Timewave Zero - Countdown to Transition

reply to post by crankyoldman


The similarity between the Timewave Zero graphs and the Webbot data has been noted in the past, but this is the first time, to my knowledge, that Clif High has published a chart of the webbot data.

www.halfpasthuman.com...

I read this article just after it was published and knew the chart looked like the Kelley Timewave Zero graph and figured it was too similar. I did a quick photoshop overlay and indeed, they are an almost perfect match. Although I've followed the work of George Ure and Clif High since 2005, I've been skeptical of the webbots actual working process. I first contacted Clif in 2006 pointing out that the Webbot data seems to be similar to the Timewave Zero. He responded stated:

'We get the same stuff. Our longer term linguistic values seem to
track the timewave stuff pretty well. We have more details though.
But, may well be incorrect as we are inventing our technique as we
go along.

Thanks. Cliff'

(he spelt 'Cliff' with a double 'ff', where subsequently it has been one 'f' - curious)

I recently contacted Clif about his new webbot chart, pointing out that it was an almost perfect match with the Kelley Timewave Zero data set and that I felt it was highly unlikely to be independent data. Over a few emails back and forth, here's what Clif stated (summarised, but if you want the full email thread, please contact me):

- He's wasn't aware of the complexity nor contention between the various timewave graphs (he apparently didn't know about the Sheliak version).

- Igor, his assistant, has a copy of the timewave software, but Clif wasn't sure which version.

- He was suprised by the data presented in his chart, as it doesn't accurately model their data gathering. Why not? - apparently their charts are altered by the process of making them.

- He can't duplicate the chart as the data set extract hasn't been kept. Why? - apparently too voluminous to keep.

- He can't create a new chart using previous data, so we can't compare it against the Timewave Zero graphs.

- He will create a new chart of the longterm data in about a month or so. We can then check this against the Timewave Zero graphs.

- In a later email Clif claimed to have now read all of Terence McKenna's books and now understands 'what he was after with the TMZ effect'. This is quite surprising considering this particular email conversation only began a week earlier when he claimed he wasn't aware of the complexity nor contention between the different Timewave data.

Here's a short video on the subject:

www.youtube.com...


To sum up:

- The Kelley Timewave Zero data is outdated (the Sheliak wave is a more mathematically robust structure).
- The webbots may well have been 'influenced' by the Kelley Timewave data.
- The focus on November as a tipping point is based on analysis of the outdated Kelley timewave Zero data.


[edit on 16-7-2010 by ramblings]

[edit on 16-7-2010 by ramblings]

reply to post by ramblings


Thank you for that detailed response. It is interesting that you say that the Sheliak is more complete. I have only followed the Kelly and have found it accurate based on the the alerting of changes to come, not changes that have happened - which seems more useful. The November date lines up with the Mayan noted sequence quite well in both time and consciousness process. This would simply suggest that a huge shift in consciousness is possible, should you choose to access it, at or around that time. It would also suggest that it is likely that there will be a collective reality reflection to that shift.

cheers

I can see where it goes with Novelty and Change...

- 2008 was together with 2001 the most eventful year of my life, and also both these years have been the hardest ever in my life.

I can see 2nd week of June 2009 as a Crunch Time and yes, after that month my choices were limited , but a great internal change made me go on and think out of the box.
The rest of the summer was absolutely uneventful...I can say it was a time of rest and Release...

This wave of change was just waiting to explode...So, summer of 2009 was the calm eye of the cyclone and the real storm came just freakingly out of the blue on October 6 2009...
I can fairly say that since October 6 2009 I felt a kinda huge shift, the wave of change never stopped since that day...

Just before that day I learnt that let someone go is the best thing to do when tension prevails.
I felt like I failed in a big way...But I understood that my life was going somewhere else...
It was a decision I never imagined in my life...

That was it...My old life was completely over...Ready to be made new...I left all my past behind me, coming October 2009...At the beginning it was a suffering decision, but with the time, I managed to go on on a completely new route.



Near the middle of March my life was so weird it felt like out of current reality...
I'm glad Evasius felt in a similar way , iven he pointed out mid- March.
That was another Eye of the Cyclone...Waiting to storm completely out of the blue near April 25...Than, since April , at least in my life , and in the life of so many people I know, went simply sky high...

I entered May feeling I was plenty of choices...Contrary to May 2009, where I felt like in cage...

June was completely trasformative to me...June 14 to June 23 was for me the period of maximum novelty, I was so plenty of choices that I had difficulty choosing...

Than it all calmed down, until indeed July 7- 11, that were kinda hard days to me...
I still don't know if this calm will last, because recently I was made aware of some things...

I don't even know if I like calm, because looking to the old results, it always resulted in a out of the blue sudden freaking change weeks after.


I feel August will be the time that will decide which way I will go, responsability or independence, focus on someone else's needs or focus on my needs...

Wow, high school times feel like pre-history...My life was built all over again after that, it seems totally like another life compared to now...





[edit on 17-7-2010 by Zagari]

reply to post by ramblings


We will see by October 18- 21 if the Sheliak is really that reliable. Before that date we won't see it.
I feel Kelley its okay, given that it was fairly precise when Evasius started analyzing it in 2009.
Anyway, less the November shift, there are few differences between Kelley and Sheliak.

wow
Ive only read the first couple of pages lots to read. This runs along with what i just posted regarding Event Horizon
S&F

reply to post by ramblings


My mantra regarding this issue of varying data sets is this:

We create reality as we go.
Choose a path and make it so.

The specific path I've had the most success with is the Kelley graph, and so I have chosen to use it regularly. I have yet to see the Sheliak data provide as close a correlation to our historical timeline. Graphic examples of past 'hits' using solely Sheliak would be appreciated.

In fact, if anyone wishes to join me as a 'timewave technician' and present this theory from the standpoints of either Sheliak or Watkins then you are more than welcome to do so. Consider this a formal call for interest. I do request however that whoever takes up this offer must:

(1) actually have the DOS software (no java please) - version 7 is preferred. I plan on using only v7 Kelley/King Wen data once my home PC is back up and running.  

(2) You need to be capable of capturing a screenshot and presenting it with annotations - I do it the difficult way with a camera and Photoshop. There evidently are programs that capture images from DOS as well.

(3) You will need an avatar (which I can help you create if you wish), and it must have some aspect of it displaying a Timewave theme.

(4) You will need to not only be aware of how the graph correlates to world events, you'll also need to be aware of possible correlations in your own life (and be possibly willing to share those findings).

(5) Most importantly there needs to be a certain amount of communication between us regarding posting our data and how it's presented.

So send me a U2U if interested.

I would like to add that none of these data sets are 'outdated,' and being more 'mathatically sound' means little if there is no track record of correlative data backing these claims. 

We will hold these graphs up to history as it happens while also taking into account events in our personal lives as well. The Timewave works on many levels, and to disregard one for the assumed greater importance of the other would be careless.             

So like I said, if interested, let me know. Then choose a path and make it so.

[edit on 17/7/10 by Evasius]

reply to post by Evasius


Sounds like an interesting idea, although not my type of thing. Personally i think that as soon as someone begins to categorise themselves or starts to build a shared identity around themselves and their research that they loose something of themselves and the path/progress begins to take on a kinda cult quality. Flexibilty and freedom may suffer.

That said, it would be interesting to see how this cult/group (for want of a better expression) interacted with the individual progress and research of others.

I wish you luck

Anyone noticed how the AUGUST 11 DIP is at least as big as the one of OCTOBER 21 if not even BIGGER?

( The August 11 dip corresponds to something happening involving Usa- Mexico tension/turmoil ).

- Dates August 18 1861 to October 16 1861 1:00 am to 11:00 pm.

August 19 – First ascent of Weisshorn, fifth highest summit in the Alps.
August 27 – Martin Doyle's is the last execution in Britain for attempted murder.
September 3 – American Civil War: Confederate General Leonidas Polk invades neutral Kentucky, prompting the state legislature to ask for Union assistance.
September 6 – American Civil War: Forces under Union General Ulysses S. Grant bloodlessly capture Paducah, Kentucky, which gives the Union control the mouth of the Tennessee River.
October 9 – American Civil War – Battle of Santa Rosa Island: Confederate forces are defeated in their effort to take the island.

JULY 20- 22

October 10 to December 8 1857

October 13 – New York banks close following a major financial panic and do not reopen until December 12.
THIS--- JULY 20
October 24 – Sheffield F.C., the world's first association football team, is founded in Sheffield, England.
November 1 – Present-day Pakistan officially becomes part of Indian empire of the British Raj
November 30 – President of Mexico Ignacio Comonfort is succeeded by Félix María Zuloaga.

February 15 1858 to April 14 1858

March 30 – Hyman Lipman patents a pencil with an attached eraser.



The minor cycle ending on November 14 may still work.
I noticed how these repetitions came true:

- Ixtoc Oil Spill
- Significant Pope visit
- Embassy attacked
- Mount St Helens- Iceland Volcano
- Beginning of aids - Oil Spill related disease?
- Los Angeles riots- Oakland riots, Italy riots
- Bomb car threat in Usa

And we get that we will just start tomorrow until August 11 the cycle Jan-Feb. 1996 to April- May 2000...

Than in August we will have April- May 2000 to June - July 2004, in September we will have June- July 2004 to September - October 2008 and than around September - October 2010 all the remaining years.

I say PREPARE for August 11, because it seems a very big dip...
I also have a feeling for July 20- 22 dates...Remember the possible average mistake of 22 to 29 days...

July 13 2010 repeated the bomb car attack of 1993 in NY.
July 25 repeates Oklahoma bombing 1995.
August 18 repeates April 1999 school shooting.
August 31 to September 13 2010 repeates 9/11.




[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

Why don't we just shut ourselves in a dark room, and fear every single day to come? I mean, if theres a mistake average of 22 - 29 days, then any day could be the end of the world. So if we're all fearing for our lives, that just might help explain the dips in the graph!

Originally posted by Zagari
Anyone noticed how the AUGUST 11 DIP is at least as big as the one of OCTOBER 21 if not even BIGGER?

( The August 11 dip corresponds to something happening involving Usa- Mexico tension/turmoil ).

- Dates August 18 1861 to October 16 1861 1:00 am to 11:00 pm.

August 19 – First ascent of Weisshorn, fifth highest summit in the Alps.
August 27 – Martin Doyle's is the last execution in Britain for attempted murder.
September 3 – American Civil War: Confederate General Leonidas Polk invades neutral Kentucky, prompting the state legislature to ask for Union assistance.
September 6 – American Civil War: Forces under Union General Ulysses S. Grant bloodlessly capture Paducah, Kentucky, which gives the Union control the mouth of the Tennessee River.
October 9 – American Civil War – Battle of Santa Rosa Island: Confederate forces are defeated in their effort to take the island.

JULY 20- 22

October 10 to December 8 1857

October 13 – New York banks close following a major financial panic and do not reopen until December 12.
THIS--- JULY 20
October 24 – Sheffield F.C., the world's first association football team, is founded in Sheffield, England.
November 1 – Present-day Pakistan officially becomes part of Indian empire of the British Raj
November 30 – President of Mexico Ignacio Comonfort is succeeded by Félix María Zuloaga.

February 15 1858 to April 14 1858

March 30 – Hyman Lipman patents a pencil with an attached eraser.



The minor cycle ending on November 14 may still work.
I noticed how these repetitions came true:

- Ixtoc Oil Spill
- Significant Pope visit
- Embassy attacked
- Mount St Helens- Iceland Volcano
- Beginning of aids - Oil Spill related disease?
- Los Angeles riots- Oakland riots, Italy riots
- Bomb car threat in Usa

And we get that we will just start tomorrow until August 11 the cycle Jan-Feb. 1996 to April- May 2000...

Than in August we will have April- May 2000 to June - July 2004, in September we will have June- July 2004 to September - October 2008 and than around September - October 2010 all the remaining years.

I say PREPARE for August 11, because it seems a very big dip...
I also have a feeling for July 20- 22 dates...Remember the possible average mistake of 22 to 29 days...

July 13 2010 repeated the bomb car attack of 1993 in NY.
July 25 repeates Oklahoma bombing 1995.
August 18 repeates April 1999 school shooting.
August 31 to September 13 2010 repeates 9/11.




[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Zagari]

Just as you had a feeling about July 8-9th and the collapse of the US economy or July 3-4 and a Cherynobyl like event....TWZ doesn't have dates to attach to it and arbitrarily attaching dates to it isn't helping TWZ at all.

I put in tomorrow (Monday) and shifted back using Sheliak. It corresponds to August 5th through October 8th 1857. I then came across the "Panic of 1857" (en.wikipedia.org...). If the timewave is related to consciousness then this would certainly be an event. Reading up on the panic it describes a market high in 1852 which hit bottom in 1857, specifically on October 13th at which point banks would close until December 12th. That would correspond to Tuesday of this week.

The Sheliak chart from 1852 to the end of 1857 is interesting. It is a slow build up to the end of 1855 at which point there is a release which bottoms out near October in 1857. The same period shifted forward corresponded to June 17th, peaking on July 9th and bottoming out on July 19th.

From 1852 to 1857 the stock market declined by 66% compared to inflation. The panic spread to Europe, South America, and Asia.

Truly, history certainly repeats itself in this statement from Wiki:

"After a large increase in state banks in the early 1850's, by July 1856, banks began to lend far more money than they could back up in specie even as deposits began to fall." Depositors did not run on the banks until October 13th 1857. In addition, British investors started removing funds from US banks and there was a collapse in speculative land programs (real estate bubble).

Two other economic events were : (a) In mid-September, 30000 pounds of gold was lost at sea off the coast of North Carolina on a voyage from San Francisco and (b) the Dred Scott v. Sanford case was also ruled on by the Supreme Court in 1857. The ruling on Slavery threatened to open slavery up to the west which pushed railroad bonds to the verge of collapse.

The south was less hit than the north by the panic. If the time wave can be followed to this detail, which granted it might not be, then we should see a significant loss of consumer and investor confidence in the economy over the next couple of days.

A further validation of this resonance (at least to me) is the following statement from The History of the United States (1849-1865) "...immediately following Buchanan's inauguration, there was a sudden depression, known as the Panic of 1857, which weakened the credibility of the Democratic Party further." That sounds an awful lot like a Democratic party which is going to get pounded in November due to lost jobs and wealth. The same, in 1860 led to the election of Lincoln and the succession of the southern states leading to Civil war.

[edit on 18-7-2010 by ararisq]

Just admit it. None of you on here have the slightest clue of the maths behind all of this.

Prove me wrong and make me a believer.

Originally posted by Zagari
reply to post by ramblings

 

We will see by October 18- 21 if the Sheliak is really that reliable. Before that date we won't see it.

See my post above on the 'Panic of 1857'. I get that it is difficult to track earthquakes and single day-events - this should be a pretty easy one to follow and prove or disprove though as it centers around a large percentage of the world over a historical long period of time (several months and years) all feeling the effect of economic depression and panic.

reply to post by Evasius


What graph had the tension building up to July 11, then being released through most of the 2nd half of this year? Was that Kelly?

Anyway, I can see that to be true. I'm around the public a lot at the grocery store I work at, and one thing I noticed is that up until last week, people were getting tenser and tenser, more and more irritated (possibly related to oil spill)? This past week, I've seen a huge sigh of relief in the people I'm around, they seem to be releasing some of that built up tension, and becoming a bit calmer. Let's see if that continues...

Wrong- Do you realize that if you take the real Timewave calculator website it shows you that a single day of 2010 takes back to 2 precise months of the past???
You put July 20 2010 the whole day from 1 am to 11 pm of night and you get 2 months of a 1850s decade specific year that brings you to specific events...Yes, yes, yes, dates and events...So deal with it .
Do US a favor...Inform yourself before to speak. You can say whatever you say but I will always have a answer for you.


[edit on 19-7-2010 by Zagari]

reply to post by Slippery Jim



We know the page that shows the math of Timewave. We are very informed.
Here is the page: www.fractal-timewave.com... AND www.levity.com...
To prove you wrong FIRST open your mind and wake up. THAN search for past topics about Timewave to find out the proof you are searching for ( 2008 crash, February 7 2009, June 25 2009, April 10-14 2010 ) or wait August 11.

[edit on 19-7-2010 by Zagari]

Originally posted by Wobbly Anomaly
reply to post by Evasius

 

Personally i think that as soon as someone begins to categorise themselves or starts to build a shared identity around themselves and their research that they loose something of themselves and the path/progress begins to take on a kinda cult quality. Flexibilty and freedom may suffer.

Well to begin, my post above was a request for help with a possible tripling of my workload. I would like to get back in the habit of posting more continual data in this thread, but requests like that of Ramblings to incorporate the Sheliak graphs as well results in a doubling of my time spent on this subject (or a tripling if I want to be fair and include Watkins' data as well). It is however a valid request, so I put the call out, though I would prefer to keep a common standard of presentation across the three sets of graphs. I placed no stipulations on subjectivity, interpretation, research results, etc.

Further, the 'shared identity' or categorization you're concerned about would be in a fairly general sense, that is: 'timewave technician' and 'timewave zero' respectively. Have researchers choosing to specialize in a particular field 'lost' something of themselves in doing so? At what point do they reach a 'cult' status as you say?

I'm quite happy continuing to post the Kelley data, but I'm slightly hesitant to take on more as time progresses, hence the request. No hindrance of freedoms or alteration of paths intended.

Let me put it to you this way - right now I'm 'Evasius, party of one' sitting at a table with 3 set places, and there's no way I can eat all this so you're welcome to join me. I'd hate to have to stiff this joint and sneak out the back...so I'll just sit here, sip on my cool-aid, and I'll keep doodling on my napkin while the food gets cold...




[edit on 19/7/10 by Evasius]

Originally posted by Evasius

Originally posted by Wobbly Anomaly
reply to post by Evasius

 

Personally i think that as soon as someone begins to categorise themselves or starts to build a shared identity around themselves and their research that they loose something of themselves and the path/progress begins to take on a kinda cult quality. Flexibilty and freedom may suffer.

Well to begin, my post above was a request for help with a possible tripling of my workload. I would like to get back in the habit of posting more continual data in this thread, but requests like that of Ramblings to incorporate the Sheliak graphs as well results in a doubling of my time spent on this subject (or a tripling if I want to be fair and include Watkins' data as well). It is however a valid request, so I put the call out, though I would prefer to keep a common standard of presentation across the three sets of graphs. I placed no stipulations on subjectivity, interpretation, research results, etc.

Further, the 'shared identity' or categorization you're concerned about would be in a fairly general sense, that is: 'timewave technician' and 'timewave zero' respectively. Have researchers choosing to specialize in a particular field 'lost' something of themselves in doing so? At what point do they reach a 'cult' status as you say?

I'm quite happy continuing to post the Kelley data, but I'm slightly hesitant to take on more as time progresses, hence the request. No hindrance of freedoms or alteration of paths intended.

Let me put it to you this way - right now I'm 'Evasius, party of one' sitting at a table with 3 set places, and there's no way I can eat all this so you're welcome to join me. I'd
hate to have to stiff this joint and sneak out the back...so I'll just sit here, sip on my cool-aid, and I'll keep doodling on my napkin while the food gets cold...

[edit on 19/7/10 by Evasius]

This is a big site Evasiuis and people express themselves on here with some cool avatar pics which we are able to associate with the character or personality behind them. I'm sure you are very aware that when a few people begin to share a particular theme, especially one connected to a particular thread, then they will be viewed in a slightly different way than if they have no avatar or one they've chosen for personal reasons. Its a bit like wearing a uniform, military or wallmart or whatever. A uniform serves a purpose.

I'm pretty sure this is a 'sucking eggs' situation but i'll say it anyway. Once you wear a uniform or identify yourself as being connected to a movement or a piece of research, most people will begin to act a little differently. It introduces expectations, it alters your path and therefore your perceptions. 'Choose your own path but change your identity in line with me' is a bit of a dichotomy.

Ive noticed a slight trend on here, people associating the timewave with how they feel or their own personal experiences. I can equate this to people who believe in star signs and make their horoscope fit with their daily lives. In my opinion the timewave, if it is valid, must describe something far bigger than the individuals studying it. If it best describes the individuals studying it then the most likely scenario is a self fulfilling prophesy, like trashy horoscopes. so that is my main niggle with your idea. Some people are very easily influenced.

This post is'nt really the place to discuss this (ive mentioned it pages back) but my research suggests the timewave (if valid) has a much more universal significance.

I enjoy reading your opinions on McKennas work and i also enjoy reading Zagari's and others, i enjoy the mistakes and directions and sub-paths you all take so maybe its a selfish thing that i would prefer to see that continue.

All that said, i would also enjoy watching how the wording, meaning and expression of people changed if they took you up on your idea. That in itself would be an interesting social experiment and of course the methods you use may actually turn out to be correct and having a team of like minded and uniformed thinkers may indeed crack the nut. I dont believe it will, but thats subjective

Like i say, 'sucking eggs', i'm sure you know the effect it might have when you suggest people 'join' you and so i cannot help but question the motives behind it (i'm not saying any of your motives are negative....at all) but you are not sat at a table by yourself. There are lots of us on just this thread throwing a lot of input into this subject and with all due respect, you may be missing something very crucial which may continue to be missed if people begin to structure their research , however slight, around your subjective experience of the timewave.

I hope you dont think i'm having a go at you, i'm not, if the timewave has any value, if it is important to our survival, then we need to question, question, question, otherwise it's just a fun game, a horoscope, a folly.

but there is nothing wrong with games and the victorians built some amazing follies.....and learnt from doing so.

I agree with what Wobbly Anomaly says.

I would like to say that every time the Timewave graph descends into novelty my life has had big changes.
Yes, big changes and I would like to point, in focusing on some issue. Every novelty dip, the major issues changes, the focus of my life is on something else.
For example, with October 7 2008 my focus changed from summer to school time, starting last year of High School.
If you let me, I would like to point the average mistake of 22 to 29 days, that brings to September 15 2008, both economic issues and my first day of school that year.
Than, when February 7 came, my focus changed to go on Australian situation, given that my whole family used to love that country, we were sad because of the bad events.
On April 24 2009, all my focus went on swine flu situation, and with average mistake we go to March 26 2009, when my focus changed on the news of my friend moving.
Than on June 25 2009, my focus both changed on Mj and my high school exams beginning that day.
On July 22 2009, my focus changed from staying at home to holiday. given that I was just arrived to my vacation place.
On October 26 2009, well, my focus changed on the coming of two new friends that brought very major change to my life.
I would like to point here the average mistake here, that would bring to October 4 , when my focus changed on a situation when I had to let go a dear friend and our friendship changed and still its in the same way.
It was a very good friendship and than it just changed on that day.
On January 12 2010, my focus was on a food poisoning that affected my whole family around that day.
On February 14 2010, my focus changed completely on the day before, a new friend, a schocking news and some other novel news in my life, plus 2 festivities on same day on the 14th.
On March 1 2010 the focus changed on my birthday, and if we put the average mistake on February 25 we get February 2 when I started focusing on writing my new book.
On March 20 2010 also my focus changed , and so it was on April 10, when my focus was on some big disappointment with my friendships.
On April 14 2010, my focus changed on a new place and new people that i met.
I guess my focus will greatly change on July 20- 22, and on August 11- 13, just like July 14 2010, when my focus changed to a big surprising news that still is on my focus now, that could bring to unknown consequences.

So, yes, Timewave Zero works well, on the personal life. I follow attentively astrology and I know it is a sort of psychology. It just describes people and it describes them well, also the non believers can say that.
I can say that I follow sidereal astrology and in this week alone, Chiron, Saturn and Uranus will change signs, and Jupiter will go retrograde.
This is what would happen on normal astrology on August 11, near that day there is the change of sign of Uranus and its of course a new moon.
And is also the point of 30 days mark when sometimes the changes that didn't occur on the last eclipse occur on that day.
So, yes, astrologically August 11-13 are big days.

I also say, that bigger the novelty dip, bigger is the concentration and focus and emotion involved in the situations in my ( and I suppose your )life.
So, I expect that what came to me as a news on July 14, that with average mistake would represent in some way, August 11 novelty, well, it may become a huge focus or not, next fall.
I suppose that around mid- October to mid- January 2011 we will be completely and totally focused on some huge huge issues in our lives.
We can't prepare now because they will show up in that period.

I have been working with the online twz and stellarium to try and put together a some ideas of how the stars match up with the twz. I personally think that astrology and the twz are very close to each other and may help decipher the cycles of events. this is just my own personal 2 cents I do not want to derail the work you everyone is doing. still interesting to follow.