The Anti-Christ and His New World Order Revealed

reply to post by Psychonaughty


Blah blah blah. What a load of crap you just spewed.

reply to post by Bombeni


So narrow minded.

"The Anti-Christ revealed", and most of you barely think of any other philosophy, other than a book that's preached for authenticity.

reply to post by Psychonaughty


That is the problem. Philosophy.

The OP spelled out The Book in plain terms. You are going off on a tangent that

1.) is not supported by the Bible

2.) is not related to the original topic

Originally posted by moocowman

So, you disagree with this statement ? yes or no -

If god is the creator of all that there is (omniscient/omipresent) there cannot be anything that is not created by the creator.

As it stand alone, no, it can't be logically disagreed with.

It did not stand alone, and is not valid as support for the inconsitencies and logical fallacies contained in the rest of the post.

So why isolate one statement in order to try supporting an unsupportable position?

reply to post by Bombeni

Hey xcowman, yeah you: I noticed your signature: you don't hate Christians, you just hate what they do. Tell us, what is it they do that you hate? Is it the thousands of charities and missions they fund and have funded for centuries?

Are you trying to claim only xtians do charitable things ?

"People " do charitable things, some happen to be xtian, xtianity requires the xtian to do charitable things in order to gain favour with a sky god.

Nevertheless, the volume of charitable deeds you attribute to xtians could easily be balanced out or negated by the appalling uncharitable atrocities that xtians have committed.

Yup I do hate the things xtians do (the first reference to the source of hate being the yahwehjesus god ironically) xtians lie to children, well I hate that.

Xtians abuse children, it's fair to say I hate that, but I don't hate the xtian just the act.

reply to post by helen670

It may be an ERROR on YOUR parts of translations and talks! BUT the New Testament is TRUTH and it always spoke the TRUTH,It is, as it was... 616..what a joke! It isn't written in NUMBERS in the New Testament,so WHOEVER said such LIES of it being 616 it outdated by far.................And the TRUTH indeed shall set you free! The Greek as it was written, IS in Letters! it is the Alphabet.....καὶ ἵνα μή τις δύνηται ἀγοράσαι ἢ πωλῆσαι εἰ μὴ ὁ ἔχων τὸ χάραγμα, τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θηρίου ἢ τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ. 18 Ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν· ὁ ἔχων νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου· ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστί· καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ...

The newest volume of Oxyrhynchus Papyri contains a fragmentary papyrus of Revelation which is the earliest known witness to some sections (late third / early fourth century). A detailed discussion of its place in the MS tradition is given in the printed volume.

One feature of particular interest is the number that this papyrus assigns to the Beast: 616, rather than the usual 666. (665 is also found.) We knew that this variant existed: Irenaeus cites (and refutes) it. But this is the earliest instance that has so far been found. The number — chi, iota, stigma (hexakosiai deka hex) — is in the third line of the fragment .

reply to post by nenothtu




Originally posted by moocowman

So, you disagree with this statement ? yes or no -

If god is the creator of all that there is (omniscient/omipresent) there cannot be anything that is not created by the creator.

As it stand alone, no, it can't be logically disagreed with. It did not stand alone, and is not valid as support for the inconsitencies and logical fallacies contained in the rest of the post. So why isolate one statement in order to try supporting an unsupportable position?

What difference does stand alone make,?

It was claimed that I act against the will of a sky god jesusyahweh, if yahwehjesus is the creator of all that there is then I cannot act against it's will as its' will is all that there is.

For the sky god to punish me for acting against its will implies that there is something other than its will which inturn implies the sky god is not the creator of all that there is.

The created cannot function in a manner contrary to it's design if its' creator is to remain all that there is.

Originally posted by moocowman


What difference does stand alone make,?

It was claimed that I act against the will of a sky god jesusyahweh, if yahwehjesus is the creator of all that there is then I cannot act against it's will as its' will is all that there is.

For the sky god to punish me for acting against its will implies that there is something other than its will which inturn implies the sky god is not the creator of all that there is.

The created cannot function in a manner contrary to it's design if its' creator is to remain all that there is.

See, THAT'S where your "logic" falls apart. I don't know if you act against God's will or not. I don't write policy for God. For all I know, your recalcitrance may be EXACTLY in accordance with his will.

The "logic" falls apart when you try to link the activity of what is created with the intent of the creator. Two entirely different things. Who said God's will was all there is? Could be he created something else too, like, oh, for example, a planet called "Earth". That would be a separate "thing" from God's will. I can 'create' two different things, and surprise of surprises, they are not the same 'thing'.

To imply that humans CANNOT act against God's will is to imply that they have no wills of their own, making far less of them than mere automatons, and making far MORE of God than an iron-fisted despot. There are citizens even in totalitarian countries that act decidedly against the will of the government. Maybe those governments could take some lessons from your god on how to keep folks in line.

I had a car once that was created by some guys in Detroit. It didn't always act according to it's design, so I got rid of it. Of course it's creators didn't remain 'all that there was'. They had to go and create that pesky car too.

In the matter of deity, omniscience doesn't automatically FORCE action on that knowledge. Omnipotence doesn't automatically FORCE the exercise of that power ( if one could be forced into using one's power, one wouldn't be omnipotent, now would he?). Omnipresence doesn't automatically FORCE the revelation of the presence.

Those qualities and actions aren't automatic linkages like that.

So, to sum it up, to put out an entire string of false statements, constructing ONE so as to be unassailable, Then pulling that ONE out of context in order to try to support the rest, DOES NOT logically support them in reality.

THAT'S what difference "stand alone" makes.



[edit on 2009/6/24 by nenothtu]

reply to post by nenothtu


So were apart from a creator, rather than being of a creator?
Existance is one singular mechanism in my opinion.

reply to post by nenothtu

Who said God's will was all there is?

Erm, you did, -

Originally posted by moocowman

So, you disagree with this statement ? yes or no -

If god is the creator of all that there is (omniscient/omipresent) there cannot be anything that is not created by the creator.

As it stand alone, no, it can't be logically disagreed with.

Could be he created something else too,

Well there appears to be no "could be about it" for the sky god to remain omniscient/omnipresent creating all that there is/was and whatever will be is an absolute.

So if there's nothing that is not created by god then everything remains gods will.

If the sky god only created motor cars then motor cars could not do what they were not designed to do.

Automobile manufacturers are not claimed to be omniscient, the yahwehjeses sky god is claimed to be so. In order for it to remain so there cannot be an outcome that is not aware of. If there was/is or will be, an outcome it is not or will be aware of then it surely cannot be the creator of the outcome this would negate his/it's omnipresence.


An omnipresent being cannot be unaware of any event or outcome as it is the source of all events or outcomes, the prime mover the first cause.

For any outcome to spontaneously occur, as in the example of a contrary motor vehicle , without the creator being the source of the occurrence, is no different to the spontaneity of the cosmic evolution theory.

If god is all that there is then there is nothing that is not the will of god.

This would require walt to pretend he had nothing to do with Mickey taking a dump and then chastise Mickey for doing so.

If you can provide an hypothesis that would explain, the all that there is, not being responsible for that which it has or will create, (all that ther is/was or will be) just like the mouse, I'm all ears.

reply to post by nenothtu

See, THAT'S where your "logic" falls apart. I don't know if you act against God's will or not. I don't write policy for God. For all I know, your recalcitrance may be EXACTLY in accordance with his will.

So if my recalcitrance (nice word your english is so much better than my own) is possibly exactly according to the will of god. Then it would be insane to condemn me for being this way I am what I am created to be. And as the creator is all that there is and is all actions then my actions are no my own.
My recalcitrance is my creator, the all that there is, in action.

So when it comes to punishment for recalcitrance, then the creator (the all that there is) is but punishing itself as it is the source of recalcitrance, not unlike Walt with Mickey taking a dump.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Who said God's will was all there is?

Erm, you did, -

Originally posted by moocowman

So, you disagree with this statement ? yes or no -

If god is the creator of all that there is (omniscient/omipresent) there cannot be anything that is not created by the creator.

As it stand alone, no, it can't be logically disagreed with.

When you get around to showing me where I said that God's will is all there is, I'll answer the rest of your post.

The above doesn't cut it, because

A) it's your thought, not mine, and

B) That big little IF in your quote makes all the difference in the world, and

C) The will of the creator can't be confused with the object(s) created. Generally, "will" and "objects" or "creations" are of completely different substances, even.

And

D) The "will" of a Creator should not be confused with the Creator itself. For example, I have a will, but my will is not "me", and I am alleged to have been made in the image of the Creator, so it's likely the Creator is set up pretty much that way.

You appear to have difficulty in separating the concepts of "will", "the Creator", "the created", and tend to lump them all together into the same thing, which is a notion I reject on the face of it.

Nice try, but no cigar.

One error I made that should be pointed out, and which you have failed to do, is agreement with your statement:

"If god is the creator of all that there is (omniscient/omipresent) there cannot be anything that is not created by the creator. "

My error in agreement is this: omniscient (all knowing) and omnipresent (present everywhere) has nothing to do with the logic of "if X created everything, there cannot be anything not created by X". THAT can't be argued with. Tacking on the qualities of omniscience/omnipresent have nothing to do with the act of creation.

I have a novel idea: you could create a thread with a title something like "A creator can't create anything unless it knows everything", and drop a link on me, and we could continue this discussion there, and stop derailing THIS thread, the title of which is "The Anti-Christ and his New World Order Revealed", since this discussion appears to have little to do with that topic.



[edit on 2009/6/24 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by moocowman

So if my recalcitrance (nice word your english is so much better than my own) is possibly exactly according to the will of god. Then it would be insane to condemn me for being this way I am what I am created to be. And as the creator is all that there is and is all actions then my actions are no my own.
My recalcitrance is my creator, the all that there is, in action.

So when it comes to punishment for recalcitrance, then the creator (the all that there is) is but punishing itself as it is the source of recalcitrance, not unlike Walt with Mickey taking a dump.

A perfectly circular argument. You would blame God for your faults, because it's God's fault.

Not only eliminates your own responsibility, it also eliminates your own free will and freedom of action. You can try that argument on God when your time is up, but I don't think it will work.

Like I said before, lots of folks, even some christians, expect they can get to heaven on a technicality. To that I might add some folks think they can get there by pulling their own bootstraps too.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by helen670

 

It may be an ERROR on YOUR parts of translations and talks! BUT the New Testament is TRUTH and it always spoke the TRUTH,It is, as it was... 616..what a joke! It isn't written in NUMBERS in the New Testament,so WHOEVER said such LIES of it being 616 it outdated by far.................And the TRUTH indeed shall set you free! The Greek as it was written, IS in Letters! it is the Alphabet.....καὶ ἵνα μή τις δύνηται ἀγοράσαι ἢ πωλῆσαι εἰ μὴ ὁ ἔχων τὸ χάραγμα, τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ θηρίου ἢ τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ. 18 Ὧδε ἡ σοφία ἐστίν· ὁ ἔχων νοῦν ψηφισάτω τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦ θηρίου· ἀριθμὸς γὰρ ἀνθρώπου ἐστί· καὶ ὁ ἀριθμὸς αὐτοῦ...

The newest volume of Oxyrhynchus Papyri contains a fragmentary papyrus of Revelation which is the earliest known witness to some sections (late third / early fourth century). A detailed discussion of its place in the MS tradition is given in the printed volume.

One feature of particular interest is the number that this papyrus assigns to the Beast: 616, rather than the usual 666. (665 is also found.) We knew that this variant existed: Irenaeus cites (and refutes) it. But this is the earliest instance that has so far been found. The number — chi, iota, stigma (hexakosiai deka hex) — is in the third line of the fragment .

Hi/

Again YOU are WRONG!
It is 666 and the reason it is that you are WRONG ,is because it FITS in perfectly with the Old Testament ....Did you think of that?
You Ask?
''Where does it fit in with the Old Testament''(TORAH)?
Ill let YOU find it...and see what you have to say about it!
IT so seems that you seem to FIND your Quotes and Scriptures so well...
You may be BIG in your world,
But God the Lord Jesus Christ is greater and much Wiser then YOUR God.

ICXN
helen

''If the world hate you,
ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world,
the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world,
but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you."

reply to post by helen670

But God the Lord Jesus Christ is greater and much Wiser then YOUR God.

Would this be the god that your yahwehjesus god is so jealous of and have me killed for acknowledging ?

Well as I'm not dead, then my god is clearly greater than your god as your jealous god has failed to have me killed, for not worshiping it.

Nevertheless, my god is a compassionate god and fully understands how you can accept your impostor god .


What you have to understand is that my god created everything that there is, was or ever will be, and also created your god.


Consider this, jealousy within relationships, is one of the first signs of insecurity. Your sky god is very insecure, the reason why ? Because it knows that it is inferior to my god, this is why your god has temper tantrums, it is a self admitted insecure baby god.


You sky god or perhaps more correctly "mountain god" (lord of the mountain) is but the invention of the human imagination. An imaginary being found on a mountain top that exists nowhere else other than in a book or more aptly, the minds of those that accept this errant book as truth .

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by helen670

 

But God the Lord Jesus Christ is greater and much Wiser then YOUR God.

Would this be the god that your yahwehjesus god is so jealous of and have me killed for acknowledging ?

Well as I'm not dead, then my god is clearly greater than your god as your jealous god has failed to have me killed, for not worshiping it.

Nevertheless, my god is a compassionate god and fully understands how you can accept your impostor god .


What you have to understand is that my god created everything that there is, was or ever will be, and also created your god.


Consider this, jealousy within relationships, is one of the first signs of insecurity. Your sky god is very insecure, the reason why ? Because it knows that it is inferior to my god, this is why your god has temper tantrums, it is a self admitted insecure baby god.


You sky god or perhaps more correctly "mountain god" (lord of the mountain) is but the invention of the human imagination. An imaginary being found on a mountain top that exists nowhere else other than in a book or more aptly, the minds of those that accept this errant book as truth .

Hi/

But MY God is the Creater Of all!
He is what created all that is Good!
I wont go into Scripture since you dont belive in Scripture,but you quote Scripture,(Unknown that is )YET, you failed to answer that it is Written as 666 NOT 616?

Today Gospel readings///....Romans 8:22-27
For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.
Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Amen.

Matthew 10:23-31
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.
It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!
Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.
Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Ο ΘΕΟΣ, ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου σῶσόν με καὶ ἐν τῇ δυνάμει σου κρῖνόν με. 4 ὁ Θεός, εἰσάκουσον τῆς προσευχῆς μου, ἐνώτισαι τὰ ρήματα τοῦ στόματός μου. 5 ὅτι ἀλλότριοι ἐπανέστησαν ἐπ᾿ ἐμὲ καὶ κραταιοὶ ἐζήτησαν τὴν ψυχήν μου καὶ οὐ προέθεντο τὸν Θεὸν ἐνώπιον αὐτῶν. (διάψαλμα). ἰδοὺ γὰρ ὁ Θεὸς βοηθεῖ μοι, καὶ ὁ Κύριος ἀντιλήπτωρ τῆς ψυχῆς μου. 7 ἀποστρέψει τὰ κακὰ τοῖς ἐχθροῖς μου· ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ σου ἐξολόθρευσον αὐτούς. 8 ἑκουσίως θύσω σοι, ἐξομολογήσομαι τῷ ὀνόματί σου, Κύριε, ὅτι ἀγαθόν· 9 ὅτι ἐκ πάσης θλίψεως ἐρρύσω με, καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἐχθροῖς μου ἐπεῖδεν.

ICXN
helen

reply to post by nenothtu

A perfectly circular argument. You would blame God for your faults, because it's God's fault.

Well, circular reasoning being the order of the day when it comes to the xtian cult then this should be of little challenge.

I don't blame anything, to blame would be to deny accountability, I am indeed accountable for that which goes forth before me, according to my own paradigm.

However if it is claimed that I am created in the image of something, according to the will (desire, intention) of that something. How is it possible that I could operate contrary to the will (desire, intention) of that which is alleged to have created me, If that which has created me is the creator of all that there is, which is inclusive of intent itself ?

If we are to conclude that the creator is all that there is, and the creator was not created by something other than itself. Then the creator is by definition the source of all that there is and therefore the source of will (desire,intent).. If the creator is the source of all that there is then there can be nothing that is not of the source, in a nutshell the will of the creator is all that there is.

Unless of course, there is something that the all that there is, is not, which would obviously imply, that the all that there is, is not in fact all that there is, and has logically not created all that there is.

So how is it possible that I could act contrary to how I was designed ? Being eligible for punishment by my creator for actually doing this, logically implies that it is possible. However my intent requires a source as intent itself is part of creation and cannot be separate from creation, unless of course there is something or somewhere other than creation, this obviously implies the creator is not the creator of all that there is, if the source of my intent lays elsewhere.

If however it is implied that the source of my intent is myself then this would imply that I am in someway separate from creation and that which is alleged to have created me . Fair enough but this takes us back to the circular, creator not creating all that there is, and more or less being a co-creator.

This co-creator paradigm is all well and good but we would then need to ascertain, what the co-creator is and what is its' source and relationship to the jesusyahwhe creator.

Originally posted by helen670


Ο ΘΕΟΣ, ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου σῶσόν με καὶ ἐν τῇ δυνάμει σου κρῖνόν με. 4 ὁ Θεός, εἰσάκουσον τῆς προσευχῆς μου, ἐνώτισαι τὰ ρήματα τοῦ στόματός μου. 5 ὅτι ἀλλότριοι ἐπανέστησαν ἐπ᾿ ἐμὲ καὶ κραταιοὶ ἐζήτησαν τὴν ψυχήν μου καὶ οὐ προέθεντο τὸν Θεὸν ἐνώπιον αὐτῶν. (διάψαλμα). ἰδοὺ γὰρ ὁ Θεὸς βοηθεῖ μοι, καὶ ὁ Κύριος ἀντιλήπτωρ τῆς ψυχῆς μου. 7 ἀποστρέψει τὰ κακὰ τοῖς ἐχθροῖς μου· ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ σου ἐξολόθρευσον αὐτούς. 8 ἑκουσίως θύσω σοι, ἐξομολογήσομαι τῷ ὀνόματί σου, Κύριε, ὅτι ἀγαθόν· 9 ὅτι ἐκ πάσης θλίψεως ἐρρύσω με, καὶ ἐν τοῖς ἐχθροῖς μου ἐπεῖδεν.

ICXN
helen

Wow... That's all Greek to me.

Seriously though... What's a good translation program for Koine Greek?

Sarge? Little help here...

By the way... I noticed "moocow man" DOES acknowledge the presence in his life of God.

So what's the arguement for, moocow???

The topic is "The Anti-Christ and His New World Order Revealed". Would it make you "feel" better if "According to the Word of God as Written in the Holy Bible." were added to the thread title???

I just thought that once you read the OP, you understood the thread topic...

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by Bombeni

 

Hey xcowman, yeah you: I noticed your signature: you don't hate Christians, you just hate what they do. Tell us, what is it they do that you hate? Is it the thousands of charities and missions they fund and have funded for centuries?

Are you trying to claim only xtians do charitable things ?

"People " do charitable things, some happen to be xtian, xtianity requires the xtian to do charitable things in order to gain favour with a sky god.

Nevertheless, Yup I do hate the things xtians do (the first reference to the source of hate being the yahwehjesus god ironically) xtians lie to children, well I hate that.

Xtians abuse children, it's fair to say I hate that, but I don't hate the xtian just the act.

Pathetic, that is all I can say. If you have a spirit of hate in you why not JUST GO WITH IT. Quit with the lies and excuses.

You say "the volume of charitable deeds you attribute to Christians could easily be balanced out or negated by the appalling uncharitable atrocities that xtians have committed" --- well that is about at least 2 tons of excrement you managed to release, you have your buddy above beat I'd say. I bet you feel like a million bucks now. You have the sheer audacity to compare the hundreds of millions of untold acts of mercy on the sick, the poor, the downtrodden, with the atrocities committed by people who did it in the GUISE of Chrisitanity? In my opinion, YOU carry the very same spirit that ate them up with evil. You blab on about some incidents in history which we all know were not done by true Christians, as though we need to actually be leary of Christians? YOU are the one I would hate to meet in a dark alley. Just the facade of you carries a dark and menacing force, I couldn't imagine coming upon the real you, I hope it never happens. Although the day is coming when you'd give your right arm to be in the company of a Christian.




[edit on 25-6-2009 by Bombeni]

reply to post by Psychonaughty


"Philosophy" did not heal me and save my life, eventhough I had a very classical education at the hands of the Jesuits, the Word of God did. I consider what works and continues to work. All those who taught "philosophy" are still in their graves, Jesus has risen, and He is Lord.

[edit on 6/25/2009 by SGTChas]