ABUSE CRISIS: Iraqi Prisoner Abuse May Have Been Encouraged. (update)

Originally posted by energy_wave
Here is a link to some photo's. Not good!

www.albasrah.net...

There really should be a graphic content warning for the above page link.

It contains images of graphic sexual content and RAPE of what seems to be Iraqi women and US or UK troops... My god .. I am going to be sick now.

bye

Gazz

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by UM_Gazz]

Originally posted by energy_wave
Here is a link to some photo's. Not good!

www.albasrah.net...

If these pictures are true, than Not good! will be AN UNDERSTATEMENT!

I hope for the coalition that these pictures havn't already hit Iraq's streets and never will. These hopes are of course probably unrealistic. These are intolerable insults to any nation's people. Resistance will blow up if these kind of disgusting issues are going to continue to appear.

**Mod edit: let's not post such graphic images directly onto ATS, please.**

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by Banshee]

Sorry Banshee, I agree.
As I said under the images, I felt sick, just by looking at those pictures.

(I posted them as at other events, pictures of extreme graphic nature, were not removed. I must add, that those pictures I am speaking about, didn't involve anything of a sexual matter. My post was purely ment to be of informative nature, but as I said, I agree, this went too far.)

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by Hoaks]

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by Hoaks]

Originally posted by Hoaks
Sorry Banshee, I agree.
As I said under the images, I felt sick, just by looking at those pictures.
(I posted them as at other events, pictures of extreme graphic nature, were not removed. I must add, that those pictures I am speaking about, didn't involve anything of a sexual matter. My post was purely ment to be of informative nature, but as I said, I agree, this went too far.)

I agree Hoaks, the pictures are deplorable and make me want to go cry for a week.

I think perhaps you mistakenly posted one of the .... erm ... sexual ones instead of the others. While the photos are important as a current point of discussion, for the sake of the younger and/or more sensitive members, it's best those are just linked with a warning about graphic content.

Yes, it is sickening. You're quite right.

-B.

This was on '60 Minutes II' last week

www.cbsnews.com...

I didn't look at the link of the pics because I'll get sick. And although 60 Minutes showed some of the pics, I didn't see any that made me want to vomit.

Hi MessedUpAnnie,
Welcome back! I looked at the link. What a waste of time. You have to remember, this is Dan Rather (than tell the truth) and CBS. I'm sorry, if he, or CBS, did manage to come out with something credible, I don't know what I'd do! The fact is, there may have been abuse of prisoners. AND, THAT WAS WRONG AND SHOULD BE PROSECUTED TO THE N'TH DEGREE. However, just because CBS says it's so doesn't make it so, not by a long shot. And besides, I don't like Bush!

Hi CommonSense. Thanks for the nice welcome back

When it comes to media, why are you so biased? Don't you think that all American media is being controlled? I'm sure that's probably why the pics on 60 Minutes were the tame ones .. don't want to panic the nation now do we?

And I hate Bush too

In reply to Usagi-chan: I understand your simplistic moral code. Clothing it with an intellectual veneer of historical analysis does not lend it validity. Given that you believe the iron fist is the only code that matters, is it fair to say that you also condone what Pol Pot did to his people? America will not forever be the pre-eminent power in the world. At the rate the Chinese are growing, they will soon overtake us. Do you also support any future Chinese attempts to grind us into dust? It seems you have to since you believe that might is the only principle worth following. The problem with your position is that it is no position at all. It is little more than situational ethics, rule by the thug with the biggest muscle at the particular moment. BTW, how about answering my questions, or shall we take your silence as a "yes"?

Command Errors Aided Iraq Abuse, Army Has Found New York Times By JAMES RISEN n internal Army investigation has found that key military intelligence officers and civilian employees may have spurred acts of abuse and humiliation by American enlisted personnel against Iraqi detainees at an overcrowded prison outside Baghdad. A report on the investigation, seen yesterday by The New York Times, as well as other documents seen by The Times, also reveal a much broader pattern of command failures than initially acknowledged by the Pentagon and the Bush administration in responding to outrage over the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison. Officials said yesterday that the Army had opened two new investigations into the abuse allegations. One inquiry just under way by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, the incoming deputy commander of Army intelligence, is examining the interrogation practices of military intelligence officers at all American-run prisons in Iraq and not just the Abu Ghraib prison 20 miles west of Baghdad, where the worst abuses occurred.

"Those soldiers who "tortured" Iraqis should be praised not disclipined. One should not expect the Iraqis to obey us as occupiers unless they fear us, and right now I don't see much reason for them to fear us. If they knew they would be humiliated and tortured if captured, it might help with the security situation."

Adolf,
Thanks for contributing. Go back to hell.

phaedrus

Thanks for the update SO, kinda figured the reservist were following orders...

Now as far as the "Not so good" pics go, the bottom ones that were emailed in...guess what...that is taken from a porn video, the US and UK soldiers did not commit those crimes...

So say what you want I've got the link, if the MODs want it one of them just U2U me...

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Yoda]

Originally posted by Yoda
Now as far as the "Not so good" pics go, the bottom ones that were emailed in...guess what...that is taken from a porn video, the US and UK soldiers did not commit those crimes...

So say what you want I've got the link, if the MODs want it one of them just U2U me...

Having spoken with Yoda via U2U about this.....

The "rape" scenes depicted on that site are fake.
Those photos were NOT taken in Iraq and DO NOT depict Coalition soliders.

I repeat, the photos depicting sexual acts on the link energy_wave provided are not legitimate, rather are from "adult" websites.

-B.

Ok, I've edited out part of these photos so as not to offend anyone. However I must show some of the photo to get my point across.

Now, this may have nothing to do with any of the others but at least this photo looks fake to me. Or that something was added into it. Notice the Shadow around the goofy 'Thumbs up' person. It doesn't look right for a few reasons.

One, it is very sharp and very close to the body with no gradient at all.

Also it's perfectly uniform as it goes around the body. Another thing, is there is NO SHADOW around the 'Shoulder & Armpit Area' of the persons Left arm. The same with the Left Leg. Shouldn't there be a shadow against the persons body as well and not just 'behind' them.

Again, the 'shadow' that is behind them is supposed to be on the wall. However, they would practically have to be a cardboard cutout placed just inches from that wall to produce such a dark and sharp shadow such as that.

Unless of course someone simply Added that person in later and applied the typical Photoshop Type 'Drop Shadow' on that layer.

Notice the Shadow Lines which I've enlarged.



Again here is what I mean by a 'Drop Shadow'. Keep in mind that I did this in a few minutes and without trying to be convincing. With a little time and the right pictures to choose from, you could easily add in all kinds of things and make them look like they belong.



What do you people think? Do you see what I'm seeing here??

EDIT: BTW, for those who haven't seen the other photos. I added in everything to the left of that 'Censored' Box. Including the wall wich is behind that woman with the flashing shadow. The original photo is below to show where I cut her out of. You can see once again how quick and careless I was being too, by the fact that I even cut off the tip of her nose!! Imagine what is possible when you actually take your time!!



[Edited on 3-5-2004 by mOjOm]

[Edited on 3-5-2004 by mOjOm]

This is not the way most soldiers are, and its not an acceptable way of behaving for any soldier. People always make stereotypes of a bunch of perverts which make up a small percentage of the U.S forces. You will always find people who act like this in all forms of military and all walks of life.

Those soldiers who did this, if it was soldiers and not a fake, even if they were encouraged by a commander, should be put in prison if not shot for these war crimes. Be sure they will be dealt with accordingly.

Whatever man and woman is capable of raping and molesting others in this manner is not a human being, and whoever accepts this type of behaviour is not too far off in becoming like them imo.


[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Muaddib]

In my opinion people are only outraged becuase these photos have been released to the public... Torture and humiliation have always been an option for the US military. in fact ALL nations when given the opportunity to deal with "the enemy" whether foreign or homegrown use such methods in secrecy. It would seem to me that it is human nature for those who have power to abuse it by subjagating "the captured"...

The very concept of a superpower nation is built on the notion of having the capability of destroying its adversaries...

As evidence, a good number of americans will readily suggest "nuking" the enemy... you only suggest it becuase you believe you have the power to do so... However if the US were to "NUKE" all of its enemys the earth would be unihabitable for humans, that would include US citizens.

So obviously "Nuking" your enemies is not the best option... The end result is then "good ol fashion" war fair. However, americans don't have the will to fight traditional wars... I cite the reliance on "air power" as evidence... Any logical person knows you cannot subdue a country of 27mil people with 150K... Unless you have placed an unrealistic dependecy on your so-called "millitary upper hand"... Unfortunately you have underestimated the power of the AK47, a few shoulder fire missles, resistance to occupation, and most of all media images...

Additionally, you have let your nationalistic pride cloud your thinking...Now don't get me wrong, I think Arabs are generally nasty people and derserve much of what they get. But I also think this notion of fighting for freedom is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time... nobody accept your own government wants to take your freedom...the last time I checked laws passed whether good or bad did not originate from politicians in Iraq, Iran, or anywhere but Washington D.C. So you should be fighting Congress......

When you use a flash to take photos, as you would in a dark dank smelly dungeon, it creates flash shadows around the person. For this reason they can look "cut out." Pretty any technical analysis of the photo is useless because its so poorly encoded.

I think the most telling thing is that several soliders have been court martialled.

Dubiousone said:
"Do you also support any future Chinese attempts to grind us into dust? It seems you have to since you believe that might is the only principle worth following." BTW, how about answering my questions, or shall we take your silence as a "yes"?"

You are quite right in the point you raise about China. To the extent that it is evident that long term Chinese intents are to challenge us strategically, then I would wholeheartedly endorse any effort to manufacture conflict with China which would lead to us fighting them while the advantages are disproportionately on our side (e.g. we could "encourage" the Taiwanese to declare independence and I salivate when I think of the damage which could be inflicted by blowing up the Three Gorges Dam).

You still don't have it quite right. There are no principles except those things which people arbitrarily say are principles. So, at the end of the day, might is the only source of goodness, because those who have might can define "goodness."

If I remember correctly, your other questions regarded whether I was beaten as a child and where I was indoctrinated. Sorry to dissapoint you, but I had a rather normal uneventful childhood (and no beatings). My indoctrination (if you wish to call it that) may have something to do with living in San Francisco for the past nine years. The frustration of living amongst so much altruistic sentiment would be enough to cause Ayn Rand to pull her hair out.

Just on CNN, civilian contractors maybe involved...

company named:


They have a press release on their site: CACI States Position About Reported Allegations Concerning Employees in Iraq.





[Edited on 3-5-2004 by Hoaks]

Waaaaah! Our guys abused and humiliated Iraqi prisoners during interrogation. Waaaaah!

Put a sock in it crybabies. There's a lot worse going on in the world. Humiliation has always played a role in interrogation, and that includes sexually. Being a man in a country where women are 3rd class citizens, it would of course be uniquely degrading to be forced into compromising positions on the orders of a laughing American woman. Obviously, they're not going to go telling anyone what happened afterwards, and I could see where they'd be willing to spill the beans on pretty much anyone to avoid the situation.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that untrained reservists were put up to this by intel agencies. Clears them of the responsibility as well as provided some handy scapegoats. Textbook spook activity, really. Their biggest mistake was taking the pictures in the first place.

Were we blindfolding people and pushing them off buildings? No. Were we lining people up and summarily executing them? No. Years in a sweat box with only what bugs you can catch to eat? Huh-uh. Bamboo shoots under the toenails? Nada. Beating them with fan belts? Nope. Rounding up their whole families and incarcerating them from the youngest child to the oldest grandparent? No sirree Bob. Iron Maidens? Caustic chemical baths? Arm in a woodchipper? No, no, and no. Even at our worst, the humiliation brought by us pales in comparison with what our captured servicemen and women receive, as well as what many of these people have inflicted upon their own countrymen.

Yes, it's dehumanizing, degrading, and just plain disturbing. War is indeed hell. These people weren't a bunch of girl scouts they caught out selling cookies. I'd certainly rather have them being humiliated under watchful eyes then out on the streets popping RPG's at our men and women out there.

Where was the outrage when they hung flaming Americans from the bridge in Fallujah? Where was the outrage when our downed pilots were beaten, tortured, and never to be seen or heard from again? Where was the outrage when the car bomb incenerated several vanloads of schoolchildren? Where was the outrage when every man, woman, and toddling child in Halabja was gassed? Where was the outrage when Jane Fonda sentenced our POW's in Vietnam to death by her treasonous acitons? Where was the outrage when the Taliban were having executions in the soccer stadium?

It's all fine and good to fan the flames of scandal when we're caught doing something, but when everyone else commits acts that make these trivial in comaparison it is collectively ignored.

I don't approve of these acts, but I do understand them. While it is sickening, the bias in this persecution of all this sickens me even more. There are better things out there to get up in arms over. If the world wants to start acting like it gives a collective #, it needs to start looking at the bigger picture.

Originally posted by Q
If the world wants to start acting like it gives a collective #, it needs to start looking at the bigger picture.

Go on. What is that, and who painted it, and who bought it? Was it real or a fake?