Humans created God.

Originally posted by Nightchild
I believe that many participaters in this thread misunderstand the OP. He(?) do not say that God is not real, he is saying that God IS real, but created by Man in a "Summoned" way- kind of the way you summon an Entity with the aid of a Quijaboard, if you will.

I do understand what he is noting Nightchild. My opinion, based solely on lore and traditions of Ancients Cultures around the world, as well as my own, all suggest GOD is real, but was here or somewhere long before they (the Ancient Cultures and/or MAN) were.

Now, to ignore these teachings, whether given to us in Tablets, or scribed on Parchment or Verbally expressed and recorded, is to ignore evidence that suggests the OP's opinion maybe misguided itself.

It doesn't mean either of us are turn our backs on our own views, but since it is clear, some thoughts have not been presented to consider from either side, then debate is lost and no one gains from the excerise.

Myself, I have never considered this "Premise" would ever be plausable. It's just to far outside of what I have seen during my studies. But again, healthy debate does nothing but offer understanding of views, and if there is no debate, the Topic is just one big AMEN and passes into the archives of 1's and 0's, so to speak.

But thanks for attempting to clarify the topic incase this was being lost on some.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by chris3340

but according to a famous mathmatition jesus was born in 6 B.C. and he couldnt have be born around christmas time because of the sherperds, they were in there field at night watching the flock. the would have only been in there fields in lambing season, in otherwords mid april.

Well, according to the Temple records from that period, Christ would have been born three months after John, (the Baptist). His father was one of the Priest of the Temple, and according to the Scriptures, rushed to Elizabeth's (Mary's Cousin) side during John' birth. This was in Late June.

After the notice of conception was given to Mary, by the Angel, she rushed to see Elizabeth, who was already carrying John. This was Six Months before John's Birth. That means Mary Concieved in Late Dec, which gives a completely new twist to Christmas, since it truthfully represents the Conception of Christ.

No, The Shepards would be out tending flocks a few times a year. During the Spring as noted and also during the Gathering of the flocks for the Fall.

Paul also has a hint of this when noting he (Christ) will return as he arrived. During the Last Trumpet. This could also be confirming the Festival period for the Jews of that time, which takes place during late September to early October.

Which brings us to the Romans, who where doing what? Taking a Census of the Population. Would you do this during some "Normal Day" or would you choose a date when the Population would gather in their respective hometowns for the Holy Festivals, making the matter of getting everyone accounted for quite easy?

With that being said, Christ would have been born in Late September / Early October since conception is a 9 month program, and we can verify when John the Baptist was born due to records. The balance is common sense and the "Nature" of such matters. Damm the Mathematicians

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by heyo
reply to post by KarlG

 

Hey well that's good for you. Asa christian, i'm not one who says "I blame God" or whatever. I blame myself for anything wrong, and give myself credit for the right things that go on in my life.
However, the circumstances of such good and bad things, when I step back and take a look, make it hard for me to think there isn't some force out there that give one's life a little gas once in awhile.

example: (this stuff happens a lot)

over the course of the last year, I've had 7 dollars an hour taken off my wages, while prices for food and rent have risen or stayed the same. I'm an apprentice carpenter, and I work hard, but I've watched this lowered hourly wage (it's hit everyone the same) combined with 20%ish less hours available turn into me into being financially strapped. I would take advances on the 15th of the month check to pay for food and rent, then live off the middle of the month check on which i have no bills. All well and good, and i was catching up nicely, until the boss started charging 30% on all advances. I take a couple hundred bucks and gotta pay back like 280. no way, unsustainable.
I was forced to break my lease and move in with my dad in another small town (I don't take social handouts. period.never been on ui or anything like it).
The second day i looked for a job. after looking all day in town and in the surrounding towns I came home dejected. Went out for a smoke. Heard a skihl saw. Walked around a bend and there was a foundation they were starting. boom, job. There are almost no houses going up in this small city, and there's one fulltime framing crew of three people and i just so happened to luck out and be on it.

I'm not out to prove religion with that example, but to show how circumstances can shange on a dime with no control over them. I seem to have a lot more good luck than bad, if you want to put it that way. And the good luck seems to correspond when i'm, if you will, "feel spiritual".

Anyways, just some food for thought. I believe and respect everyone's decisions in their own lives, just as i'm sure you do.

heyo:

I respect you, man.

You are tenacious, you don't give up, you are smart enough to know when to quit, you are strong and you are courageous.

Indeed, we all feel like there are times things "happen" when we feel "spiritual", when we feel "connected". But for me, I don't believe in a higher power "helping" people. I mean, even if God HAS a lot of spare time, he wouldn't go to any one person to help him. He would rather help victims of floods, earthquakes, volcanoes. So, two explanations for this:

1) Maybe - there is a God, and he manifests in a collective belief.

For the sake of an easy hypothesis, let's say you go back home to your small town, and your family is OVERJOYED. Thrilled. Your Congregation, who hasn't seen you in eons, is happy to again.

You pray, you go to Church, and you worship TOGETHER.

Have you ever had instances in "holy places" where you have felt magical and strong?

That is, IMO, not the power of a God. That is the power of all of the tens of people in one Church praying together, heads bent, keeping a sole idea/being in mind and thus, giving forth to a sort of energy, a sort of "buzz" that you can feel.

You, and your family, and your Church, have, in a way, given such belief to a God, or an entity along those lines, that He was borne in your own consciousnesses. As your family prayed for you, or as you prayed together, you invoked such an entity to be with you.

This one God exists to help you, and guide you, but it also explains why he would do that and not, for, say, your boss, or a random homeless man on the street, or for the people of Iran or Tibet who admittedly need it more than you - because they don't share your Christian beliefs.

Which fits into, also, pleasingly, a "conventionally-Christian" POV.

"God will only help you if you keep him in your minds."

Which makes sense, kinda, because if this God is borne out of the collective trust and worship placed in Him through eons, it would make sense that only a member of this "collective" - read: Christians - could pull a manifestation of His powers from wherever He resides - the alternate plane and the like - if you believe hard and strong enough.

Which also means, that people in Iran and Tibet might not get him, because - well, they don't believe in the same God as you do. In which case I AM saying, The Stronger God wins.

The religion with the most number of followers and worshippers will get a stronger manifestation of what they believe in, well, because there's more power to go into the invoking of such an entity.

How about victims of Katrina? Victims of the California wildfires?

I will not go so far as to say "God gave them the disaster to teach them a lesson / for a reason" because that is what I have heard some people say and I am OUTRAGED over those sort of comments.

I, and ONLY I, would think that they just didn't have the strength to call upon Him, or maybe they just didn't. Yes, maybe they didn't go to Church the day before and maybe they were alone, and faced with a burning fire or raging waters, they just didn't think of God, and even if they did, they wouldn't have enough power to bring Him into our plane .

No "reason" as to why the disasters occurred - they just did. But whether or not help can be rendered is a different story. What I am, essentially, saying, is that YOU control God, and not vice versa. YOU pull God out to help you, but this God does NOT have the CHOICE of whom to help: "Let me help heyo, and not help the singer whose mother and sister were shot."

And that is because - you created him. The collective Christians in the world, throughout the ages, in ALL the societies in SE Asia and Australia too... gave such an entity strength, be it just ONE God, or MANY Gods for different households, small towns and geographical locations.

[TO BE CONTINUED]

OR...

2) I think this is what happened to you.

Since you WERE alone at the time, and for the sake of easy hypothesis, your family/Church WASN'T praying for you (if they were, go to Point 1.).

What happened - is a combination of good luck, intuition and innate timing.

You heard the ski saw or whatever instrument of shop you were hearing.

That's the luck right there.

But if you didn't go forth to explore it - it would have been lost. The opportunity would have been wasted. Unless you're saying a man came up to you and told you about what was happening around the corner (in which case that IS indeed Scenario No. 1) then you going to explore the possibility around the corner is your own intuition.

The innate timing joins the two together - of you being at the right place at the right time, and TAKING up that chance to go see what's going on.

It's also the reasons for Steve Jobs and Warren Buffett's successes. Steve Jobs was just in the right place at the right time when he was introduced to Steve Wozniak, and together they came up with the idea for Apple computers. It is also the reason for Warren Buffett's success - that his investments, luckily, did not crash, and he had the skill and intuition to pick the best firms to invest in.

Granted, they had business acumen involved too, but how much can you say goes to a "divine power"? We know Warren Buffett is a devoted Christian, but a success dragged out this long? According to my theory, they would have had to pray for ages and with ALL THEIR HEART for that kind of otherworldly support. God would not have had time for anything else. Steve Jobs is not a Christian, so there.

For those who are not Christians, by the way, they have their other beliefs too. Pagans depends on their spells, which is a fundamental of my theory, really, that a "belief in oneself" and "oneself's ability" can create things and bring to life occurrences that would otherwise never have been seen. The Pagan belief is one that relies solely on a person's mind to invoke and call upon spirits around him/her.

Buddhists would then rely on, well, Buddha. And good karma, which admittedly is very common-sensical. Wiccan rede states, "An it harm none, do what ye will". Buddhist takes upon that in a longer scriptural way, and so does Christianity, too, and it's a VERY good idea not to harm anybody, because of the legal repercussions, and also because of the hate directed back at you, and revenge, and what other people might eventually do BECAUSE of you.

I am NOT saying God doesn't exist.

I am NOT saying Jesus doesn't exist. He might have.

But I'm saying YOU have control over what God does in YOUR life, and also, that Creation is really far-out, but most importantly, the powers of any great beings in your religion is dictated by what YOU believe in.

If you believe He can cure you of cancer, you will find it going into remission - and that is OF YOUR OWN DOING, rather than God's. It's the very basis of placebos - "meds" that really don't work but cures the patient's illness anyway: when the patient believes the "med" to have some curing ability, his body reacts to that belief and somehow, the illness goes away, forever, if not for a little while.

Some people might find it tough to accept that THEY can actually do it, so they might give all of their kudos to God, but others might be empowered by it, to live life a little and to REALLY take the reins of their own lives.

They would stop attributing successes and failures to divine powers, because that's bad psychology, and start taking responsibility for their own actions. It's typical human behavior, really, to attribute things they cannot explain or which seem coincidental to a "higher power" instead of searching for another reason.

It's because the higher power can never be explained. It's either there, or it's not. And what easier way to assign blame or give kudos than to something that cannot be proved, and cannot be explained, so the onus falls off the REAL, living human?

I would take the TOUGHER way out, and say I CAN find a reason for why these things are happening, and it's because of YOU, Homo Sapien, the ONLY animals in the animal kingdom with sentience, and free will, and belief, and choice, and mental strength. Animals only know "Survive' or "Be Killed", or "Comfort" or "Discomfort". Humans can commit suicide. Humans can think up a God. Why didn't dogs and tigers and elephants create their own deities? They've been around longer than us.

heyo

Did you pray in one big mass before that incident occurred? Like, well, in a crude sense, and totally analogical, a seance? Maybe that's the reason for your "help". Otherwise, it's all your own doing.

Anything "miraculous" is really either Theory 1. or Theory 2. I trust in the power of Man's will, and strength, and it's the primary reasons why civilization has come as far as it has - and is also the primary reason why it's now on a downhill slope.


[edit on 21-6-2009 by KarlG]

reply to post by Shane


DUDE

I am NOT saying Jesus Christ doesn't exist.

He might have been historically factual, and did everything you said.

YOU have been doing all the studies, not me. I'm taking your word for it.

But what i'm saying is that all the "heavenly powers" and all the "divine intervention" you think He or Christ is giving you from above - that's all YOUR doing. And it probably occurs on a separate astral plane altogether, where "heaven" might really exist because of everyone's belief in it.

reply to post by KarlG


Well I am more confused now than before.

In respects to Christ, I was just responding to some Mathematican theory Chris offered. I wasn't asking you about it. Just pointing out the Math was wrong so Chris can speak to the Math Man.

But you had closed a response to Watchtheashes and brought The Antichrist up with the premise he was set to destroy everything, just due to the Hive Mindset you believe the fundementals of the three Faiths are built upon.

I think this is what you are suggesting, and asked for clarification.

Have a Good Night

Ciao

Shane

Another god does not exist thread.
Logic and science alone provides some evidence that there is something more than nothing. What about other things that are not phisical but can exist and can make sence, like our thoughts. Making pictures in my head that I can see and make sense of them, yet I do not see them with my own eyes. Just like a dream, some dreams I can see things clear just as I would see with my eyes open. How can the brain generate such a perfect picture without my eyes open and how can the power of thought make out logical things if they do not exist.

I may ask this, do thoughts exist and how can we explain them as in seeing them since we do not phisicaly have a visual on them.
Everything should be generated without any image at all just like a computer will proccess numbers but since awarnes is in existance we will see things in our head.

If I close my eyes and I think of a known person
I can see that person. I can close my eyes and I can see things as I would have my eyes open, it's as simple as that. Thoughts and dreams are not out of the phisical world, but we do make sense out of them.
How can the brain see images without my two eyes if my brain is supose to be just a computer.


For me it's enought at least to try to accept that there might be something more than nothing. Deep inside of me there is something that makes me work as to who I am, me.Something that makes me more than an evolved animal. Evolution only apllies to things that exist, since thoughts and dreams do not exist they can not evolve because they are not phisical but they do exist for every idividual.

How can someone argue on things that are not toucheble.

Originally posted by Shane
reply to post by KarlG

 

Well I am more confused now than before.

In respects to Christ, I was just responding to some Mathematican theory Chris offered. I wasn't asking you about it. Just pointing out the Math was wrong so Chris can speak to the Math Man.

But you had closed a response to Watchtheashes and brought The Antichrist up with the premise he was set to destroy everything, just due to the Hive Mindset you believe the fundementals of the three Faiths are built upon.

I think this is what you are suggesting, and asked for clarification.

Have a Good Night

Ciao

Shane

I'm more confused about your replies than you are to mine.

(LOTSA CONFUSION FLOATING AROUND)

What's all this Mathematician thing? I REALLY do not understand what you've been saying... I just brought up the Antichrist as a side example that if you put too much belief in him/it/her you give him/it/her strength, because humans are the ones with the powers to visualize and create realities.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Another god does not exist thread.

From the beginning, you misunderstand my Original Post.

Go back and read...

Nightchild has made it clear already - I am NOT saying God doesn't exist. In fact what I'm saying is EXACTLY what you're saying: closing your eyes and visualizing God and making Him exist!

Before I start, let me say that I'm not trying to flame/bash/any of that; I'm merely expressing an opinion/collection of thoughts.

Now, I just want to ask, not to be rude, but why do people have to absolutely deny the existence of a God? Or the fact that a God created us? To be quite honest, man isn't really the one who should be questioning that, I mean it's your eternity, spend it how you will, but all you need to do is give it a shot. I used to be a Satanist/Witchcraft user/whatever you may call it, but I always have had an open mind. Now, my entire family is Christian, and I just started thinking, why not just say a simple prayer, sincerely mean it, and see what happens?
Well, that was without a doubt THE best choice I have ever made. I instantly felt a feeling if peace and belonging and happiness that I can only explain as physical bliss.
Anyways, on to my point, why do you use facts/reasoning to DIS-prove god? I used to be the same way, and I'll tell you why, because in this physical world, it makes sense. Spiritually, however, you are blind! Yes, blind. You are deceived into believing every thing you observe; what you fail to observe is that you aren't spiritually observing God, only physically. Spiritually, he is LOVE. He is the creator of us, without a doubt.

Look around, say a prayer, try to talk to God. He will respond.. maybe not immediately, but he will.

Hell is very real. Read up on some of the near-death experiences(NDE's) people have had. Hell is different for people, but one thing is for sure; it is an infinity/eternity in a void where no things good exist. For example, one of my good friends had an NDE when he was pretty young(6-7). He was surrounded, pierced, CONSUMED by complete and utter darkness. He was cold; cold beyond anything he could imagine. He just felt impossibly worse every second, and wanted to cry, but he couldn't because he had no tears. Unfortunately, he came out of it before he could receive the blessing of the God/Jesus. As for him, and many others, they will go into hell thinking there is no God, life sucks, etc.. all they have to do is ask God/Jesus for help, and he takes them to the light. It's very simple.

Sorry for writing such a long post, I'm just trying to express an opinion.. you don't have to believe me, or even care what I have to say, and I'm not really sure if it makes complete sense but it's just a collection of my thoughts. Feel free to tell me what you think

It's great to see an athiest start a thread topic, rather that covertly getting stuck into those with a faith good on you.

There is only one flaw in your "logic" and that is that the bible has been irrefuteably proven to have been written by a superior supernatural divine mind. Albeit with the use of human scribes taking divine dictation.

Sorry mate, atheism is redundant as a viable option for an informed thinking human being. Not to mention the fact that God has created us with a desire in built to know and discover who he is, which is why it is written, "a fool says in his heart there is no God" Dont worry God still loves you. While there is breath there is hope. No offense dude it's not me who is calling you a fool you understand.

God bless you.

PS. The power to visualise and create is a God given gift that few believers actually take full advantage off.

PPS: You cant state that you are an atheist and say that you are not saying that God doesnt exist, else that would make you agnostic. You can't have your cake and eat it. Most athiests seem to have that trouble including Richard Dawkins and it doesn't go unnoticed. But your not one of the vehement hatefilled types. I've butted heads with a few of them an it's not nice.



[edit on 22-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

I do believe you have things backwards.

God = pure consciousness. Consciousness is eternal and so forth. Consciousness creates logic. It is the part of god within that gives you these things, and makes you an "observer". Simply more than machine.

Creation = logic. A program. Action and reaction. In the beginning, there was only the "word". And from this word comes creation. Well any programmer knows that this is also the same thing in every program. As a programmer, I write down words that are set in such a way to create logic. And from that word and logic comes the "program" itself. All programs are built on words. These "words" end up just moving switches in patterns etc, binary 1's and 0's or duality. Consciousness is that which creates logic. We can write programs that work off logic to do many smart things, but the programs lack consciousness and can't create their own logic. But they will follow the logic given as reliable as a rocket.

If you are unable to seperate these 2, then you will never understand. Science = best to understand creation and logic. It's action and reaction, repeatable in a lab. There is no logic that can begin to describe consciousness. Can't program something to actually "feel" something. You can program it to react, but to actually "feel" and to actually "observe" is beyond the scope of logic.

So, after creation, the "spirit of god fills creation" and this makes it come to life. Because without an observer, it's useless and isn't "alive". Write a program and without an observer it's just running patterns over and over.

John 3

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

So it's good you recognize the consciousness and importance of it. But you have things backwards. You need to understand the father(god) and son(you) relationship. The big picture vs the individual picture. Which you somewhat attempt in your post.

These 2 posts give a more in depth understanding of these things in a quantum physics kind of way.

Link 1

Link 2

Ok, so the father(god) is that which knows all, and is in the end the 1 and only observer. There is really only 1 of us. He knows all, and so there is no time, no change and so forth because nothing is new.

You are in the son perspective. You have a limited perception and knowledge. This is needed in order to have the experience of life. If you knew all, then you could not have the experience, because nothing new would happen. As in the 2 threads, it's the difference between looking at a movie film stretched out(no time) and watching the movie(has time).

So, the father is much greater than any of us. As the father sees and knows all, and is within all of us. So, to take a single perspective from that, and it's just not even comparable.

John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

So all is connected spiritually etc. We are all "in the father". A soul is an individual consciousness within a greater "sea" of consciousness.

We are all god, in a limited perspective in order to have this experience, where as the father is that in full perspective of all.

All that is of the father eventually returns to the father. When the soul dies, it means you lose your individuality of consciousness. When you sell your soul, it means you have sold your choice and become a puppet for your own comfort. And the entire "war on god" is a war on consciousness and trying to turn people into tools of action and reaction, which equals control. Just as we can control a rocket because it follows the laws of action and reaction.

When it says "you are hated because you are not of this world" this is what it means. You are hated because you are not action and reaction like the physical and universe is, and thus can't be controlled. If a rocket had choice, who knows where it would end up. But it doesn't so it becomes a tool under the control of those with "power". So, the "game" is to try and turn you into something that can be controlled in the same manner. Introduce certain actions and get the reactions you want. Make people fear for their lives, and they will react and give away freedoms for security. Of course, if people knew what they really were(consciousness/soul) they wouldn't fear.

People blame religion and such and call it "ignorant" and that people just made it up. But that isn't the truth. The truth is that anyone who didn't go along with the specific translations and understandings given to them was killed. This is prophecy. "Christians" don't realize it because they only look at other religions. Thus any real understanding was lost over time. Anyone who told people the truth was killed, and the idolized version was pushed.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you believe or do not believe what the church says. Either way you will be allowing them to define the topic for you, and that's all that is really wanted.

reply to post by KarlG


I am inclined to agree with you. But I believe In Jesus, who taught us how to live.

Why is it that we are not living according to Jesus? To love each other, to forgive each other, and to not wage war?

reply to post by KarlG


Hi Karl, you caught me with your title. I disagree with your theory on the "creation of God". The psychological add-ons are relatively recent and I don't consider that a group "wishing it so" will bring on an end times event. These things have been wished for thousands of years and have not yet come about. Remember the Y2K scare? Here's a website that touches on this topic:

A Brief History of the Apocalypse

That site describes many groups that have connected hands believed and devoted themselves without receiving their wish. Undoubtedly a disaster will destroy our spaceship and if humans are still alive when it does, some will consider that this was a predicted end and others will consider that s*** happens.

I think we created God but the extended belief systems were added much later and a cultural/political thing entirely unrelated to the God creation. I consider it happened along these lines. An early human sees a boulder roll down a hillside after an earthquake. Having thrown or rolled a stone them self, he/she extrapolates that a much larger entity did the same with the boulder. He/she further extrapolates that the shaking of the ground was also caused by the unseen large being. When the human runs up the hillside to catch a glimpse of this larger being it is gone. And so a larger than life, unseen being/human of immense power is imagined to have caused an otherwise unexplainable occurrence.

And so in something resembling what I've described, man makes God in his image. A "Superman" if you will. And so this Superman or God fills in during science's infancy. And we've all seen that as science develops God is replaced. I submit Galileo Galilei. Galileo was thwarted by the cultural/political structure of his time not by group think/wish.

"If wishes and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a Merry Christmas!"

Originally posted by Imago Dei

There is only one flaw in your "logic" and that is that the bible has been irrefuteably proven to have been written by a superior supernatural divine mind. Albeit with the use of human scribes taking divine dictation.

Irrefutably? By whom? When did the "good news" hit the stands? The 10th Commandment describes how Jews are to treat their slaves. That's truly divine. What did Moses have, hearing loss? These are the people delivered from Pharaoh? So that they could "do unto others"? Or as Hillel the Elder might have said: "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." Sound a bit familiar? A little plagiarism in God's ghost writing perhaps? Maybe a scribe misheard the name Hillel and it sounded like "Jesus"?

Your unsubstantiated statements are what is flawed.

reply to post by ParavengeR


I sincerely do not believe that.

I believe we make our own afterlife.

What we think about NOW is what we get afterward.

This is what I mean about psychologically giving your thoughts weight: If you think you're going to go to hell, if you feel cold before you die, your consciousness WILL go to a cold place and you WILL go to "hell".

If you are surrounded by loved ones, and you feel you've done all you can in life, and you're ready to go to your next adventure: BAM! You're in hell? Absolutely makes no sense except to...

Christians, who believe that Believing in God and His Love is all that will get you to Heaven.

Here's my next point.

What's there to fear?

Why should I fear hell? just because it's cold? Just because I'll get punished for... not being Christian? So hell is filled with Christians who didn't think of God and of Buddhists, and Muslims, and Hindis and Pagans?

I say, that's REALLY shallow and if you look at it from where I'm seeing it now... it's very "shepherd-like" (no pun intended).

I'm going to live my life now the way I want it to be lived. I'm going to "sin", I'm going to accept my gay friends, I'm going to pursue my dreams on my own merit and luck and skill, and I'm going to be loved by people I KNOW and SEE can love me. And I'm going to love myself, too. I'm going to be strong.

And so what if I'm going to hell for not believing in God?

The life on Earth would be great, and whatever comes next is just par for the course.

See, that's the problem, right there, and it's also one my theory finds fault with, if not for the fact that all the people who ever read my threads (plural) are steadfast Christians (good for you) who don't consider alternatives.

Hell CANNOT possibly contain Pagans, Hindis, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists because that is paradoxically wrong. Jesus, and God, too, I believe, believes in, as Spellbound has said, loving, forgiving and not to wage war.

The fact that those who are NOT Christians go to hell is already not "loving" and "forgiving". If your God was absolute, so many non-believers would descend to hell straight without even going to the Pearly Gates because of your stand that only Christians who love God and keep Him in mind will go to His Heaven.

So since this is paradoxically impossible, what i HAVE proposed here (and which has apparently been construed as some atheist disproving thing, WHICH IT IS NOT) is that everyone has their own set of "God(s)" and "afterlife notions" and "beliefs", which you can call upon for "miracles", and which you call upon for your procession to either Heaven or Hell.

Sometimes Hindis get miracles too. Ever see men who walk on nails? Across fire? They attribute all to MIND over matter. And I really do think the power of the mind is endless. It is LIMITLESS. Mothers, who in trying to save their children, can stop oncoming cars with their bare hands. They break every bone in their arms, but it is their love for their children that switches on this strength.

Miracles.

The Hell or Heaven Christians see, the cold tunnel, the beautifully white heaven - you ALL see the same thing because you have been taught the same thing, and you visualize it, and your combined strength and desire to go there has Created a place of Love: Love which YOU have imbued it with. Likewise, you see Hell as a cold, dark place and thus, when Christians have NDEs or they get a glimpse of "hell", it is the place which ALL OF YOU have Created as cold and unforgiving.

How does one "get" Hell? A man who has committed crimes, murders, caused hurt and pain - before he dies, he would fear, fear HELL so greatly, and KNOW, that hell is looming, that it's all he can think about. Naturally, he pulls up "Hell" as his afterlife (of course, assuming he's Christian and Hell-believing). If you think about Hell right before you die, if you fear Hell for not being a Christian, you go straight there.

If you don't, you go to wherever you are thinking of right when you die, as per your beliefs.

Buddhists see Wheels of fire: symbols of reincarnation. They see Yan Luo Wang, the God of Death, which collects the "evil" souls. Hindis see suns and multiple Gods watching over the world. Which are all true in their culture. Which, if you ask, other NDEs around the world, in Aboriginal and Chinese cultures, vary in description.

You have the notion that your Christian God is ABSOLUTE, i.e. there is only ONE.

What I am saying is that your GOD DOES EXIST, but he EXISTS in CONJUNCTION with other Gods and Goddesses in the world - Bridget in Irish culture, Goddess of Mercy in Chinese culture, Shiva in Indian culture - and they are called upon to give you what YOU want because YOU have Created each and every one of them.

The Chinese have the 7th-month festival, where the gates of hell actually OPEN and all the spirits from "down under" get to resurface. To protect themselves from ghosts, the Chinese calls upon the Monkey God, who deals with petty spirits.

To protect yourself from ghosts and demons, you invoke the power of the cross and God's Love. Priests use that power to exorcise demons that actually DO EXIST, as volatile, malevolent energy.

Both cultures use invocations, and according to the many accounts through time, both seem to work. They seem to work because you have either 1) "opened" up some gift of yours to chase away the spirits, just like super-moms unlock super strength in moments of crises, or 2) You call upon the power of the REAL GOD(S) out of the astral plane or wherever they reside after they've been Created to help you.

I am not going to attack logic because this is not a petty post. I'm going to say that the ORIGINAL POINT OF MY TOPIC WAS LOST.

I AM saying your God exists, but YOU have control over what He does, and not the other way around.

To assume God controls us like a program, giving us "input" and "instructions" and breathes life into us is, to say the least, degrading to YOURSELF.

It's like I said before: People who attribute everything they do to God. "I'm doing charity for God's Love." "I got fired because I didn't believe enough in God". Not only is it degrading but it's not right, unfortunately. You're doing charity because It's GOOD, because you FEEL good. You got fired because of the recession. Because you weren't good enough.

Originally posted by ParavengeR
As for him, and many others, they will go into hell thinking there is no God, life sucks, etc.. all they have to do is ask God/Jesus for help, and he takes them to the light. It's very simple.

Proof... somewhat.

At least it's an agreeable point.

If a person dies thinking LIFE SUCKS, EFF THIS LIFE, I REGRET this AND that AND this, too, and I WISH I WAS NICER TO OTHERS - it's all bad energy.

It's not BECAUSE he doesn't believe in God, it's BECAUSE he is THINKING IN THAT WAY.

What I am saying is:

Even if YOU DO believe in God, and have been devout all your life, at the moment of death, if you suddenly doubt that there is One and realize you've made your life a load of crap, BAM! Hell! Because you have lost the thing that gives you Love (I ASSUME it's God that gives Christians Love, right?) and you have lost the visual of your desired afterlife.

Which I guess, fits in nicely with your Christian beliefs. "Think of God's Love right before you die". It's a more "shepherd-ish" (no pun intended, again) and religious way of rephrasing "Think Positive Thoughts and You Will Go To A Positive Place" which glorifies ONE MAN as an entity to focus your positive energy on. This positive energy thus gives rise to the presence of a REAL GOD, which might help you along in your daily life when you pray "and feel a sense of Love".

It's ALL IN YOU. It's ALL YOU.

It is also precisely the reason why God cannot have existed 65 million years ago.

Animals are not sentient, they do not have the notion of "good" or "bad" or "Heaven" or "hell". Hence, they have no notion of "God" or lack of "God". If there wasn't a notion of God then, how could God have existed?

It's really frustrating that you cannot see GOD and MAN are interconnected. If the next day a giant meteorite slammed into Earth a la Armageddon, and wiped out ALL MAN, God would be gone with us too.

And that is one thing you cannot deny. OK, sure, use your Biblical studies to try to deny this point, but the entire notion of "afterlife", "God" and "supernatural" would vanish along with the consciousness of Man and Man itself. With the disappearance of Man's consciousness, so would the meaning of coincidences and the birth of the sun and feeling guilty over glorious, pleasing, earthwrenching sex disappear as well.

Quick sidetrack: Whoever said pleasure was bad? Pleasure is good. Why? Because it makes you feel good. It induces hormonal release. It release endorphins. It's exercising for 3 hours, it's sex, it's getting riled up at a concert. It is people who get GUILTY of feeling so good (read: Guilt is a human feeling, and doesn't exist in animals) that they attribute "pleasure" as "sin" and hence say that, if you sin, or if you feel pleasure, you, again, go to Hell.

I beg to differ. According to my theory, if a person dies of a heart attack while having unbelievable sex, he goes to heaven. Because he already felt as though he WAS in heaven.

Basically, to summarize:

If God created Man then who created Him?

Wow. Am I long-winded or what?

Again:

If God created Man then who created Him?

My concern is not whether God exists or not (I say YES he does) but my concern is which dictates which. I have seen far too many God-fearing Christians who attribute EVERYTHING they do to God, and it makes me wonder if they have any of their OWN FREE WILL AND THOUGHT.

This post was originally to introduce a theory that God is created by MAN'S PSYCHOLOGY, i.e. He exists, all right, but YOU dictate what He does in your life and WHERE YOU GO AFTER. So start getting that control back.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by KarlG]

Originally posted by Imago Dei
God bless you.

PS. The power to visualise and create is a God given gift that few believers actually take full advantage off.

PPS: You cant state that you are an atheist and say that you are not saying that God doesnt exist, else that would make you agnostic. You can't have your cake and eat it. Most athiests seem to have that trouble including Richard Dawkins and it doesn't go unnoticed. But your not one of the vehement hatefilled types. I've butted heads with a few of them an it's not nice.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Ah okay.

I'm an agnostic... but I thought agnostics believe in a god and SUBMITS to that belief?

Mine is reversed... I believe in a god but I don't believe that this god is necessarily above me... as in the power of human mind triumphs over all.

What kind of belief is that??

Hence, I call myself atheist. Saves time and trouble explaining, since I don't believe in the SUBMISSION to a god, and atheists don't submit to God(s) either.

P.S. Thanks. I really appreciate that you recognize I'm not a "hater". Not to seem hypocritical, but I hate hate.

I just have a theory, and while everyone is lambasting me on it I'm really hoping someone would come along and support my ideas or at least REALLY understand where I'm coming from.


[edit on 22-6-2009 by KarlG]

Originally posted by KarlG

Originally posted by Imago Dei
God bless you.

PS. The power to visualise and create is a God given gift that few believers actually take full advantage off.

PPS: You cant state that you are an atheist and say that you are not saying that God doesnt exist, else that would make you agnostic. You can't have your cake and eat it. Most athiests seem to have that trouble including Richard Dawkins and it doesn't go unnoticed. But your not one of the vehement hatefilled types. I've butted heads with a few of them an it's not nice.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Ah okay.

I'm an agnostic... but I thought agnostics believe in a god and SUBMITS to that belief?

Mine is reversed... I believe in a god but I don't believe that this god is necessarily above me... as in the power of human mind triumphs over all.

What kind of belief is that??

Hence, I call myself atheist. Saves time and trouble explaining, since I don't believe in the SUBMISSION to a god, and atheists don't submit to God(s) either.

P.S. Thanks. I really appreciate that you recognize I'm not a "hater". Not to seem hypocritical, but I hate hate.

I just have a theory, and while everyone is lambasting me on it I'm really hoping someone would come along and support my ideas or at least REALLY understand where I'm coming from.


[edit on 22-6-2009 by KarlG]

You'll find a lot of support among the new age types and possibly even the luciferians. Although most of them go one step futher than not submitting to God, they openly worship the enemy of God and claim that they are gods. No your not athiest at all, agnostics havent made up their minds yet and dont realy care, they most probably wouldn't find any interest in anything regarding religion as a topic at all. From a biblical perspective you are what God would call lost, pagan or heathen. No Offense intended.

Dude, God has proven that he is real through creation and through his holy bible and people dont even support him, so your not alone...

You might enjoy the David Icke Forums, but be carfeul there are a lot of overt and covert satan worshippers, witches and warlocks in there who baspheme God outright, they barely tolerate anything Christian and post all sorts of disinformation about the bible, Jesus, God etc etc, most of them believe everything is an illusion. If you are lost now, you may very well disapear for ever and ever amen in there. As I said if you check it out, keep your head screwed on.


In closing, how do we know God needed anything to create Him?

Evolutionists beleive everything was created out of nothing with no beginning and no end. Thats God, no begining and no end. Time is just an earthly dimension which we live within. We live in four dimensions, scientists theorize that God travels in at least 12 dimensions we have four. Height width length and time. Time doesn't exist outside of the earthly realm, which means one can easily grasp that God is and always was. Eternity is Eternity, infinity is infinity, our minds can grasp the concept just enough to put words to it, but understanding it is another story, I dare say we can't.

You may enjoy a book called "Beyond The Cosmos" by Hugh Ross, it covers this dimension stuff and a lot more and it's good fun to read. Not to mention read the bible of course, start with the Gospel of John, then Mathew Mark Luke and John again. Also proverbs and Psalms.

All the best mate.



[edit on 23-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Originally posted by Imago Dei

Originally posted by KarlG

Originally posted by Imago Dei
God bless you.

PS. The power to visualise and create is a God given gift that few believers actually take full advantage off.

PPS: You cant state that you are an atheist and say that you are not saying that God doesnt exist, else that would make you agnostic. You can't have your cake and eat it. Most athiests seem to have that trouble including Richard Dawkins and it doesn't go unnoticed. But your not one of the vehement hatefilled types. I've butted heads with a few of them an it's not nice.

[edit on 22-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

Ah okay.

I'm an agnostic... but I thought agnostics believe in a god and SUBMITS to that belief?

Mine is reversed... I believe in a god but I don't believe that this god is necessarily above me... as in the power of human mind triumphs over all.

What kind of belief is that??

Hence, I call myself atheist. Saves time and trouble explaining, since I don't believe in the SUBMISSION to a god, and atheists don't submit to God(s) either.

P.S. Thanks. I really appreciate that you recognize I'm not a "hater". Not to seem hypocritical, but I hate hate.

I just have a theory, and while everyone is lambasting me on it I'm really hoping someone would come along and support my ideas or at least REALLY understand where I'm coming from.


[edit on 22-6-2009 by KarlG]

You'll find a lot of support among the new age types and possibly even the luciferians. Although most of them go one step futher than not submitting to God, they openly worship the enemy of God and claim that they are gods. No your not athiest at all, agnostics havent made up their minds yet and dont realy care, they most probably wouldn't find any interest in anything regarding religion as a topic at all. From a biblical perspective you are what God would call lost, pagan or heathen. No Offense intended.

Dude, God has proven that he is real through creation and through his holy bible and people dont even support him, so your not alone...

You might enjoy the David Icke Forums, but be carfeul there are a lot of overt and covert satan worshippers, witches and warlocks in there who baspheme God outright, they barely tolerate anything Christian and post all sorts of disinformation about the bible, Jesus, God etc etc, most of them believe everything is an illusion. If you are lost now, you may very well disapear for ever and ever amen in there. As I said if you check it out, keep your head screwed on.



[edit on 23-6-2009 by Imago Dei]

How has God proven he's real?

Creation isn't proved AT ALL!

God does NOT have power over me. Neither does Satan or whatever you believe in that's the opposite of God. They ALL have NO power over me.

And why would God call me a Pagan?

Pagan = a religion dealing with witchcraft and forces of nature, and is mostly associated with good as its practitioners work with white magic.

God would not call me anything. I CALL God. Not the other way around.