Humans created God.

Originally posted by Hemisphere

Originally posted by Imago Dei

There is only one flaw in your "logic" and that is that the bible has been irrefuteably proven to have been written by a superior supernatural divine mind. Albeit with the use of human scribes taking divine dictation.

Irrefutably? By whom? When did the "good news" hit the stands? The 10th Commandment describes how Jews are to treat their slaves. That's truly divine. What did Moses have, hearing loss? These are the people delivered from Pharaoh? So that they could "do unto others"? Or as Hillel the Elder might have said: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." Sound a bit familiar? A little plagiarism in God's ghost writing perhaps? Maybe a scribe misheard the name Hillel and it sounded like "Jesus"?

Your unsubstantiated statements are what is flawed.

Ivan Panins bible numerics irrefutebaly proves the bible is supernatural. Not to mention creation. Its irrefuteable. So your thread post wont refute the irrefuteable. That hit the stands when Ivan Panin respnded to a challenge in the New York Sun November 19 1899 (110 years ago) and it's been unchallenged and not refuted ever since by the greatest scientific minds of the day, right up until today. I have the response and the proof, and near all Panins writings. They are available to anyone who looks for them

Oh you don't like what's written in the biblet? Well that don't refute it. Every cotton picken word of the greek and hebrew scripture is supernatural. FACT!! Look up the word irrefuteable, you'lll find it means that it cant be refuted.

If you work for someone your a slave and if someone works for you, you have slaves but we call them employees now or Human Resources or Human Capital, and today we have laws to enurse the minimum wage is paid (note not maximun wage) same diff, we all work for the man. So the bible is an excellent HR guide among other things.

Panin's findings where the death warrant to jibberish from all an sundry who wish to challenge the verbal inspriation of scripture. It is no longer open for debate.

I will be posting the evidence when it has been transposed for all the mockers of God's word to behold. I dont expect anyone to change their ways I only do it to strenghthen the belivers faith and highlight the folly of all mockers.













[edit on 23-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

[edit on 23-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by KarlG
[
How has God proven he's real?

Creation isn't proved AT ALL!

God does NOT have power over me. Neither does Satan or whatever you believe in that's the opposite of God. They ALL have NO power over me.

And why would God call me a Pagan?

Pagan = a religion dealing with witchcraft and forces of nature, and is mostly associated with good as its practitioners work with white magic.

God would not call me anything. I CALL God. Not the other way around.

Oh right sorry I forgot you still think your calling the shots, forgive me...

Your right, you couldn't be classified has pagan, my bad.

Ivan Panins bible numerics irrefutebaly proves the bible is supernatural. Every word of it. if you seek the truth you'll find it, everything else is hot air and farts blowing in the wind.

Crea....tion is proof of a crea....tor = God for short.



Oh by the way to all those who are running off to google Ivan Panin or Wicked-pedia Ivan Panin, you'll need to dig a bit deeper to find the truth. Assuming thats what your after of course, so dont bother coming back with a one page so called refute form a naysayor on the web who didnt even have the time to study the work, that don't count, Panin spent 50 years on this stuff on top of 50 years work by other men, 100 years to bring his truth to you, so keep it real.





[edit on 23-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by Imago Dei


Call it what ever suits you, it is slavery and not employment the Commandments are speaking to. Like other tribes the Jews took hostages during wars. The same Jews also needed to be reminded at this same point, hundreds if not thousands of years into their tribal life, and but a few years outside of Pharoah's evil dominion, that murder and stealing were also very bad.

I submit the following from "Mathematicians' Statement on the Bible Codes":

We are making this statement concerning what have been called "Bible codes" or "Torah codes". We recognize that many sincere people take this phenomenon seriously, which compels us to speak out on the basis of what our mathematical training tells us about the evidence claimed for this alleged phenomenon.

There is a common belief in the general community to the effect that many mathematicians, statisticians, and other scientists consider the claims to be credible. This belief is incorrect. On the contrary, the almost unanimous opinion of those in the scientific world who have studied the question is that the theory is without foundation. The signatories to this letter have themselves examined the evidence and found it entirely unconvincing.

The list of signed mathmaticians and the complete article:

Mathematicians' Statement on the Bible Codes

A number of debunking articles more specific to Panin:

cs.anu.edu.au...

cs.anu.edu.au...

cs.anu.edu.au...

Panin was the Dan Brown of his day. If his contrivance was widely accepted you would not be his only torch bearer on this site. Check out the last link involving the assassinations forcast in Moby Dick and tell me that was not supernatural. You see what you wish to see. That's my opinion.

Originally posted by Imago Dei
Ivan Panins bible numerics irrefutebaly proves the bible is supernatural.

Furthermore, "Image of God", “supernatural” is an extremely vague term. It does not determine that the Biblical author was your image of "God", a vampire, a leprechaun, the flying spaghetti monster, Zeus or the chupacabra. No author was determined by Panin. Just that the author was "supernatural". I contend that even if he proved irrefutably that the author was "supernatural" and he has not, that the "supernatural" author could be anything unimaginable including pure evil. That's if you consider that something supernatural in origin could be expressed, experienced and understood in our "natural" world. If I were to consider that possible, I would also have to consider that the Bible was as likely an evil deception as an enlightened guide to life. I do not. I consider it a wildly exaggerated, many authored history of one not so ancient tribe and it's cult offshoot.

"a man a plan a canal panama" - supernatural?

By the way, I did notice you had no retort to Hillel the Elder. The numbers man has you transfixed. Let's discuss Rubik's Cube next. What do you say?

Westcott never accepted Panins work and said so to him in writing but he never even attempted to debunk it nor could he.

The following quotes from the diaries and letters of Westcott and Hort demonstrate their serious departures from orthodoxy, revealing their opposition to evangelical Protestantism and sympathies with Rome and ritualism. Many more could be given. Their views on Scripture and the Text are highlighted.

www.jesus-is-lord.com...


I'm the only torch barer obvioulsy because not many know about it. And because it will soon enjoy a resurgence of epic proportion, disinf merchants have set up so called "debunking" websites which are all lies. "If you cant beat em lie" is thier modus operandi.

You went looking for something to debunk it because you had already made up your mind to disagree didt you? Be honest now. You probably never heard of the guy before you googled it. I see you googled my Imago Dei as well. Very clever of you.

I have been here only a short time, I have found this site to be a place filled mostly with ill informed armchair philosophers who spend half of their lives sitting in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there only to spend the next half contentedly gazing at it.

Those links debunk nothing accept the credibility of it's creator. You dont know what supernatural means? Google it like you have done with the names Ivan Panin and Imago Dei. Or look it up in the dictionary.

Why would I want to discuss a bloke that supposedly created the sandwhich? What does he have to do with the price of fish? Is he making fish sandwhiches or what? He probably was instrumental in leading Christ to the cross. Just another of the many cult leaders. Do you worship the sandwhich maker or something? .

Actually panin called it a superior mind, the bible claims to be writtten by God, the mathamtical formula proves that it is, the same pattern of mathmatics in the bible is the same that runs throughout nature.

This is not bible code either.

I had a good look through the site you posted, frankly its rediculous to claim that this drivel debunks 50 years of a mans life with the click of a button. It doesnt hold water.

By the way, I became a believer in the God and saviour of the bible long before I heard of Ivan Panin's amazing discovery, the words in the bible have the power to convert a soul quite well without his work, which as I have said on other posts, only really serves to bolster a believers existing faith rather than to convert the heathen. You know what you can do with your rubics cube pal.

That's what I think.


Repeat:

Oh by the way to all those who are running off to google Ivan Panin or Wicked-pedia Ivan Panin, you'll need to dig a bit deeper to find the truth. Assuming thats what your after of course, so dont bother coming back with a one page so called refute form a naysayor on the web who didnt even have the time to study the work, that don't count, Panin spent 50 years on this stuff on top of 50 years work by other men, 100 years to bring his truth to you, so keep it real.

The fact is the man used the scientific method over 50 years to irrefuteably prove this phenomena, the site you posted is full of jokers and mockers, nothing more. Panin has produced 46000 pages of irrefuteable scientific mathmatical data on the sucbject. So all you mockers and go and put your head in a bucket of water three times and pull it out twice.








[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by Imago Dei


Imago, I ask you to please not post your entire reply as a quote of mine. Thank you, I presume it was inadvertent.

I was a practicing Roman Catholic for 50+ years and so there was no need for my Googling "Imago Dei" as Opus Dei (God's work or the work of God) is rather close. Just an educated guess there. That's my "modus operandi". You have a website, religious in nature I suspect. I hope that's going well.

Imago, I have a very different vision of a creator or a creative force than you, that's clear. My intuition tells me there is something more to our very different polarities if you will. Something I suspect is nearly genetic for lack of a better term. I'm going out on a limb here but would you mind telling me are you "orange"? If you are or were raised in or around it you will know exactly what I mean. I'm green. An odd statement considering I am a former RC. Sorry to get off track there I'm just curious.

Of course I Googled Ivan Panin as did anyone interested in your posts. I suspect you have not yet Googled Hillel the Elder. Of course I know what supernatural means. I'm not sure you do. And why is it you're still here with "ill informed armchair philosophers"? I think you like the challenge.

We will not agree on Panin. What I can do with my "Rubik's Cube"? That's not very Christ-like. Sorry to have provoked that, my bad. Intuition again, are you into MMA or something of that sort? I get a hostile vibe from you, not directed at me or anything in particular perhaps life in general. Just some sort of internal struggle. Again, just curious.

You seem fervent to say the least in your Biblical beliefs. I sincerely hope it works for you in this life and the next if that's where it all leads. I bid you peace in your life's journey.

Oookay... Absolute deviation from the original post.

But who's complaining?

To the OP:

So 1.) you're an atheist, and 2.) you believe that God is a construct of humankind?

Wow, I didn't see that coming at all.

But seriously, man... that's all well and good, but a deist is just going to say: "Well, if there is no God, how did the universe come to be in existence? How can the Big Bang be the source and origin of it all, when the most basic laws of chemistry and physics require that there be input of matter and energy into a chemical reaction?"

...and round and round we go.

imago,

you seem to set in your idea to change your mind. that bothers me. try explaining why the "naysayers" are wrong instead of just declaring it. that would help to convince others you are right

[edit on 24-6-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

reply to post by Hemisphere


Yes inadvertant quote on your quote, my bad.

Im not green or orange, those colours where created to cause division among men, very successfully I might add. The troubles in Northern Ireland where fueled by the love of money, inbred hatred, drugs and politics, none if any of the paramilitary groups members on both sides where rigteous men of faith.

You cant disagree with the findings of Ivan Panin any more than you can disagree with gravity. If you jump of the roof, gravity will break your legs even if you "disagree" and think you can fly.

I didnt tell what to do with your reubiks cubes I left it up to your imagination. Not very Christ like? Im not the Christ.

I'm not hostile at all, I just detest unsubstantiated disinformation and mockery. If I am battling with anything internally it's probably with the amount of time I am wasting in futile discussion on this forum when I should be spending my time on more fruitful endeavors. Mind you is life not a struggle for us all at least at some level? Trials and tribulations etc etc...

All the best to you.

Ps. I dont have a website, I was commenting on the website that you posted the so "called panin debunked" link too.

I did google Hilliel, I see he invented the sandwhich, as I said I don't know why you want to discuss Him, Ive never heard of him, what is his claim to fame, and why is he worthy of discussion??

What's MMA? Mixed Martial Arts? Im a black belt in Tai Qwon Do - or as my uncle (coach of the Northern Ireland Judo squad in the 1990 Common wealth games in New Zealand calls it, "No Can Do"












[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

reply to post by KarlG



I believe "WE" create God.

I find that I need to remind God of this very fact periodically.

I have to get very stern with God sometimes and let him/her know how it is and I say something like this :

"Listen up God ! If it wasn't for us people You wouldn't even exist So you better get your s#!t together and do a better job, if you still want to BE !!"

I am very serious. I realy believe man created God and I speak to
him/her as I feel.

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
imago,

you seem to set in your idea to change your mind. that bothers me. try explaining why the "naysayers" are wrong instead of just declaring it. that would help to convince others you are right

[edit on 24-6-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

I am in the process of posting evidence of panins lifes work soon. The danger of internet forums is that people can tend to believe a so called website that is "debunking" this mans work when it isn't, it is simply mocking it. There is nothing wrong with being a fanatical follower and promoter of truth IE a fan of the truth, surely not?

I simply need to resign myself to the fact that even so called men of the cloth rejected Panin's work when faced with the facts, when I accept that most don't care for the truth and they simply make sport of it, I guess it wont bother me as much.

If Christ couldnt save the whole world, then little old me surely can't. However if one comes to the knowledge of a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the one day I can rejoice with them in eternity. One never knows if planted seeds will grow to be harvested but one lives in hope, the growth is up to almighty God.

I will try to behave myself in a more objective fashion in future, I dont mean to be a nuisance. But your quite right, I will not be moved on the validity and import of this mans findings and once again it needs to be brought to the worlds attention to challenge the great minds of the day to refute it if they can, as was done back in 1899 not one did or could. As for my comments on that "naysaying" wesbite, I make no appology, it's bunkum, and I'm not going to waste my time wading through all it's minutae to explain why I conclude as such as they have given skant regard to truth and do not sunstantiate their claims. If that bothers you, well, it's only an internet forum huh? And I'm just a fanatic.


Oh and finally not to mention, HIS FINDINGS ARE IRREFUTEABLE - WHICH IS AN ACCEPTED FACT - That means THEY CANT BE REFUTED!

Sorry Im being fanatical again...




[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by azureskys
reply to post by KarlG

 

I believe "WE" create God.

I find that I need to remind God of this very fact periodically.

I have to get very stern with God sometimes and let him/her know how it is and I say something like this :

"Listen up God ! If it wasn't for us people You wouldn't even exist So you better get your s#!t together and do a better job, if you still want to BE !!"

I am very serious. I realy believe man created God and I speak to
him/her as I feel.

Lol, good for you does HE/She/it, ever answer you back...??

reply to post by Imago Dei



thank you for not getting up in arms about this as many people can and do do about their beliefs.

i do think all should try for truth and a courteous way of discussing facts and ideas is essential or people will shut down to others opinions

but being fanatical about the truth, that makes me wary. Maybe its a stigma on the word "fanatical", but i think we should never give ourselves over entirely to an idea or to think of it as an absolute truth. we should be constantly re-evaluating what we hold true. but thats besides the point i guess.

i forgot half of what i meant to say while attempting to make this make sense to people other than myself.

thanks for polite discourse. its always welcome. i am always interested in learning more about everything.

and to the thread starter, im confused at your definition of atheist. could you clear that up briefly if you dont mind?

[edit on 24-6-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

thank you for not getting up in arms about this as many people can and do do about their beliefs.

i do think all should try for truth and a courteous way of discussing facts and ideas is essential or people will shut down to others opinions

but being fanatical about the truth, that makes me wary. Maybe its a stigma on the word "fanatical", but i think we should never give ourselves over entirely to an idea or to think of it as an absolute truth. we should be constantly re-evaluating what we hold true. but thats besides the point i guess.

i forgot half of what i meant to say while attempting to make this make sense to people other than myself.

thanks for polite discourse. its always welcome. i am always interested in learning more about everything.

and to the thread starter, im confused at your definition of atheist. could you clear that up briefly if you dont mind?

[edit on 24-6-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

Your welcome. I must admit the Panin fanaticism is quite fresh with me at present as I have just received , this week, copies of much of his work as well as his english translation of the Greek new testament. Im very excited and thrilled as I have waited over 2 months for it.

I take your point one has to be careful and remain balanced in the face of the facts. One must gurad against "going to seed" on anything. I still have to get out there and earn a living in the big bad world and support my loved ones. Which is what life is really all about.

Be good and I will try to be aswell



[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by Imago Dei

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

Be good and I will try to be aswell

[edit on 24-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

NEVER! goodness is a sure sign of evil.

keep up the investigation. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Originally posted by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest
reply to post by Imago Dei

 

and to the thread starter, im confused at your definition of atheist. could you clear that up briefly if you dont mind?

[edit on 24-6-2009 by ELECTRICkoolaidZOMBIEtest]

Definition of atheist FOR ME:

1) A person who does not have faith in a religion.
2) A person who does not believe that there is anything "above" him or who dictates his actions.
3) A person who may/may not believe in the supernatural, but definitely believes in the involvement of science in the possibility of paranormality.
4) He, well, relies on science.
5) A person who does not take anything as "absolute truth" or no offense to Image Del, "undisputable". As in discourse, as in science, IT IS ALL disputable. The theory of evolution CAN be disproved IF there was a better theory. The theory of Creation CAN be disproved IF there was a better theory... and there has been.

Hence, I am an atheist, in MY definition, because:

1) I do not have faith in any one religion, but I WILL daresay I am not 100% atheist because I AM open-minded... (Links to Point 5. I am OPEN to other beliefs as long as they make sense.)

2) I do not believe any "higher being" can judge me or assign me to a place I do not want to go, or have power over my well-being. Only I can control my OWN well-being. It is MY body and MY life.

3) Which is the whole point of this thread: Science DOES play a part in any paranormality. Your "feeling" that a God is with you could be either one or both of two things: Your OWN feelings and spirits that give rise to such a "feeling of Love", or your combined beliefs to give rise to a FORM of being that would BEHAVE and ACT as the God you have imagined, but is in reality not THE God, because, well, Creation didn't happen, etc. etc.

4) I, well, rely on science. I love science.

5) If someone comes up with a theory to disprove The Big Bang Theory, yes, I will accept it if there is enough proof. Creation HAS already been disproved, and hence I take it that it did not happened UNLESS there is proof otherwise that it DID. But, above all, science cannot be disproved. Logic cannot be disproved. Theories can. And in this definition, Religion is nothing but a whole lotta Theories.

As such, this Original Post is, in itself, a hypothesis - a theory.

I am theorizing that humans HAVE created God through your own combined consciousnesses.

If you have other definitions of Atheism, please feel free to express them.

I'm DEFINITELY not correct - Definitions and boundaries of a term can vary and they often do.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by KarlG]

Great thread OP I once made a similar one but it did not gather as much attention , so let me just repost the main point of my previous thread.

What if God is in reality a thought form ? Think about it , there are millions of people believing in an entity that they believe is all powerful and all knowing . Those that believe in thought forms know that sometimes even one persons believes and strong dedication towards those believes could create a thought form ... now imagine millions of people believing so hard in a entity that they would sacrifice their lives for it ..

Wouldn't that be enough to create a powerful (maybe not all knowing and all powerful but close ) entity ?

Maybe (jumping into deeper logic here ) thats what all the churches are meant to be for .. Not for the comfort (well also but not the main purpose) of the believers but to attract more and more attention towards God , thus giving more "life energy" (no idea how to describe it) toward that entity ? I wonder if thats one of the Christian secrets

So the more people believe and the more widespread the religion is the more powerful the entity becomes . That would explain the huge determination (crusades and such?) of the religious leaders towards spreading their religion worldwide .

Here's a quick side question to consider:

If God Created Man, who Created God?

Reply to this appropriately if you want, but do not forget the ORIGINAL POST:

My theory would be that Man evolved (a process of time, and not just MADE out of nothing by one entity) and with this evolution came civilization came the accompanying notion of good and evil, and God.

I reversed the Christian belief, in that sense.

Man Created God.

Originally posted by Thill
Great thread OP

I once made a similar one but it did not gather as much attention , so let me just repost the main point of my previous thread.

What if God is in reality a thought form ? Think about it , there are millions of people believing in an entity that they believe is all powerful and all knowing . Those that believe in thought forms know that sometimes even one persons believes and strong dedication towards those believes could create a thought form ... now imagine millions of people believing so hard in a entity that they would sacrifice their lives for it ..

Wouldn't that be enough to create a powerful (maybe not all knowing and all powerful but close ) entity ?

Maybe (jumping into deeper logic here ) thats what all the churches are meant to be for .. Not for the comfort (well also but not the main purpose) of the believers but to attract more and more attention towards God , thus giving more "life energy" (no idea how to describe it) toward that entity ? I wonder if thats one of the Christian secrets

So the more people believe and the more widespread the religion is the more powerful the entity becomes . That would explain the huge determination (crusades and such?) of the religious leaders towards spreading their religion worldwide .

Exactly.

As I've also mentioned in one of the replies, The Strongest Religion Wins.

in other words, it's entirely possible the Pope, the Vatican and religious leaders know the truth behind human consciousness and try to spread the religion (Mormon missions, for e.g.) to increase awareness, belief, and hence - power of the religion.

In which case the Christian God would have powers beyond Buddha, the Goddess of Mercy, Bridget, Shiva, Vishnu, The Horned God, Hecate or any other "higher" deities, ALL of which, make no mistake about it, were created by human minds.

There might have been a Bridget in old Irish lore, and Hecate in old Greeks, just as there might have been a Jesus, all with powers and gifts beyond human understanding, but the notion that they can still interfere with OTHER NORMAL HUMAN LIVES after death ON A MASSIVE SCALE is a pure result of human desire for "guidance".

But with desire, comes will, comes strength, and comes conjuration and "willing" something to life. Which is why the Pope is so eager to spread his religion beyond just the Western world - to third-world countries, even.

The More People Who Believe = More "life energy" = The More Power.

[edit on 24-6-2009 by KarlG]