital, 100's of kids in front of angkor wat , not in school, selling all the same thing only for someone to come and take the money off them. What the hell is going on, they are some of the most realist people in the world but the are still getting done hard and no one is caring , not even their king seems to care! Western society needs to take a page from them and stop their whinging. i went there of spiritual enlightenment but got a reality check! C'mon Japanese corporates where's your honor!!!!! Hitler cause hell but POL POT caused the next level of hell and still to this day , the people are still getting f***d by their government and no one in the world cares! I pray the world wakes up cause on day we could be living like them and our own government will be selling our land off and our life's!!!! i could keep going be will people listen anyway!

Then I came across the links below. It was an eye-opening revelation to say the least.

radioislam.org...

www.rense.com...

www.rense.com...

rense.com...

The first link was the clincher for me. And yes I realize that it's posted on Radio Islam website but that by itself doesn't mean it isn't true. I've also independently verified the historical data quoted in that article and the numbers do in fact add up. The bottom line is that 6 million jews could not possibly have died in concentration camps. A realistic number is not more than 1.5 million but could be as low as 300,000. When this lower number is examined more carefully, it becomes more and more clear that the jews who did die, died not because of gas chambers but rather because of a variety of reasons such as disease (typhus was common) or starvation due to destruction of transportation infrastructure by allied bombing.

There is very considerable evidence that the Nazi SS used concentration camps as a supply of slave labour for the production of weapons like the V-2 rockets, ME-262 fighters. etc. Therefore it makes more sense to keep the workers alive as long as possible. Now I'm not saying that concentration camp inmates were well treated. Clearly they were not. Living conditions were appalling. But as bad as that is, it's a far cry from the massive, systematic extermination that the holocaust myth has perpetuated.

That the Nazis were a brutal regime is beyond question. But the German people should not be vilified for millions of deaths that never happened.

"With the help of one hundred pages of cross-checked statistics, Professor Rassinier concludes in Le Drame des Juifs européen that the number of Jewish casualties during the Second World War could not have exceeded 1,200,000, and he notes that this has finally been accepted as valid by the World Centre of Contemporary Jewish Documentation at Paris."

this information was found in Chapter 10 of the link I gave in my earlier post which is.
radioislam.org...

By the way, in case you're wondering who Prof. Rassinier is, he was a french socialist, who was arrested and sent to one of the concentration camps during the war so he has no reason to whitewash the truth. After the war he set out to document German atrocities and due to his meticulous research, was able to prove conclusively that the myth of 6 million jews killed was not true.

- Does not genocide mean systematic destruction?

No, it doesn't.

The word you're looking for is annihilation.

Interesting perspective.

Without doubt the most important contribution to a truthful study of the extermination question has been the work of the French historian, Professor Paul Rassinier. The pre-eminent value of this work lies firstly in the fact that Rassinier actually experienced life in the German concentration camps, and also that, as a Socialist intellectual and anti-Nazi, nobody could be less inclined to defend Hitler and National Socialism. Yet, for the sake of justice and historical truth, Rassinier spent the remainder of his post-war years until his death in 1966 pursuing research which utterly refuted the Myth of the Six Million and the legend of Nazi diabolism. From 1933 until 1943, Rassinier was a professor of history in the College d'enseignement général at Belfort, Academie de Besancon. During the war he engaged in resistance activity until he was arrested by the Gestapo on October 30th, 1943, and as a result was confined in the German concentration camps at Buchenwald and Dora until 1945. At Buchenwald, towards the end of the war, he contracted typhus, which so damaged his health that he could not resume his teaching. After the war, Rassinier was awarded the Medaille de la Résistance and the Reconnaisance Francaise, and was elected to the French Chamber of Deputies, from which he was ousted by the Communists in November, 1946. Rassinier then embarked on his great work, a systematic analysis of alleged German war atrocities, in particular the supposed "extermination" of the Jews. Not surprisingly, his writings are little known; they have rarely been translated from the French and none at all have appeared in English. His most important works were: Le Mensonge d'Ulysse (The Lies of Odysseus, Paris, 1949), an investigation of concentration camp conditions based on his own experiences of them; and Ulysse trahi par les Siens (1960), a sequel which further refuted the impostures of propagandists concerning German concentration camps. His monumental task was completed with two final volumes, Le Véritable Proces Eichmann (1962) and Le Drame des Juifs européen (1964), in which Rassinier exposes the dishonest and reckless distortions concerning the fate of the Jews by a careful statistical analysis. The last work also examines the political and financial significance of the extermination legend and its exploitation by Israel and the Communist powers. One of the many merits of Rassinier's work is exploding the myth of unique German "wickedness"; and he reveals with devastating force how historical truth has been obliterated in an impenetrable fog of partisan propaganda. His researches demonstrate conclusively that the fate of the Jews during World War Two, once freed from distortion and reduced to proper proportions, loses its much vaunted "enormity" and is seen to be only one act in a greater and much wider tragedy. In an extensive lecture tour in West Germany in the spring of 1960, Professor Rassinier emphasised to his German audiences that it was high time for a rebirth of the truth regarding the extermination legend, and that the Germans themselves should begin it since the allegation remained a wholly unjustifiable blot on Germany in the eyes of the world.

Here is another quote from the radio islam site.

Here we may briefly summarise the data on Jewish war- time casualties. Contrary to the figure of over 9 million Jews in German- occupied territory put forward at the Nuremberg and Eichmann trials, it has already been estabhshed that after extensive emigration, approximately 3 million were living in Europe, excluding the Soviet Union. Even when the Jews of German-occupied Russia are included (the majority of Russian Jews were evacuated beyond German control), the overall number probably does not exceed four million. Himmler's statistician, Dr. Richard Korherr and the World Centre of Contemporary Jewish Documentation put the number respectively at 5,550,000 and 5,294,000 when German- occupied territory was at its widest, but both these figures include the two million Jews of the Baltic and western Russia without paying any attention to the large number of these who were evacuated. However, it is at least an admission from the latter organisation that there were not even six million Jews in Europe and western Russia combined. Nothing better illustrates the declining plausibility of the Six Million legend than the fact that the prosecution at the Eichmann trial deliberately avoided mentioning the figure. Moreover, official Jewish estimates of the casualties are being quietly revised downwards. Our analysis of the population and emigration statistics, as well as the studies by the Swiss Baseler Nachrichten and Professor Rassinier, demonstrate that it would have been simply impossible for the number of Jewish casualties to have exceeded a limit of one and a half million. It is very significant, therefore, that the World Centre of Contemporary Jewish Documentation in Paris now states that only 1,485,292 Jews died from all causes during the Second World War, and although this figure is certainly too high, at least it bears no resemblance at all to the legendary Six Million. As has been noted earlier, the Jewish statistician Raul Hilberg estimates an even lower figure of 896,892. This is beginning to approach a realistic figure, and the process of revision is certain to continue. Doubtless, several thousand Jewish persons did die in the course of the Second World War, but this must be seen in the context of a war that cost many millions of innocent victims on all sides. To put the matter in perspective, for example, we may point out that 700,000 Russian civilians died during the siege of Leningrad, and a total of 2,05O,OOO German civilians were killed in Allied air raids and forced repatriation after the war. In 1955, another neutral Swiss source, Die Tat of Zurich (January 19th, 1955), in a survey of all Second World War casualties based on figures of the lnternational Red Cross, put the "Loss of victims of persecution because of politics, race or religion who died in prisons and concentration camps between 1939 and 1945" at 300,000, not all of whom were Jews, and this figure seems the most accurate assessment.

[edit on 27/6/09 by neformore]

I never really get holocaust deniers. You can't really deny the fact that so many people died. It's in about as much poor taste as an oven joke.

reply to post by Studenofhistory
Thanks for the paste job that features a 'wall of text.' The language is way below objective and highlights the perspective of the author. You know what I found funny? The guy is arguing over numbers. He's not challenging the existence of 'concentration camps.'

His most important works were: Le Mensonge d'Ulysse (The Lies of Odysseus, Paris, 1949), an investigation of concentration camp conditions based on his own experiences of them; and Ulysse trahi par les Siens (1960), a sequel which further refuted the impostures of propagandists concerning German concentration camps. His monumental task was completed with two final volumes, Le Véritable Proces Eichmann (1962) and Le Drame des Juifs européen (1964), in which Rassinier exposes the dishonest and reckless distortions concerning the fate of the Jews by a careful statistical analysis. The last work also examines the political and financial significance of the extermination legend and its exploitation by Israel and the Communist powers.

Call me a cynic, but it's hard to accept that a camp survivor would describe critics of the camps in the words emphasised. There's no way he could have survived the camps without seeing the gross mistreatment and starvation of the prisoners. That leaves two interpretations...he wasn't there or he is lying about his experience there. Enough footage and images are extant to prove that starvation, cruelty and death were mundane in the camps....

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/39f8f9a0e7c6.jpg[/atsimg]

Who are these people? Are they Jewish? Who can tell? Why are they emaciated? The image is part of a sequence taken at Belsen by the German camp guards. Arguing over numbers is redundant when normal people met their end in this way.

reply to post by neformore Great post there. Straight to the point and very well written

Originally posted by neformore
No one denies the deaths of the homosexuals
No one denies the deaths of the romanies
No one denies the deaths of the mentally handicapped and infirm
No one denies the deaths of the poles
No one denies the deaths of the russian prisoners of war

People only deny the deaths of the jews.

They question the numbers, they say it was "exaggerated". Some claim the whole thing was a hoax. The single, consistent point and argument presented is always linked to the jews.

I'm not denying what happened, nor to the social and ethnic groups it was meted out to.

The question I'd like to put forward is why do we not hear such vocal outcry from any of those other groups of victims you mention in your post?

Could it be that the jewish group have made such public cultural-collective demands that the event be recognised and so much so, enshrined in law? A case of 'the squeaking wheel getting the oil' perhaps?

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
Then I came across the links below. It was an eye-opening revelation to say the least.

radioislam.org...

www.rense.com...

www.rense.com...

rense.com...

The first link was the clincher for me. And yes I realize that it's posted on Radio Islam website but that by itself doesn't mean it isn't true. I've also independently verified the historical data quoted in that article and the numbers do in fact add up. The bottom line is that 6 million jews could not possibly have died in concentration camps. A realistic number is not more than 1.5 million but could be as low as 300,000. When this lower number is examined more carefully, it becomes more and more clear that the jews who did die, died not because of gas chambers but rather because of a variety of reasons such as disease (typhus was common) or starvation due to destruction of transportation infrastructure by allied bombing.

There is very considerable evidence that the Nazi SS used concentration camps as a supply of slave labour for the production of weapons like the V-2 rockets, ME-262 fighters. etc. Therefore it makes more sense to keep the workers alive as long as possible. Now I'm not saying that concentration camp inmates were well treated. Clearly they were not. Living conditions were appalling. But as bad as that is, it's a far cry from the massive, systematic extermination that the holocaust myth has perpetuated.

That the Nazis were a brutal regime is beyond question. But the German people should not be vilified for millions of deaths that never happened.

Quick lesson on basic economics for you, and it helps shatter the complete ignorance of the whole "Nazis didn't kill Jews, they were their labor force! It was the Allies that did it!" Aside from that reasoning being more than ludicrous when it's read aloud in the face of resounding evidence otherwise, here's some points to ponder:

1) Provide evidence Nazi soldiers/officials died at the same rate their Jewish 'laborers' did in the face of allied bombing of supply routes

2) Supply and Demand: Perhaps the Jews were a labor force in concentration camps, however when your supply of Jewish laborers exceeds the demand for whatever supplies and equipment you export, you have an excess of laborers. I'm quite sure Hitler didn't give the excess laborers comfortable pensions and a choice retirement in Nazi territory.

2b) Just poked another hole in the "Jews were laborers and died because of allied bombing" theory. While the allies were bombing these supply routes for equipment, did the laborers still work? Where are the massive piles of German equipment that wasn't able to be transported out of the camp? If they weren't making equipment because they couldn't get it out, what were they doing? Did Hitler let them make a vacation of their spare time? Don't think so.

3) The literature from the Nazis, from eye-witnesses, and from physical evidence more than shows that it was Hitler's ultimate goal to exterminate Jews and other non-Aryans completely.

Spare me from the numbers argument, because no one knows the exact number. However, it is easy to infer from internal Reich documents and census' that the number far exceeds what holocaust deniers espouse.




If you have a problem with Israel/Zionism, attack its policies, attack its government, whatever. But denying the holocaust or saying "it wasn't so bad" is doing the truth a huge disservice.

reply to post by citizen smith


Quick reply to this:

None of the groups you mentioned are a collective group with a representative body to speak for them.

Even Russian POWs and Poles were unspoken for: Communist dictators received Eastern Europe as a spoil of war, so they had no need to ask for more reparations.