Are the soldiers who protect America bad?

reply to post by mf_luder


Clearly he's talking from a position of ignorance. It's easy to get a video on you tube and say"I can do that", than it is to enlist and go over there and prove you can.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint


Could you please point to one instance of a foreign attack on US soil that the US successfully repelled?

I am not one to say that there is zero need for a military, but the military as it exists in the US today is too big and costly. A downsized military would be more than adequate to repel any conceiveable attack on US soil.

I cannot. The reason is that because of our military, nobody has been stupid enough to try. Our lintel is good enough to know before they get here. And you seem to keep being confused by the difference between a soldier and the PTB. The PTB are the ones who decide where to go and how long to stay. the solders job is to follow orders. make no mistake, he is there because he believes in this country and would take a bullet for his friend, or even for you while you play PS3. He puts his life on the line without any thought for himself, only his country. Make sure you are beating the right dog.

I know it is kind of off topic, but it is spelled Amerika.
At least in most languages

Oh yeah MORE PTSD* TREATMENT FOR VETERANS!!
An overlooked, underhelped horrible effect!
*spelled it wrong haha

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Ridhya]

So, I was speaking to the knife weilding maniac that had just stabbed 5 innocents in a blood frenzy . Why'd you do it ? , I Said . He said the knife is to protect himself ," if i did not carry this knife , who is to say who would would attack me . It is a defence , by it's nature it is an object to deter assailants ' . But these people have never assailed you I said ? . ' No, but it could happen that in some certain situations, it could come to pass that this here knife is my protection could well save my life ' . So , how do you equate stabbing 5 innocents with your protection, I replied ? Well he said , I had the notion these people might have wanted to knife me too , but after I killed them , there was no knife on their bodies afterall , but it is for my protection , you see ? Oh , and they had a full wallet on them too , and I needed to pay my bills .


[edit on 21-6-2009 by Drexl]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Your points are not that great, you could say the same thing for anyone working in Banks ( im going to criticize you for making the super rich richer and funding and making profits out of wars !!) or someone working in fast food ( you contributed to killing 280000 Americans last year you pig!!) you need to understand that people need to feed there families, pay there rent and so on. they may have a sense to serve there country that's great that they are sacrificing a lifestyle they could of had for a military one.

i bet whatever your job is it probably contributes to some problems too, but you didnt avoid getting the job because of it.

I'm a Marine infantryman currently on a tour in Iraq, and whenever I get on a computer I usually check out ATS and read threads for entertainment and of course conspiracy theories have always caught my interest... but some of the replies on this are just completely disgusting...

I can see why people strongly disagree with the war in Iraq, I personally do not agree with the invasion of the country and all the shady events leading up to it. I do my job though(which doesn't involve murdering innocent people by the way), and i do my part when working alongside Iraqi Security Forces or helping Iraqi citizens to represent the American people in a professional, compassionate way... and that goes hand in hand with dealing with threats to the security of the Iraqi people in a professional manner as well. Like the saying goes, "No better friend, no worse enemy." And I do feel that right now, being deployed in the country that I'm in, I'm not directly contributing to the defense of American soil... but, by no means am I some evil, rich, bloodthirsty, Conquistador that's stomping all over a helpless People. While the government is carrying out whatever plans they have for us being here(they've all been pretty much covered in the thread already), the American Marine, Soldier, Sailor, or Airman is working on the ground amidst mistakes made in the past to rebuild the Iraqi security so that we can finally leave, and not leave it the way it was a few years ago, in turmoil... and yes, we are leaving by the way, more troops are leaving the cities every day.

Now back to the original topic, are American soldiers bad? Since I'm in the Armed Forces it might lead to a biased answer but I don't think they are at all. In fact, as mentioned before, I think they are a representation across the board of young Americans in general, except placed in a career field that demands professionalism... and like all branches of society, unfortunately theres always going to be some bad apples too.

What gets me so heated up is all the hate and anger spewing out towards me, and my brothers and sisters in arms from someone i don't know sitting in a chair releasing all this discontent through their keyboard... after all, my sole purpose in life as of now is the defense of the Constitution, from enemies foreign and domestic, and I'm being told I haven't defended s***... and that I signed up because I'm a psychopath warmongering conquistador, and the Patriot Act is partly my fault, a 21 year old grunt Lance Corporal. Civil Rights Infringement isn't our fault, its the people you elected. I signed up to defend my country. Of course, the haters are saying defend from what? Why do we even need a military? These are rediculous questions. All world militaries are not laying down their weapons and going away anytime soon, and the human race isn't going to transform from the violent, unforgiving, and territorial species its been since the beginning of time to a world of peace loving hippies(that may sound derogatory but it would actually be cool), so America mind as well have a Very capable and ready means of defending itself until that happens... but i know that whatever i say won't change the minds of the true haters, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

This is very long, especially for a first post, but i would like to crush the ideas that were thrown out there on this thread that the military would possibly turn on its own people... if you seriously believe that, it looks like im not the brainwashed psychopath after all. We aren't robots, and we all have families, who happen to be American people, do you honestly think we would follow an order to harm our own families??? Thats absurd. I can guaruntee you that if the Government ever came to that, they would no longer have much of a military.

Just the thoughts of an enlisted grunt, normal guy with friends and family, not some robot babykiller.

It is the way it is has always been . The armies of the occupier and the aggressor are held in contempt , it is no different now to the days of the romans or of the huns . What you do personally is still within the framework of your 'orders ' , you may yourself endeavour to do good , but you are not going to be judged regarding these personal beliefs or agendas , only within the sphere of the operational dictates of your command . Who highlighted individual nazi soldiers , and said , oh well , they had the best interests of the poles at heart when they invaded . Nobody did . You try to break it down to individuals, because it is a subjective experience and holds relevancy perhaps within the US , an outside perspective would never grant you that perogative, just as you would never grant it conversely, should it be another nation embarking upon the same course.

It's not something americans would not do , if it were China or Russia invading nations on some poor pretext for imperial expansion. Given the same lies and excuses as america offers , they would be howling in outrage at the actions of these nations . Nobody would care one iota if some Russian soldier came on here and gave the same account as you did , they would look at the actions of the relevant nations in general, not bog themselves down with the why and wherefores offered by individuals , except maybe as a sideline interest. Nobody would care how he believes is protecting the Russian people . History may afford a footnote to such sentiments , but it won't change the narrative. You'll be judged as a nation , and not on little pockets of personal ideology.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Drexl]

Well my reply was mostly to the American complaints within this thread of their own military and allegations of us being mindless killers and whatnot, but I agree with your standpoint... I can only imagine how the invasion of Iraq was portrayed by media worldwide, considering how badly it's been criticized within the US... I would certainly hope I'm not the equivilant of a Nazi soldier in the eyes of many in other nations, but if so, I have good ole GWB to thank for that. What's important to me is that we maintain a good relationship with the people we're here to help. So far, it's been great, and we're getting ready to leave. As far as what the rest of the world thinks, they don't know how it was here, and they won't ever know, outside of the media and the horror stories that came out of this conflict. As far as the enemy, I can actually relate somewhat..to one who wants to kill those who are occupying his country, but not to the monsters over here who destroy their own people by the dozens. I believe this war never should have happened, but there isn't anything i can do about it other than what i do on an individual level... the rest of the world can call me whatever they like, but only God can judge me.

Network Dude,
Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines are only as good as their leadership.

During World War II, just about everyone in the USA participated in some way (if not just supporting someone who went). It was a universal effort and hard fought for the right reasons.

Fast forward to Vietnam. Wrong reasons for being there; spawned much criminality and chaos. That's what happens when the wrong motives are at play. Civilian leadership and top brass were utterly corrupt. Our soldiers bore the brunt of that, unfortunately.

By the time my war, the Persian Gulf War came around, it was a different world in the U.S.A. and in our military. It had evolved into the world's premier fighting force: sophisticated, professional and educated. We stood the line against a Soviet nemesis and our cause was just. Just as we saw repelling Hussein's Army from Kuwait was just. We had strong leadership back then; and many of my leaders were wisened Vietnam vets were learned hard lessons and endeavored to lead us better. I will always be proud of our conduct in that war; of our leadership; and of our swift victory.

Leadership makes the difference. Sadly, the situation has reverted back to the same corrupt leadership (Obama admin. exluded as it is new) of the Vietnam era. In the Army there's a saying, "# rolls down hill." Rumsfeld's leadership at Defense was appalling and criminal, in my opinion. He set precedents and guidelines that broke the Geneva Conventions, the Constitution and UCMJ - in effect, causing our troops to behave illegally. Worse, the whole way he handled the invasion and occupation has led to uncontrollable chaos and death.

I hope Obama is able to bring an end to the Iraq debacle and get us out of Afghanistan. I'm giving him great latitude in his attempt, though. As Kennedy was before him, Obama is up against forces that will not concede power without a fight. But if anyone can turn this around, I believe Obama and his people can.

As a former soldier, I believe Obama will be a great commander-in-cheif; maybe even as a great as Reagan was. Our military will only improve because of it.

reply to post by mf_luder Oh so glad you did "grace" lol! You seem to have missed or more likely ignored my point. From your tone it sounds like you think I'm 'just not worth it'. Usually hear such deprecation from big-mouths being 'held back' by their girlfriends! To reiterate: I asked "if you could post any evidence to support your claim that courage only resides in those who have enlisted?" IMO it takes a braver man to not do violence when in fear, than he that fights. There were no "veiled attempts" to insult: I simply reported what I've been told by serving soldiers. If I wished to insult, there would be no veil & since your reply was very disrespectful I'll grace you with some more of the above: your post, sir, is a typical example of American braggadocio we are all tired of hearing over & over again & as such an object of ridicule the world over. Furthermore, if you cannot debate someone without baselessly calling them a coward, please you take your ranting elsewhere.

Courage is standing up for what's right. Whether you are marching the streets for peace and solidarity; a protesting monk; serving in the peace corps.; or serving your country in uniform.

One of the most courageous men I've ever seen was young, unarmed and standing in front of a column of tanks at Tieneman Square.

Who among us has ever stood so strong (and been unarmed!)?

reply to post by mf_luder


I do not see your point , If I were to post a video of an attempted murder go wrong , you would question wether I could perhaps do the deed better myself ?

Anyway, those were barely firecrackers , hardly an artillery barrage . Maybe just one mortar . Those homeboys ever get involved in some real action with Russian troops with real weapons , they won't be coming home again . Squealing and whining , giving away their position like that . Not exactly super heroes , like you envisage .



[edit on 21-6-2009 by Drexl]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Wow! How dumb are you??? You think just because one volunteers to join the military, they do it to kill people??? Open up your mind. Many join to make a difference. I know many people who joined to save lives. Be it to hand out food to starving communities or to help those sliced up by shrapnel. Do all join for these reasons??? NO. There are many reasons why people join the military. Many people join soley for the reason of getting a college education completely payed for so that they may live well in this materialistic society. Here's a question for you. If it(joining the military) was the only option left in life for you to put food on the table for your family, would you join or let your family starve? Many people who join are in this position. Do all join to kill? No. Do some join to kill? Yes, it is unfortunately true, you can't rule that out but keep in mind it is only an extremely small percentage. Do all join to save people? No. Do some join to save people? Fortunately yes, it is true. As the OP stated, the people who make up America's military are from all walks of life. I'm guessing many other militaries are just like this. Each indivual has his or her own reason for volunteering. So next time, before you say that everyone who joins, joins to kill people, think a little before your next post and quit being so ignorant.

reply to post by EastCoastKid Yeah, that Chinese bloke was a hero You know what else takes courage? Refusing to take part in something that's wrong, regardless of the personal consequences. I'm only harping on about it because mf_luder said we are all cowards who are not military. Clearly this is untrue & just as clearly a lot of military personnel are not as courageous as he is trying to paint them. Edit to add: I personally intervened alone & unarmed against riot police giving a young lad a savage beating. By fighting? No, by quick talking. I think they were so surprised they forgot to batter me too, although that was what I expected. I just got arrested & fined £260 for, ironically, threatening behaviour lol! Not the same thing as facing down tanks mind...

[edit on 21/6/09 by Bunken Drum]

reply to post by sfields


There are similarities to Nazi Germany . They do not tell the americans the real reasons for war, they prefer the reasons that appeal more to the americans conceptions of themselves and the world . They focus on well established criteria that americans can understand and relate too . It is easy to say your freedoms are threatened and point to an abstract threat , a generic enemy that is a general evil doer , and fighting for truth justice and freedom , rather than a geo political war for resources and corporation profit where millions of innocents are killed and made homeless in it's pursuit .

It does not fit the american ideals to embark on such an endeavour , it does not allow you to hold the moral high ground to which you cling too despite it's absurdity . It spawns motivation type individuals that will rouse the public with their tales of heroic troops that would die for their nation and it's freedom and would ' spill blood so that you do not have to ' . It's been done before , Goebbels would have been proud .

It is not too complicated , as complication is a genuine issue for a lot of Americans , and is something that can be perfectly perpetrated by a concentration on the emotional , ideological and general sensitivities of Americans , without having to answer for it with analytical and/or reality-based data or justifications.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Drexl]

No.

The leaders who are sending our military into war are myopic and misguided. The people who are training our officers are merely following orders from the top.

Soldiers are trained to follow orders. That is how military works. Unfortunately our leaders are taking advantage of the rank and file for their foolish agenda.

It's simple. If you defend "America" (the body of the constitution and the people who reside in this country legally) then no. But if you are one of the many idiots I know personally (as a soldier myself) who thinks that the oath they took means that they do whatever the president says no matter what, and don't have any regard for what they are supposed to be defending, then yes, they are bad, and don't deserve to wear the same uniform as me.

You better respect the military because apparantly they are gonna threaten you with physical violence if they see you on the street when you dont. Real mature thanks for showing everyone how youre actually humble and dont see "civilians" as second class.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by Rulerofthemasses]

Originally posted by network dude

If they did't enlist and there was no military, who would make sure another country didn't decide to take YOUR stuff? Would you personally stand up and try to stop them? Would you ask for help from your neighbors? Would you form an organized group and fight the enemy away? Or would you roll over, curl up into a ball and hope they didn't hurt you too bad? Be careful how you answer. You might start an army.

Please provide an example of this. If Im not mistaken , the last time anyone tried to invade america to take our stuff as you phrase it, was when the British burned the white house in the war of 1812. Since then all the fights have been elsewhere.

I do not count foreign entanglements, as these were opposed by the Founders of our Constitution.

and my answer re "are the solders who protect america bad" is no, they are you and I, even the enemy solders too, in any war, both sides on the front lines just want to get back to their familys, homes... jobs...in every endeavor there are those who will profit from lies... those that knowingly profit from lies and deceit are on my "in need of a moral compass" list.

Those soldiers who truly believe and are willing to live by the the OATH they took to protect america from all enemies (emphasis mine) both foreign and DOMESTIC - I consider my brothers. This applies to Congress critters and Presidents too.

Re Vietnam - then Defense Secretary Robert Mcnamara in his book, apologized for lying to the american people for the pretense of Vietnam.

Armistice day, at the end of WWII, Ho Chi Minh was driving around in an American jeep, with USA flags on each corner, while playing the US national anthem... He had fought with the allies against the japanese invader menace..... He was on OUR SIDE one of the Allies! Then the Allies broke his heart, when they gave "indo china" back to the french... Ho had a pile of good American weapons, but could no longer get parts, ammunition or new ones, to fight his revolutionary war, for the liberation of his own nation from foreign invaders.. so he had no choice but to turn to the ChiComs...for supplies.

Che Guevarra, in South America was a populist, and revolutionary, who opposed US entanglemnts and military adventures in those countries - like the one in Honduras to prevent nationalization of the US Banana cartel, to take back lands illegally seized. The CIA spread the false inform,ation that Che was a member of the communist party - Che Guevara never joined the communist party...period, he was a medical doctor who spent his youth working in leper colonies.. he was a POPULIST, like Patrick Henry, or Thomas jefferson, and he smoked Cohiba's (grin)

and I'd suggest all doubters to read



WAR IS A RACKET

by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient
Major General Smedley D. Butler - USMC Retired

But we are not supposed to know our history so that the same tricks may be used with impunity, and the few that know how the tricks are done, can just be called kooks.

That formula has worked since the beginning of time.

-----------------

There is no shame from being fooled into committing evil acts, there is only shame if you ignore truth when it presents itself.

Perhaps it is time to link to President and General Eisehower's Farewell to Public Office speech about the Military Industrial Complex.. though today we also have the Clandestine Industrial Complex (Drug Distribution ) and the Prison Industrial Complex (50% of american prisoners are in for an ounce or less of pot) , and the Space Weapons Industrial Complex LINK

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace"
Jimi Hendrix - US Army 101st Airborne

"The show must go on" PT Barnum

PS: Looking at the bigger picture prevents the success of covert hypnosis propaganda techniques, which always and repeatedly try to focus the targets attention upon ONE THING, ONE IDEA, ONE ATROCITY...usually one filled with intense emotion



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reply to post by Bunken Drum


"if you could post any evidence to support your claim that courage only resides in those who have enlisted?"

Could you kindly remind me where I stated that enlistment was the only grounds for courage?

As another was also confused by my original posting - which I believe more agreed with than any of yours or his... - I will explain once again.

My target is not those who choose not to enlist or not join the military. God knows the world needs workers in plants and other areas to keep economies running. No. My target is the typical lazy fat ass who sits in their home on their couch and has the gall to insult people like me and my comrades.

You are sick of "American Braggadocio"? Well I'm sick of people from other countries whining and crying about what we're doing. You'll never hear me insult someone from Ireland or Germany or from Russia for that matter. My "Braggadocio" comes from experience and my personal being - not - your comments or the fact I'm an American Soldier.

and for the record... my wife wouldn't hold me back.