Denial Of The Holocaust

Hi ATSers,
whilst travelling to Cambodia last year, I was confronted with the realities of a nation that had been to Hell and yet, somehow managed to bounce back.
Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge had managed to exterminate much of Cambodia's inhabitants under the guise of revolution.
Mass Extermination/Graves. Atrocities. Dislocation and elimination of families. Torture.
The Camdodians are rather relunctant to talk about these things (apart from tour guides). the country is bustling and its occupants are polite, proud and admirable.
They have all the evidence needed to convince one of these past attrocities.
They have no laws for punishment of those whom still respect or indeed follow PolPot.
Not like Hitler.
Any mention of Hitler in a favorable light can bring a barrage of insult, insecurity and accusation of Anti-semitism.

Anti-Semitism??

With the great genocide 'Apparently' commited by Nazi's, why are there so many, if indeed not millions of Jewish peoples crying in the world every day.
Does not genocide mean systematic destruction; and if not fully accomplished wouldn't that infact be 'Attempted Genocide'- if we can even call it that.

As Shakespear wrote: 'He dost pretest too much'!

Most of the worlds Jews are converts anyway, unless they got away from genocide en-mass!
Interesting how even converts claim that they are of the Semitic Race!!!???

How convenient; I think I might convert next week.

But dont deny the Holocaust.
You may just get thrown in Gaol, or have your career all but ruined- like Mel Gibson.

Sickening. Learn from the Cambodians. The rest of us whom had families involved and deceased within the great wars want to move on.
Why on Earth cant the Jewish community?
Oh I forgot- empathy is your tool.

Well, Pol Pot definitely earned his place in hell beside Hitler and co. And?
Do you call it "apparent" extermination? Apparent atrocities/dislocation and ctr? Nope, you have no problem with this even if numbers of killed by Pol Pot are not known. Even if only few (relatively to number that was killed) mass graves are found. Even if you have witness testimonies as only real prove to scale of atrocities.
But it is not OK with you once it is about Holocaust. Then - it is "apparent", empathy your weapon ,attempted??? genocide - let me tell you, if someone , God forbid, would try to kill you and only cuts off limb or two - i bet you would not let this guy be free again.
Barf!

I honestly cant see this thread lasting too long, or it going too long without you getting a lot of abuse

I also come from a country that suffered centuries of religious cleansing in order to wipe out Catholicism. The figures add anywhere up to 3.5 million depending on how you view certain incidents.

While it left a certain legacy that has almost completely died out at this stage, we never looked for any major recognition of the fact, or any retribution for the deeds and this is one of the reasons I sort of agree with what you are saying.

I don't agree with the "Attempted Genocide" thing, I think that will cause serious insult to the legacy of many.

One of the points I would like to add is that while over the past few centuries, possible hundreds of millions of people have been killed as a result of ethnic cleansing.. even during WW2, the Jewish deaths contributed to a large amount but nowhere near a majority of those that were murdered by the Nazi's.

One of the main reasons IMO for the PR campaign that exploded around the west after the holocaust was to aid in public acceptance for the creation of Israel. Since then it has completely blown past the point of all fairness in relation to freedom of expression and is IMO blatantly disrespectful to the countless others who have died in similar circumstances.. possibly even worse circumstances.

The thing is, its not the average Jewish person that created this stigma, (even though many will be the first to point the anti semitic finger.. which I also find unfair because everyone is stereotyped and subject to criticism) - It is the pro Israel 'Zionists' that have pushed this to where it is.

The deed was still absolutely horrible and shocking but I am totally critical of the use of it in order to push an agenda.. I find that disgusting.

[edit on 27/6/09 by Dermo]

S + F, you make some interesting points. I personally believe there are less than 500 Jews who were even alive around the time of the Holocaust or were connected to it in someway, and the rest are converts or later birthed. However, I question the official story of the Holocaust as I question the official story of everything. Six million is grossly exaggerated and inconsistent. More people were killed than the Jews, so I refuse to keep my mouth open like they're special or above any other human. In fact, some dude started to cry holocaust denier on one thread where we were discussing the identify of the true Hebrew Israelites, see last page here: www.abovetopsecret.com... . Slavery happened, they asked us to get over it, the Holocaust happened, they want to use this card till the end of times.

there are a lot of jews that feel they need to have the unquestioning sympathy of the world in order to support the state of isreal. this may well be true.

the establishment of a jewish state in that area once the british pulled out was planed before the 1930's and the treatment of jews under the nazi regime, however, after the war was over, because of the sympathy and guilt felt after the discovery of concentration camps, support was received that otherwise wouldn't have been.

you see, hitler had originally tried to deport the jewish population, it would have been far easier, but no other country would take them. anti-semitism was rife at the time and, after the war, this hadn't really changed. a lot of politicians, and even ordinary people, still didn't like jews. the only difference was that now they felt bad, because, although they didn't like jews, they didn't think they deserved to be wiped out just like that. this sentiment was very astutely used by jews in the area of palestine, whom had never encountered nazism.

because of the fact that the jews in the third reich might have been saved had they had a place to go, these people set up a state of which any jew anywhere was a citizen. this suited the politicians on the allied side, because it solved "the jewish question" for them to. the palistinian jews, zionists, then used a combination of emotional balckmail and political goodwill and manipulation in order to gain the support required to hold this area.

most of the jews of europe had indeed been wiped out, the holocaust and holocaust denial is not important to many for any but the most cynical political reasons.

i believe that although close examination will always reveal a holocaust, the scream of anti-semite at any mention of the holocaust examination is because many people and countries would not like their part in it, which is whitewashed in official histories, to be widely understood.

I have a question? Is it immoral to say that anyone under the age of 60 did not suffer through the holocaust? I mean what is the age range?

To be a holocaust survivor today wouldn't a person of German Jewish descent have to of been Born In A Camp?

I ask all this mainly because I have seen folks promoting books about being holocaust survivors but they were in their late 50s.... And I know that math does not add up. (And yes those same folks did get exposed as frauds)

reply to post by titorite


Since Nazi rule ended in 1945, 2009-1945=64. Anyone who is younger then that, has no special connection to this tragedy. I mean - there could be post-WW2 problems due to torn families, lost property ,dead relatives - but it is indeed part of global war tragedy.
So if you read a book published by someone who is today younger then 64 - you can be sure that it is not connected.
How it is connected to the issue though?
By the way -as much as half of German Jews actually fled the country before Holocaust. They knew who exactly Hitler and friends were, so they ran.
This was not the case with lot of other Jewish European communities. So German Jewish - is not necesary. Born in camp - also not always, there are a lot of Jewish kids grown by non-Jewish families or even monks. By the way -you do not find opposite stories, ha? Polish catholic kid being raised in Polish Jewish family during WW2 since Nazis got his parents. Never heard of that.
Weird why is that if there was "apparent" genocide?

reply to post by KRISKALI777


Sure, millions may have been systematically executed. Boo Hoo Jew, get over it. I don't mean you have to forget about it or stop mourning it but for christ's sake, you don't have to use it against the rest of the world ALL THE TIME. Every single race and nation that exists has been tread upon at some stage of history.
I, for one, can see some qualities in Adolf Hitler that WILL DEFINATELY see him alongside great conquerers like Alexander and Julius and Agamemnon and the like. In hundreds of years from now, the holocaust will be just as accepted as the rest of history's atrocities and the perpetrator will be revered as a great military ruler, like Vlad the Impaler or Nero or Ivan the Terrible.
So do us ALL a favour, mourn on the 'inside' and DON'T label everyone who doesn't feel for you as anti-semitic.
I'm all for Jews, and any religion for that matter, and I wish them all the best and I also think that the holocaust was a very dark time in the world's history and I hope things like that won't happen again, BUT, I don't need to see Jews use their past as leverage against the rest of us every time they want something.

reply to post by NathanNewZealand


ATSers,
don't get me wrong; I do feel sorry for any particular group that gets victimized! Compassion doesn't equal ignorant stupidity though.

I will go on a limb and say that:
There are many whom have converted to Judaism to reap the spoils, ride on the coat-tails of empathy, which the non-jewish world has been 'beaten' regularly with there stick! Not to mention enjoy the monetry spoils as well.
Did you know your government (western) regularly pledge large amounts of money to Israel to buy arms? Think about it!

My take on the holocaust is that it probably happened, perhaps with lower numbers than claimed by the Zionist mass media. But when we investigate the source it's increasingly clear that, like 911, it was done by infiltrated elements of the establishment to further goals of population reductions and control, through war. So, it was not just a genocide, it was a psyop. And it is this psyop aspect of it that forces one of two roads to the awaken mind: Either you realise that it's a manipulative meme and just ignore it, or you realise it's a manipulative meme and go to the source of it and find out who was really behind the holocaust and who has the largest vested interest in it becoming such a relevant and contemporary discussion when, considering the recent history of the world, it's not that significant, from a numerical, statistical, point of view. And this points us to Zionism, the city of London, Financeers and, possibly at the very top satanists and/or elitist powerbrokers.

My respect to the victims of the holocaust, however many they were. However the eye at the top of the pyramid should know that a human being has two eyes per default, so it's outnumbered...

Want to talk about a genocide that matters? Talk vaccines. Talk flouride. Talk Aspartame. Talk GMO and Monsanto. Talk big oil and the military industrial complex. Talk big pharma and their catalogue of toxicity. Talk food processing and the destruction of the human diet. Why look back? Want genocide? It's all around you... and so are the usual suspects.

The Jews that died in concentration camps died because of malnourishment and diseases. There was no mass extermination.


The Holocaust is an excuse to loot Germany, scientific and financially and killing their identity like in most other globalised nations. Germany was aware that we are on the verge of the new age, Hitler started to live up to it and tried to prepare the Aryan Race to unite so they would leap all together as one into the age of Aquarius.

Your comparison with Cambodia stinks. Pol Pot wasn't trying to commit genocide on a specific race or religion, he was trying to get rid of any genetic imperfections in the gene pool. And I happen to know quite a few Cambodians and what they have told me about Cambodia is a different picture, they describe it as a nasty, dirty, third world country that is hardly flourishing like you have said, it's a place where it is common practice for someone to randomly drive up on a scooter and chop off your arm just to steal your bracelet.

I believe you have a dark soul and are speaking nonsense out of your pooper. What the Nazi's and Muslims have done and attempted to do to the Jews over the centuries and still ongoing is no little thing. Sicko.



[edit on 27-6-2009 by Sheeper]

EDIT:never mind. sorry, changed my mind about posting.

[edit on 27/6/09 by pieman]

Dude, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You've been to Cambodia, so you can speak of the Cambodian genocide...but have you ever been to Poland, Austria, or Germany and seen a concentration camp? I've been to Auschwitz, and it's a real as everything Pol Pot did to the Cambodians. I understand that there is something funny about the fact that the Jews were given Israel after it all, but do NOT blame the innocent Jewish people. This was NOT a hoax. School's definitely need to learn more about other genocides like in Rwanda, Soviet Russia, Cambodia, East Timor, and China instead of just being barraged by info about the holocaust. I'm with you 100% on other genocides needing to be brought to light, but do not think for one second that the holocaust didn't happen. I stood in the last remaining gas chamber there, and looked up to where they put in the Zyklon-B and killed tens of thousands. That is some real # right there.

I think that stifling honest debate and investigation of the Holocaust only adds to the problems. Such a horrific event should be shown, even in its most distasteful aspects, to the world, how else are we to avoid the same mistakes ? And the truth can bear the light of investigation, only lies have something to fear. The figure of six million was used after the First World War too, does this figure have ritual significance, as Holocaust means "a burnt offering" ? The figure for those murdered at Auschwitz has been changed on a plaque situated there from 4 million to 1.5 million, why ? And because of a lack of explanation, naturally people will question the official series of events. I believe Hitler was a patsy, a drug addled puppet for genuinely evil, darker figures who we will probably never know about. I believe that too many PEOPLE Jews, Christians and other faiths died as a result of this page in history, we should forget about arbitrary divisions and remember these were all human beings who died needlessly. There have been other incidences of genocide in recent history such as with Stalin in the Soviet Union ( Jews killing christians !) and China under Mao, which were in greater numbers which are not as well publicized and do not provke such revulsion, why is this ?
And why does n't the plight of the Palestinians elicit a stronger reaction in people ? The Jewish people suffer indescribable horrors and then feel entitled to inflict similar horrors onto others ? Not to mention the Jewish role in the murder of possibly a hundred million Black Africans during the slave trade ? I think this shows that an element within the Jewish community are very elitist and are effectively saying that hundres of millions of non-Jewish lives are not worth as much as six million Jews, where have we heard this before ? Babylonian Talmud anyone ?

Whilst its one matter to mourn that event as a culture. It's totally another to demand legal statute be made to have opposition to the fact an offence whilst carrying out the same treatment to another people based on their ethnicity



[edit on 27-6-2009 by citizen smith]

I think the dispute is mostly with the body count rather than with the event itself.

Oddly, census records from the period in fact show that the populations of certain ethnic groups where in fact much lower than the seven figure number used.

Oddly as well, the only source for the massive number in the death toll is by an author of a certain religious persuasion which was not backed up with any numerical proof, just a figure tossed into the wind.

Interestingly, IBM was in charge of the prisoner tracking system used during the war. Would they not have accurate figures stored somewhere? Or did they destroy them in order to hide their sales and maintenance support contracts to the regime?

Lots of questions, few answers.

Personally I'm on the fence and am neither for or against any of this. I just find it highly suspect that questioning the official line can result in a prison term.

my 2c

[edit on 27-6-2009 by warrenb]

It is not about acceptance or denial of holocaust, i think it is more about recognizing genocide as a crime against humanity and we should not be measuring it based on figures. Intent of committing crime and actually committing should not be distinguished. I have also heard about Combodian massacre and all these can be best glimpsed in this documentary.

video.google.com...

reply to post by Ludde


There are far more than 500 Holocaust survivors still alive. My grandma is one of them, and in her networking groups there are far over 500 in just the state where we live. Perhaps even over 500 in our county.

reply to post by TheRebel

There is a few more nations/groups on the German Nazi list for extermination, so we can speak instead of denaing- more about of monopolising/hijacking of holocaust by one nation, or rather certain fraction of that nation known as the Zionists. Dont forget that the victims came from all around the Europe and often they tought about themeselfes as the citizens of that countries being not of Jewish faith and not counted till then as Jews in the eyes of Orthodox law. There was Germans that choose them and " delicateli remind " them about some jewish blood in their veins...
And besides: in our civilised law till now criminal intent is not the same as criminal act, and I hope it will stay like this.

Peace


[edit on 27-6-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]

[edit on 27-6-2009 by ZenOnKwalsky]