Jesus' Christianity - Not Seen Today

The Fathers that translated the Bible were of ONE opinion...they didn't simply translate into their OWN thinking.

Okay, if we're talking solely translation, then riddle me this: if those translating were of ONE opinion, why are there about 15 different english translations?

If we're actually talking about those responsible for compilation as well as translations, are you honestly saying there were no disagreements at the Council of Nicea? Everyone just got together to make a list of the things that they all already agreed on? Highly doubtful.

I knew it was only a matter of time before that 2 Timothy verse reared its ugly head. You see, that was written in a letter to Timothy. At the time that it was written, the letter certainly was not considered scripture, nor were any of the other letters of the new testament, nor even any of the new testament. So if you're going to use that verse, then really you're using it to mean 'all Old Testament scripture is given by inspiration blah blah'.

And if you're not going to use it that way, then I might as well write another book to the bible which includes in its texts 'All of this stuff is true, including this extra book even though none of the other bibles have it. Seriously, this book comes from God too, trust me'. And then use that 'verse' as proof of my book's authenticity.

Honestly, using the bible as proof of the bible is about as specious as it gets.

Originally posted by TheStev

The Fathers that translated the Bible were of ONE opinion...they didn't simply translate into their OWN thinking.

Okay, if we're talking solely translation, then riddle me this: if those translating were of ONE opinion, why are there about 15 different english translations?

I dont know why there are 15 different English translations!
There is only ONE of that in Greek though.

If we're actually talking about those responsible for compilation as well as translations, are you honestly saying there were no disagreements at the Council of Nicea? Everyone just got together to make a list of the things that they all already agreed on? Highly doubtful.

Of-course there were disagreements..You will find that the Septugiant was translated by more then 70...
Septugiant~Old Testament and New~

Javan was the forefather of the Greeks, just as Shem is the ancestor of the Semitic peoples, among these the Jews.
This work, begun in 275 B.C. by a group of seventy rabbis, represents the union of two cultures that forever changed history.
The Work of the Seventy, or THE SEPTUAGINT, is a watershed in Jewish history and critical in the formation of the Christian Church.

I knew it was only a matter of time before that 2 Timothy verse reared its ugly head. You see, that was written in a letter to Timothy. At the time that it was written, the letter certainly was not considered scripture, nor were any of the other letters of the new testament, nor even any of the new testament. So if you're going to use that verse, then really you're using it to mean 'all Old Testament scripture is given by inspiration blah blah'.

And if you're not going to use it that way, then I might as well write another book to the bible which includes in its texts 'All of this stuff is true, including this extra book even though none of the other bibles have it. Seriously, this book comes from God too, trust me'. And then use that 'verse' as proof of my book's authenticity.

Honestly, using the bible as proof of the bible is about as specious as it gets.

Well, I believe that the one with the seventy Scholars is better left as is!

ICXN
helen

Originally posted by helen670
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

Hi/

I don't understand what you are telling me?

You wrote down a passage from Scripture...Yes!
I agree with Saint John...In the Beginning was the WORD.....Jesus says this about Himself in John 8:23...
"You are from beneath;
I am from above.
You are of this world; I am not of this world."
Later in the same chapter we are told He says: "Most assuredly, I say to you,
before Abraham was, I AM."
When St. Moses asked God what His name was,
God answered, "tell them I AM sends you."
When Jesus uses this same convention,
He is saying that He is "I AM", or God.
The Jews of His day were VERY aware of this.
It is because Jesus claimed Himself the Son of God that He was crucified, because many considered Him guilty of blasphemy, of claiming to be God.

Here's another Scripture///2 Timothy 3:16-4:4 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works.
......1/ I charge thee therefore before God,
and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2/ Preach the word; be instant in season,
out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3/ For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears;
4/ And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Here we see that it was about the Old Testament....made perfect in Doctrine.
For the future after Christ....And all shall turn AWAY their ears from the truth......

ICXN
helen

I agree with the above scripture, of course. I have no issue with that. It is not a conflict. Jesus came to give man grace, forgiveness for free, a gift we cannot pay for. We can accept that gift here, or after we die. Most will accept it after we die, because they have not heard of Jesus. They will be judged sinful based their works, and then will be forgiven of those sins by the grace of God when they receive the preaching from Jesus. During that time, one by one, every knee shall bow and ever tongue confess that Jesus is God and accept His forgiveness so that they may enter into their rest with Him. Satan, however, will not accept and will be forever held in the second death.

reply to post by TheStev


I also believe that the Bible is true, or inerrant. I think the concept here is that the "original autographs" were inerrant, and the originals are no longer in existence. That being said, we likely have a nearly perfect "copy" due to the great work of scholars who assembled thousands of copies to insure that the original, which would have been used to begin the copies, was deduced from the accuracy of the written words.

A manuscript would last up to 300 years, so it is likely that by the time of the Council of Nicea they would have had a first or second generation copy. We have books today that have lasted much longer. Then, with the painstaking process of separating forgeries and intentionally misleading documents that were created either because (1) someone wanted notoriety ("I have a copy made by Judas." or "I have the copy made by Mary, the friend of Jesus," etc.) or they (2) wanted to destroy the church and created books with different doctrine (like the Alexandrian codices used in to make the NIV and the Catholic Douhey-Rheems), etc. Alexandrians were known gnostics criticizing the Apostles and creating different doctrine (Acts 6:9). The Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus were written by the Alexandrians, and the doctrines are not Christian but are gnostic. Hence, you should avoid the NIV, and use the KJV.

reply to post by ravhen


Oh thank goodness you did this already. I was flexing my fingers getting ready to type out almost exactly what you already did. Way to go man!
Free ticket to Heaven? I've never heard of such rediculousness. Has he ever heard of standing before God? Judgement day? Pennance? Confession? His ideas are scary if you ask me

Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by ravhen

 

Oh thank goodness you did this already. I was flexing my fingers getting ready to type out almost exactly what you already did. Way to go man!
Free ticket to Heaven? I've never heard of such rediculousness. Has he ever heard of standing before God? Judgement day? Pennance? Confession? His ideas are scary if you ask me

Please refer to your Bible. For example, in Romans 8:1, you can see that you are not going to be condemned. How would you be condemned? Your sins are forgiven, paid for on the cross. You stand before God sinless. What is there to judge? Christians are forgiven. That means they have no sins. They are taken away and "buried in the deepest part of the ocean" and He says He will "remember them no more." If you are standing before God being judged, you have sins. That is not a Christian condition. However, that being said, you will receive the Word after you die, and you have plenty of time to accept what Jesus did for you then. Jesus paid for your sins, therefore you have no penance. You have confessed your sins to Him, therefore there is no intermediary for you to confess sins that you have been forgiven. Your judgment day will be a day of awards, where you will receive 'crowns', not hell or damnation. You're going to the "oscars" not to the courtroom. In this life, your actions show God how much you love Him. They do not forbid you heaven. They do, however, have an effect on the size of the positive reward you will receive in heaven. That being said, all will be happy, full of the love of God.

Scary? I find that interesting. So, if God loves you and gives you heaven for free because He sent His Son to die for your sins, is that good news or scary news? What more do you think is necessary for you to earn heaven? Isn't the death of God on the cross enough? Do you think there is something you can contribute to that? Might I suggest you consider who and what we are as humans? Here's a photo of the earth from space. searching4alpha.files.wordpress.com... You're on that somewhere. Well, the God who made that dot and every other one of the hundreds of trillions of stars and their dots, died on a cross to save you from judgment. It's scary to me that you don't think that's enough....

Nothing personal, but I think most people underestimate the incredible loving sacrifice Jesus made on the cross for them. It's prideful and presumptuous to think our puny works make any difference at all... In fact, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags." Isaiah 64:6 www.bibleword.org...

[edit on 20-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

Jesus' christianity isnt meant to be heard except in its true form..living.

Meaning that when you read the bible, and live your life. Despite sin or rightiousness. You will come to a understanding of God, and in that be a silent and humble example of charity, goodwill and living experience. So its a good thing i think that Jesus' life is not an overblown "american idol" thing. Because as much as he (christ) is mocked by money lovers in ignorance. They will by his silent and true example be released from such faulty viewpoints one day.

reply to post by mastermind77

I agree, as said above, and that time will, for most people, occur after death.

reply to post by Jim Scott


Nope. You're manipulating the bible to suit what you want it to mean. Millions of people for 2 thousand years werent wrong. You are. Im not gonna argue with someone who's telling me that murder is forgiven when one dies. Bye now

reply to post by Jim Scott


Of course it's scary! You're telling people that they don't have to be righteous to get to Heaven. That nobody has to be accountable for their actions here on Earth! That is a direct contradiction to what Jesus was teaching. How can you even be serious? Did you kill and rape and need to twist the current formula to save your own soul? Stop spewing this garbage. Bring in 5 more ppl who agree with you and I will consider listening to more of what you have to say, but until then all I see is 1 renegade who is misinterpreting the Gospels

Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

Nope. You're manipulating the bible to suit what you want it to mean. Millions of people for 2 thousand years werent wrong. You are. Im not gonna argue with someone who's telling me that murder is forgiven when one dies. Bye now

The Apostle Paul was holding the cloak of Stephen when Stephen was being stoned. Paul was a party to the first martyrdom of a Christian.

On the cross, Jesus said to the Father about the people who were killing him "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

Sorry, but God forgives murderers.

Originally posted by spinalremain
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

Of course it's scary! You're telling people that they don't have to be righteous to get to Heaven. That nobody has to be accountable for their actions here on Earth! That is a direct contradiction to what Jesus was teaching. How can you even be serious? Did you kill and rape and need to twist the current formula to save your own soul? Stop spewing this garbage. Bring in 5 more ppl who agree with you and I will consider listening to more of what you have to say, but until then all I see is 1 renegade who is misinterpreting the Gospels

The degree of sin seems to be the emphasis here. You suggest that a murderer cannot get forgiven, but a thief can be. Actually, sin of any kind or degree will keep you from heaven. Rev 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." The apostle Peter lied, denying Christ 3 times. He was forgiven. Paul assisted in the stoning of Stephen. He was a chief persecutor of Christians. He was chosen by Jesus to be an Apostle. I do not interpret the gospel, the gospel presents the events and clear sayings of Jesus.

None is righteous, no not one. We are all under faith, not law. We cannot be obedient. It is not our nature to obey. We are all lost. See Romans 3:

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

God justifies us by our faith in Jesus, whether now or after death. God is merciful and kind, compassionate and loving. He will not destroy His children. He has sent them a redeemer. That is the good news (gospel). You have nothing to fear. He is the Good Shepherd, who leaves the 99 to find the one lost sheep and return it to His fold. In his final prayers in the garden, He told the Father that he had lost none of his sheep, except the son of perdition (Satan)." Judas is often thought of as this son, but we note that Satan entered into Judas at the last supper. Satan was always trying to destroy God's plan, starting with the fall of Adam and Eve.


[edit on 20-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by helen670
I dont know why there are 15 different English translations!

I think you've answered this yourself about the Nicean Council, because there were disagreements.

And if there were disagreements at the Nicean Council, and disagreements in the English translations, are we honestly to believe there were no disagreements among the 70 scholars who created the Septuagint? At least with the disagreements in English translations we get to see what the disagreements are. With the Nicean Council and Sepuagint, we simply must take the word of the most powerful members of both of those groups.

And Jim, I do agree with you somewhat about the Nicean Council, I just think it's entirely possible that some of the people who were out to destroy the church just might have had their books included. Or if not 'destroy' then perhaps co-opt. The church was 'organised' enough by this point to have a political component, and when you combine politics with the fallen nature of all man, how can we trust the outcome of a Council like this?

Sorry, I've kinda turned this into a 'authenticity of the Bible' discussion. I just think with all the corrupt men whose hands have passed this book from the time it was first written to now it's impossible for the book to have not been corrupted. As far as I'm concerned, this applies to the KJV as much as the NIV - there were other politics and influences in the creation of the KJV just as there were with the NIV. Sure, I know it's God's word and he's meant to have protected it. But are we really to believe that in every other way man has free will, but when it comes to the compilation and translation of the bible these men are kept on a tight leash by God?

That's not to say I think it should be dismissed out of hand, which I why I think there were some great points in the OP. I just think most of today's religious disagreements come from different interpretations of the same texts. It's worth reading the bible, but I can't see that any good has ever come from analysisng and following it to the letter (or at least the letter of one's own interpretation, there's no one true 'letter' where a text like this is concerned).

reply to post by TheStev

I agree, there could be some errors in the KJV. Nothing seems to be perfect, especially the translation and understanding of the Bible. With all the language differences, such as declensions, the Greek is better and more complex than the English at saying what the original authors meant. That being said, we have a reasonable reading in the KJV, enough to get it right. The only errors I have found, or seen brought up, have nothing to do with essentials. They would have more to do with genealogical or grammatical problems.

Again, with a reliable enough text, we get the message. Jesus paid the price for us. We can accept or reject the payment for ourselves. After death, when we see clearly the meaning of these things and the love of God, we will understand His compassion and longsuffering for us, and accept the eternal life which He offers.

Therefore, in the text, if it says all men are saved and in another place it says men are saved if they are obedient, one can conclude that there are none obedient except Jesus and He paid for each of us by his obedience. Therefore, all men are saved. Most understand this to mean that the must be obedient. However, the Bible clearly states that only Jesus was obedient. As in Romans 5:18-19:

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You see, it was never about our righteousness....only His. That's one reason why it's good news. Wouldn't be good news if I had to do it myself, right?


[edit on 20-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

What is the point of this thread, other than preaching?

I really don't see anything important or informative being presented in this thread, other than an endorsement of living carelessly and without any regard to responsibility.

That is a very dangerous idea to suggest.

reply to post by Jim Scott


I'm going to tell you the cold simple truth about your words. Many if not all christians think as you do. They simply do not practice it.


That is all. I consider it a facade. People want to be good. You can't turn a bad man good, but you can easily turn a good man bad. If a good man even exits..


My suggestion to you, if you truley believe that you are going to carry out Jesus' will, is not to preach about. Never preach about it. Preaching is words, and words are meaningless. If you want to show "True Christianity" then go show it through your actions, instead of telling.

So when you say the bible is inerrant, you're not referring to the KJV, which you now say may have errors? Sorry to point out an apparent contradiction, I'm just trying to get a feel for where you're coming from.

I must also wonder: if some errors can be identified using other texts, what other errors might exist in the text that cannot be identified in the same way?

As I mention, though, I do agree with the basic message you've put across here. I think there is some truth in the bible, and what you've had listed here is basically that. I'm just wary of people who consider every word of the bible to have come straight from God's mouth. I think that's dangerous.

This is an interesting thread, Jim, and well done. Christianity is quite different from Christ's time and personally I would think he would be appalled by what is going on. The lust and greed of organized religion has rotted the institution to its' very core.

However, if we don't carry our crosses as Christ did what was his sacrifice really worth. One cannot receive grace without good works. You can say you are a follower of Christ until your blue in the face but if you don't back it up with action it doesn't mean anything. Christ wants us to live our lives as he did to the best of our abilities. He wants us to be kind, sympathetic, compassionate, forgiving, and to be understanding to the ones that our out to do us harm. That is what Christ wants for humanity not how many times one kneels and prays. Christ never left this earth and he is still inside ourselves we just have to let him out. We have the propensity to convey his message to others.

I see people every day that say they are questions but in their daily lives one could see they are only hypocrites. If one doesn't live by Christs example to the best of their ability then their religious affiliation is no different than calling themselves Republican or Democrat. I'll give an example of the Church in this day age.

When I was a boy I went to mass with my family and my mother observed people rushing past people to get to their pew for the mass and she responded with a remark: "Look at all these fellow "Christians," can't even hold the door open for others." No one even paid any attention to what she said. Everyone thinks that they are being saved, but in all reality, they are burning, because they care not for others in humanity; because they are shackled by their ideology.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by Jakes51]

[edit on 20-6-2009 by Jakes51]

[edit on 20-6-2009 by Jakes51]

You can always tell a TRUE christian by what day
of the week he/she observes the sabbath.
That cuts to the chase of what it really means,
and separates his true followers. Persecution anyone?
There are many pagan abberations of his truth,...
especially nowadays!

Isaiah 56:2 -Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7

www.truthontheweb.org...
Interesting reads here:
www.present-truth.net...
www.bible.ca...

God, Creator of the Sabbath, determines when it begins and ends, and it was observed from sunset to sunset throughout the Bible. His Sabbath begins Friday evening at sunset and ends Saturday evening at sunset.

www.ucg.org...
Something to ponder..... Thanks for the thread!

Originally posted by PieKeeper
What is the point of this thread, other than preaching?

I really don't see anything important or informative being presented in this thread, other than an endorsement of living carelessly and without any regard to responsibility.

That is a very dangerous idea to suggest.

The thread describes the teaching of Jesus, which is the good news, not the teaching of most Christian churches and members today. It is significantly different. It does not endorse living carelessly or irresponsibly. When one understands the love of Jesus given on the cross, one would never offend Him. The actions of the individual are not to be based on compulsory laws or commandments, but on betraying a friend. To that end, this information must circulate.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?