ABUSE CRISIS: Iraqi Prisoner Abuse May Have Been Encouraged. (update)

Reports out of Iraq are indicating that the abuse of Iraqi prisoners may have been encouraged by military intelligence officers as a means for obtaining information from the prisoners. The Abu Ghraib prison where the abuse took place is under the control of military intelligence, and not the Army Reserve. Developing Story Command Errors Aided Iraq Abuse, Army Has Found New York Times By JAMES RISEN n internal Army investigation has found that key military intelligence officers and civilian employees may have spurred acts of abuse and humiliation by American enlisted personnel against Iraqi detainees at an overcrowded prison outside Baghdad. A report on the investigation, seen yesterday by The New York Times, as well as other documents seen by The Times, also reveal a much broader pattern of command failures than initially acknowledged by the Pentagon and the Bush administration in responding to outrage over the abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison. Officials said yesterday that the Army had opened two new investigations into the abuse allegations. One inquiry just under way by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, the incoming deputy commander of Army intelligence, is examining the interrogation practices of military intelligence officers at all American-run prisons in Iraq and not just the Abu Ghraib prison 20 miles west of Baghdad, where the worst abuses occurred. VOAnews.com Six reservist soldiers from General Karpinski's military police company face criminal charges in the military justice system, and more soldiers are expected to be charged. The general was formally admonished and suspended, then later transferred. A separate published report in the latest edition of the New Yorker Magazine says an internal army investigation concluded that U.S. intelligence officers and General Karpinski's soldiers were responsible for numerous instances of what it called "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at Abu Ghraib. Related News: Martialing Evidence All three papers lead with new revelations about what now appears to be the systematic torture of at least 20 Iraqi prisoners... Probe of prisoner abuse widens he deputy commander of the US Army's intelligence force is leading an investigation into interrogation practices at an Army-run prison... General suggests brutality encouraged The Army Reserve general whose brigade was photographed demeaning Iraqi prisoners said she thinks they were urged to do so by other military personnel... Iraqis demand abuse inquiry An Iraqi Governing Council member demanded Saturday that Iraqi authorities investigate reports that American guards abused inmates... Google News Search [Edited on 2-5-2004 by SkepticOverlord] [Edited on 5-5-2004 by Valhall] [Edited on 10-5-2004 by SkepticOverlord]

This is what I have been expecting all along.

I have been waiting for some kind of confirmation of it.

I posted in another thread that I believe this shows a lack of control at many levels within the ranks of the US military in Iraq.

The strict way the US military operates lead me to believe that this abuse was known to have been happening all along at many levels.

As far as I see it.. we will not ever be able to wipe this shame clean in Iraq.

It will continue to haunt US forces in the region until we are gone.

No matter how much the mainstream media tries to look the other way or cover this news up with the "good news" from Iraq... People of good nature on all sides will not forget what was done here.

You can think these abusers acted alone all you want... but remember they were in uniform and on duty!

Gazz

I will be extremely dissappointed if this type of behaviour is encouraged by military commanders. While we try to represent to the world that we're taking the high road, the photos show otherwise. How can we expect the world to view our actions as credible with crap like this. If we can't live up to the high road, we have no business being in Iraq in the first place. For that matter, if if we do, what right do we have to be there?

Those soldiers who "tortured" Iraqis should be praised not disclipined. One should not expect the Iraqis to obey us as occupiers unless they fear us, and right now I don't see much reason for them to fear us. If they knew they would be humiliated and tortured if captured, it might help with the security situation. After all, Sadaam proved he could maintain order in Iraq, and one of his reliable tools was widespread torture and maiming of prisoners. We should not be afraid to use what works.

And many Americans still wonder why Arabs, Iraqis, Afghanis, and others in the third World distrust, and even worse, hate America and its citizens wherever they may be found. We don't practice what we preach! Our military and "intelligence" (oxymoron at its best) representatives spread hatred against America throughout the third world.

Will the vicitims of this abuse ever forget? Will their families, friends, and neighbors forget? What of all those in the world who are now reading about these atrocities in the mainstream press? Many will remember the atrocities of other conflicts that the U.S. intelligence and military were involved in.

Anyone who was not born yesterday,knows that this can only happen because it is the policy of those in our government who have the responsibility and power to direct how prisoners of war are treated. Where does the buck stop? Can you say "White House"?

It will be amusing to see what kind of lies, coverups, and scapegoats those who are responsible conjure up in the coming weeks and months.

We were shown that our government has a policy of mistreating captives when we witnessed the treatment of those held at Guantanomo (no, i'm not sure if that spelling is correct, nor do I care). The images of hooded prisoners, made to hold a squatting position for hours, with their hands tied behind their backs with plastic ties, are burned into the memories of millions. What kind of treatment is that if not torture? Oh, well, MI (read that "military insanity") says it's necessary to break down their resistance so they'll be more pliant in interrogation. I suggest you consider the history and purpose of torture when used as a tool for intelligence (information) gathering. Sorry folks, all the sorry euphemisms you can think of to justify this outrageous conduct do not change its character into something less than torture or into conduct that's acceptable in a civilized world. When the superpowers engage in this conduct, how do you expect the lesser powers to behave any better?

This country needs a house cleaning at the highest levels. G.W. Bush has shown himself to be an utter failure as a leader. This latest humiliation of what America claims to stand for (and what America actually stood for at its founding in the historically not so distant past) is just another glaring example of what's wrong at the highest levels of our government.

Usagi-chan wrote:
"Those soldiers who "tortured" Iraqis should be praised not disclipined. * * * We should not be afraid to use what works."

Wrong! We should live up to our professed standards or quit lying to the world and to our own citizens, such as you oh misguided one, about who we are.

With your attitude, and the conduct of those who committed, ordered, and authorized these atrocities, it's just a matter of time before the "U.S." begins to apply similar measures to citizens here in the homeland. Why does that word "homeland" sound so much like the language the communist Soviet Union used to use to describe itself? Remember, it was a country were the individual had no value except to extent that he or she served the interests of the state. Is that where America is heading, i.e. where we the people have value only to the extent that we serve the interests of the state (i.e. those who happen to hold positions of power and policy making?)

Think about it Usaga-chan. It's a small step from treatment of foreigners in this manner to similar treatment of dissenters at home.

Originally posted by usagi-chan
After all, Sadaam proved he could maintain order in Iraq.

We should not be afraid to use what works.

I can't believe what is in this post.

You actually think this is a good thing?

We should be like Saddam?

If there are many more people out there thinking like this we have already lost this war.

Where is the logic or reason in this kind of thinking... to say that this kind of abuse or torture is a good way to keep security in Iraq?

I would think that this kind of abuse and torture is the reason that many Iraqis want us out and are willing to fight us now...
and who would blame them?

I guess you think this is a good way to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people?

Yep those American and British troops are the good guys!

Just when I thought some could sink now lower the world finds a way to show us the animal that can exist inside so many humans.

Maybe you are right.. Iraq may have been better off with Saddam.

please.. get a grip!

Gazz

torture isnt the answer there are many other ways to split a coconut then to smash it with a hammer.

Um Gazz wrote:
"the world finds a way to show us the animal that can exist inside so many humans."

Animals do not behave this way. As humans, we should at least live up to the standards of animals!

UM_Gazz, your take on these atrocities is encouraging. I hope there are many more with your attitude than that of Usagi-Chan.

This is a postscript to my preceding post.

Isn't it ironic that the U.S. is caught behaving this way when, after the WMD excuse for invading Iraq has been exposed as a lie, the current excuse for invasion is the successful removal of the human rights abuser and torturer Saddam Hussein. Now, it turns out, we are just like him. Our military and MI treats anyone it wishes in the same way that Saddam treated his countrymen! Yes, anyone it wishes. All it takes to end up on the wrong end of MI mistreatement is suspicion! Shame on anyone who condones that conduct. We are blessed indeed if shame is the only consequence we suffer for it.

Does any one know of the exact date ( or somewhere there about ) that these pictures were taken ?

What I'm curious about, were they taken pre Saddam or post Saddam capture...

Yoda asks when these pisture were taken, pre- or post- capture of Saddam Hussein.

Does it matter? Are you saying that torture is justified if it's committed before we achieve an objective? If I recall the news stories at the time Saddam's capture was reported, Saddam was captured because an informant disclosed his location, not because MI tortured someone into screaming his name in the throes of agony. Of course, that Saddam was found through an informant rather than through torture of one or many Iraqis may be yet another MI lie. So, who knows? We'll likely never be told the truth about that. You know, it's necessary to sustain many lies for the sake of "National Security", i.e. to cover the asses of the liars, abusers, and torturers among us.

Isn't it time we take the high road in the world and at home for once. We need leaders who aren't afraid to lead with integrity. We haven't had such leaders since I was in the eighth grade or before. (1963) Even then they were scarce.

Machiavelli argued that a Prince may obtain obedience from his subjects through fear or love, but fear is the more reliable motive. I would be pleased if some of the more fearsome tactics were applied to dissenters at home. We would all be better off if the rable of pierced, tatooed, miscreants who typically "dissent" in this society were expunged through force.

Alas, it will never happen. Too many people care too much about "values." Bush and Rummy have proved they don't have the stomach to do what is necessary in Iraq. The best way to bring the insurrection to an abrupt end would be to declare all persons in Fallujah as enemy combatants as of a certaiin time and date, and then carpet bomb the city until every man, woman and child was dead. That would set an example so terrible that the lesson would not be lost on others in Iraq. The only way to defeat our enemies is to be more ruthless and cruel than even they can imagine.

Well...

If I recall, the informant was "interogated" to disclose the location of Saddam, and what I was wandering was, are these the tactics that were used to " interogate"...

But...

From What I could find it looks like it may have been pre capture...

[QUOTE]

The Army investigation confirmed that reservists at Abu Ghraib had not been trained in Geneva Convention rules.

The military police officers have been charged by the US Army with crimes ranging from assault and maltreatment to indecent acts against prisoners.

The soldiers in question reportedly were assisting interrogators from US intelligence agencies.

Last month, when the six military police officers were charged, an Army spokesman said the alleged crimes involved fewer than 20 prisoners and happened around November and December.

[/QUOTE]

news.bbc.co.uk...

Now...in no way do I condone these actions, but if this report is true, then these reservists are quite possibly being railroaded...

Usagi-chan-Hitler-Goebbells-Mussellini-Stalin-Lenin-Mao-Machiavelii says: "The only way to defeat our enemies is to be more ruthless and cruel than even they can imagine."

Where were you indoctrinated, oh lover of hate? Your philosophy will work for you until those in power adopt a viewpoint contrary to yours. Then you will be the dissenter, the holder of subversive opinions, the enemy of those who hold power. Then you will be viewed as among those who can be justifiably snuffed out like insects for their dissent.

Did your parents beat you or otherwise abuse you when you were a child? That question is not intended as an insult. Those who are as eager as you to denigrate, shame, abuse, physically harm, and even exterminate other innocent humans were usually themselves the vicitms of abuse in their early childhood. Go get some therapy. You need it badly.

Isn't it interesting how our popular press and our government refers to Iraqis who resist our presence in their country as the "insurgents"? (yes, Iraq is still THEIR country. It hasn't been made a U.S. possession yet). The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language defines "insurgent" as follows: (1) Rising in revolt against established authority, especially a government. (2) Rebelling against the leadership of a political party. We are not the established authority in Iraq. Let's quit torturing the English language. Let's quit using labels that don't apply. Let's not accept our (mis) leaders' misues of our language. If we begin using our language properly we have a chance of understanding what's really going on in the world. Propagandists misuse language, misapply labels, lie about what's happening, knowing that the average citizen is too unaware or too lazy to recognize when they are being sold a lie and that they are too much in awe of authority to question what they are being told. You, Usagi-chan, are one such puppet. Sadly, your blindness infects others, and theirs others, and so on. Wake up!

What's even worse is that one of the US soldiers photographed was a woman! Our America has sunk to new lows. We should fly all American Flags at 1/3 staff to acknowledge our sympathy for the Iraqis subjected to that treatment and our shame that our troops acted in such an inhuman manner. Furthermore I too believe that all levels of command were fully cognizant of this activity, and "W" shopuld be impeached immediately!!
Better he should have been caught in flagrante dilecto with Condi Rice than bring dishonor on all of us.

The Observer - Shock new details of torture by US troops
Chilling new evidence of the torture and sexual abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers emerged last night in a secret report accusing the US army leadership of failings at the highest levels.

The 53-page report, obtained by New Yorker reporter Seymour Hersh, details how the US army abdicated responsibility for prisoners to military intelligence units and civilian contractors.

While Washington has tried to portray the scandal as an isolated incident, The Observer has also heard of complaints that torture was carried out at other US facilities including Camp Cropper, a holding area for detainees close to Baghdad's airport.

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by Hoaks]

Dubious one said:
"Where were you indoctrinated, oh lover of hate? Your philosophy will work for you until those in power adopt a viewpoint contrary to yours.
Did your parents beat you or otherwise abuse you when you were a child? That question is not intended as an insult. "

How typical to assign mental illness or need of therapy as a prescription for those of us who oppose the language and moral framework of the left. You might just as well have said I need to be re-educated. Your igorance of the historically frequent and effective application of genocide as a political/military tactic is not surprising given the content of your commentary.

Consider one historical example, Alexander the Great and his levelling of Thebes set the stage for political stability in the Greek homeland and enabled his infamous March to Persia. Putting Thebes to the sword was just as effective as dropping the bomb on Hiroshima. Vespasian's brutal campaign against the Jewish rebellion set the stage not only for a more peaceful period in the Roman occupation, but launched him into prominence as an imperial candidate. Josephus tells us that the Romans so devastated Jerusalem that it was hard to believe anyone ever lived there. Put aside your self-delusional ethical boundaries for moment and answer a question from a purely rational point of view: If a CNN reporter was walking through the dust and rubble of a defiant but utterly destroyed Fallujah, would that not have some impact on the will of the next town to resist? Even Saddam didn't have to be so brutal to maintain order, so what reason is there (other than delusional notions of ethical boundaries) we cannot achieve the same?

Personally, I think that people who delude themselves into thinking that their personal ethical preferences have some transcendent validity are those most disconnected from reality.

Could it be that some involved figured out that if they commited a crime such as this, that they would be taken out of Iraq and sent to safe old home?

I know it's kinda far fetched and the penalties would have been much less to simply go awol.
Go awol where tho?
Commit a crime like this and be brought home although in cuffs and facing prision, is still safer than being over there, atleast in certian places.

What I'm saying is, maybe, they wanted to get caught knowing that they MIGHT be able to blame it on higher ranking officers and get a punishment of something like a lesser charge and possible a dishonorable discharge. Either way, it would get them out of the battlefield.

If they were ordered to do this, and disobeyed an order to torture the Iraqis, then whats to say that the same people that sunk to the level of sub-humanity to do these things to another human being, would not do it to their own disident soldiers kill them and call them KIA? All to keep a lid on it. Makes half sence to me.
Afterall they did pose thumbs up for the camera.
Maybe they knew this was their ticket home.

Just a thought.
Baked

Here is a link to some photo's. Not good!

www.albasrah.net...

[Edited on 2-5-2004 by Banshee]