I Could Tell You But Then You Would Have to be Destroyed by Me: The Pentagon’s Black World

reply to post by zorgon


Can you please clarify what you're trying to insinuate here? Why are you launching personal attacks in an attempt to marginalize me? Everything I said was factual. The patches in this post are just patches. The OP's source is not reliable whatsoever.

I posted my old patch. If you were so inclined to actually find out, you could easily use a search engine to find out more. Rocket science this is not.

Why is it that you're more inclined to believe someone who has no military experience that is sharing information from a website without facts? Not to mention the OP is openly speculating themselves? All anyone here is doing is making stuff up out of nowhere and making connections where there are none. Instead of attacking someone that is bringing the knowledge, maybe you should verify what I've said.

It seems to me that some here would say my patch is blue, therefore I must have been in a submarine. Or that those troops could be aliens in the saucer-like beak of the pelican? What does a pelican symbolize? Could it be worship of an ancient god? No. Just simply, no.

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack
Everything I said was factual.

yet you have only your word, nothing to back up your 'facts' beyond your opinion

The patches in this post are just patches. The OP's source is not reliable whatsoever.

This thread has hundreds of patches, many form OFFICIAL sources. Yet you just pop in out of the blue and say its all hogwash... based on your say so

I posted my old patch. If you were so inclined to actually find out, you could easily use a search engine to find out more. Rocket science this is not.

No you posted A patch... you just claimed it was your old patch. Using google to find out would tell me what the patch is, NOT that it was yours or that you had and real involvement with that unit. Now if you had a picture of you wearing it on a uniform, we might get closer

A guy on ATS here is Army Counter Intelligence... he posted a patch for us...



So does that make him a member of the SG1 team?

Why is it that you're more inclined to believe someone who has no military experience that is sharing

Why do you assume she has no military experience or connections? Why would I believe you without any evidence whatsoever? Makes no sense at all

information from a website without facts?

Many of the patches have been vetted and sourced by other members, I suggest you actually read the thread

All anyone here is doing is making stuff up out of nowhere and making connections where there are none. Instead of attacking someone that is bringing the knowledge, maybe you should verify what I've said.

The only one I see making stuff up is you. It is not possible to verify your story because you have not given us anything to verify, just your word.

It seems to me that some here would say my patch is blue, therefore I must have been in a submarine. Or that those troops could be aliens in the saucer-like beak of the pelican? What does a pelican symbolize? Could it be worship of an ancient god? No. Just simply, no.

Well personally you seem to be on a 'mission' here As to a Pelican? Well in my circles the Order of the Pelican is as prestigious an award as Knighthood. The Pelican, because of its habit of caring for its young to the point of giving them her own blood, has long been used in Religious and Heraldic symbology.

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack
Yeah, wow. Too many patches to go over. You can obviously find mine and deduce I flew on C-5's

No what I can obviously deduce from that comment is
A) you probably only read page one..."too many patches to go over"...
B) that you want us to THINK that you flew C5's.. but cannot back it up.

It is easy for anyone to come in here and drop a patch and say it was mine... but its also easy to prove without violating any oaths. Military service records are public info

reply to post by zorgon


See it from my point of view. It would be such a nightmare to go through patch by patch to analyze each one when I already know what they are. This is not a matter of opinion. As I stated, what I posted was fact. It seems to me that people here are using one sight as a source and then making connections based on what they believe. Why not actually look up these patches and find official sources?

I understand your reluctance to believe me as there are far too many claiming to be what they're not. Not only on ATS but on other sites and information sources similar to this. I get it. I do not have many pictures from my time in the Air Force and even less in uniform. I do have one however and it does show my patch so I will indulge you. It also shows my name which I will edit out and post if that would so satisfy you. Being new to actually posting on here, can you direct me as to where to place this picture so that it can be viewed publicly?

There are many patches that are satirical in nature. This does not make them official by any means. Often times, members of a unit will make patches and wear them as a joke or even sell them to other squadron members. I'll see if I can upload an example. These are known as "morale patches."

Last: I am on no "mission" here. Just doing my part, using my knowledge, to help others Deny Ignorance. It's so incredibly absurd beyond belief that someone who knows for a fact what these are is being attacked while people continue to speculate with their tinfoil hats on. It's kinda of a crappy feeling you know?

ETA: This is an example of a morale patch. The one circulating around the flying squadrons on my base was essentially the same but in desert tan with the top rocker "Welcome to the stage, morale stops here." With the stage, meaning our staging area where we would fly missions into the AOR. As you can see, it's comical in nature and far from official. In fact, if you were caught wearing this anywhere but downrange (sometimes even there) you would be asked to remove it or possibly suffer punitive action. Like I said, far far from official.

reply to post by zorgon


Here we go. Does this satisfy you or will you continue on with your crusade in defense of ignorance. I am who I say I am. I know what I say I know. OP's source for the patches is loaded with fictitious information. I trust we can get back on topic after this...

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack
reply to post by burntheships

 

Damn. This thread has already garnered too much attention for me to make a meaningful impact.

Thats a dead giveaway to your intentions. Your continued efforts will only reflect upon you.

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack
reply to post by zorgon

 

Everything I said was factual.

Deny Ignorance, post sources. Thats right, we are not going to take your word for it.

The patches in this post are just patches. The OP's source is not reliable whatsoever.

Just one of the sources is Trevor Paglen, a well known and
respected, and published author.

Social scientist, artist, writer and provocateur, Paglen has been exploring the secret activities of the U.S. military and intelligence agencies--the "black world"--for the last eight years, publishing, speaking and making astonishing photographs.

Other sources are Space.com, BAE,
Aviation Week, numerous aerospace magazines, and shared personal
patches from other members. Your wrong, now proven wrong, and by several members.

Its againt the T&C of ATS to attempt personal attacks.

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack
reply to post by zorgon

 

I understand your reluctance to believe me as there are far too many claiming to be what they're not.

Yes, why would we believe you?

See it from my point of view. It would be such a nightmare to go through patch by patch to analyze each one when I already know what they are.

Ah yes, its the "i cant be bothered with facts" tactic... well you have done yourself in
with all of this ignorance. You now have zero credibility, and short of an apology,
your rude and ignorant behavior is what you will be known by.

edit on 29-7-2011 by burntheships because: (no reason given)

reply to post by burntheships


Your thinly veiled attempt at threats is laughable at best. My posts stand.
As well, your attempts to attack me rest upon your credibility as a member and from your threads I've seen, that's not much. Your pathetic assertions as to my credibility are baseless. It is not so simply because you say it is so. That's not the way this works.
So I verify one thing and you attack another? It's sources you want? Ok, let's play this game.

Trevor Paglen takes pictures and writes a blog. I'm talking about patches, not some guy's (pretty cool btw) pictures.

I only noticed one person who actually appeared to be in the military that posted a patch. Maybe you can consult him as well for guidance on these. He'll tell you the same story.


www.lakenheath.af.mil...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.specialoperations.com...

www.af.mil...

As for your links, they lead to nowhere. Did you think I wouldn't check those? Your exhaustive analysis into my every reply, mixed with your warnings about personal attacks while in turn attacking me, grant you nothing. Get off your powertrip. I will not apologize for stating the facts and correcting others on their ridiculous fantasies. You need to get real.

This thread is nothing but wild fantasy and baseless speculation. All ridiculous. Especially the people that insist anything written in latin or roman numerals is super ultra sinister top secret. Um, what? I guess we'll never decipher the codes! Seriously, these features run rampant through the military. Why? Because they LOOK COOL. Exactly what I already said. There are no secret or hidden messages on these. That's just plain stupid.

reply to post by SpringHeeledJack
[more

Okay, so I did little more than scan the thread so I can't say what's fake and what's not, however, the links below are sites for patches that are on .mil addresses so I can presume that they are not fake. Regardless of the process for designing the patches it is clear to the student of symbology that there are A LOT of esoteric symbols incorporated into the patch designs. On one level this doesn't allow you to say anything more than the fact that esoteric symbols show up again and again in these patches. On another level, there is a lot of meaning that can be found in symbols. Perhaps the rank and file aren't privy to the deeper esoteric meanings, but it is highly likely that those in command positions are.

www.af.mil...
www.strategic-air-command.com...
www.schriever.af.mil...
www.310sw.afrc.af.mil...

This was a screen shot, I wish I had a clearer image, but it stands as an example of esoteric/occult symbol in the military system, in this case, Gitmo. Of significance in this image, Delta is (amongst other things) 1) the identifier of elite forces 2) Found again and again in esoteric symbology, 3) The level of MK-Ultra programming that is the "killer", 4) A Greek letter signified by...the triangle/

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4b7c1800e2dd.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by coyotepoet


I appreciate your intelligent rebuttal and your inclusion of reliable sources. I understand your concern with these symbols and I see how they can concern someone with an outside perspective. I don't expect you to read through all my posts but I did state that patches are designed by units, usually the lower ranking, and proposed to the rest of the squadron. Almost like a drawing contest for kids to be honest. Really, the coolest looking one gets picked. Unfortunately for me, it was some kind of war pelican of doom or whatever.

The term CAMP DELTA is really a sort of use of the military phonetic alphabet. Delta really only denotes a D which stands for Detention. There is also a CAMP ECHO, CAMP IGUANA, and CAMP X-RAY. As to the "iguana," designator, that is just plain odd. My guess is that since the camp is used for detainees who are soon to be released, it eludes to sun bathing and hanging out.

reply to post by coyotepoet


Additionally.

I too had misconceptions of the military before I joined. They can seem secretive, shady, and dangerous. I understand.

What people need to understand about me is that I deal in facts. I will speculate from time to time when the role calls for it but I'm here on ATS to help. I know the government does shady stuff. For example, nobody can deny that MKULTRA and it's derivatives took place. It's just a plain, open fact. What I can do though is to help guide people in the right direction in order to solve these mysteries. I can assure you I have nothing but the best intentions and have no agenda to lead anyone astray. We're all a team of truth-seekers here. Some doubtful, some gullible, some with feet on the ground, and others with their head in the clouds.

I recognize that I may be caustic at times but that's only because I know certain things to be true. I know others claim this trait as well but my claims can be cited and verified. Like I said, my only real intention here is to direct the misguided. Attention should be focused elsewhere.

reply to post by SpringHeeledJack


And I respect your point of view as well even though I may come across as challenging it in both this and another thread. I also admit that I don't have all the answers (and I get what you are saying about the Delta signifier as well), however

that is the meaning of esoteric and exoteric,

exoteric being the chocolaty shell while esoteric is the nougat so to speak

In many ways the military is like freemasonry...

I will, and have, defended freemasonry as a whole against baseless accusations of world domination, etc. However, what goes on at the top of a pyramid is largely not known by the bottom of the pyramid. (esoteric vs exoteric). I have had a number of conversations with an uncle who was (now retired) a Colonel in the Army, specifically in the intelligence division. And while I know he is a good person, I also know, based on things he said and implied, that there is a lot more going on than many people (even those in lower ranks of the military) realize.

reply to post by SpringHeeledJack


Also, my time on ATS has given me a perspective which I am not sure I can articulate but will try,,,

Everybody is convinced that they are right, and in a sense everybody is (at least those that aren't intentionally trying to push disinfo.)

People can be divided into 2 basic camps, the materialists and the spiritualists. Each has their own reasons for believing that they are right. The Truth tends to be more complex than either side.

There are people that only believe in what they can see and touch. Only believe in what science can prove, not understanding that science itself is limited by it's particular worldview. For instance, I was just talking to my ex tonight about experiences she has been having in communicating with a dead friend about things, verified by her friends widow, that they had never discussed when her friend was alive. Science would say that's impossible, psychology would try to explain it away as "forgotten conversations" (I'm a Masters level psychologist so I've got some insight) and yet, there it is.

There are others that believe everything that anybody tells them because it "sounds good", without doing the work or having the experiences for themselves. I had a Qi Gong teacher that would not tell us what results we should be seeing from our exercises because then we would either be looking for them or just imagining them. When we would come back and discuss our individual experiences after not being told what we should be experiencing and having that verified, that to me is an example of doing the work yourself rather that eating anything that you are fed.

The solution I think lies somewhere in the middle. Not believing everything you are told and verifying it through personal experience, but also not limiting yourself to certain things either. So who is right, what is Truth?

The closest I could come to understanding and explaining it is to consider that we are all on the outside of a sphere at different points of understanding and perspective looking in at the center of the sphere which is an objective Truth. However, because we are all sitting at different points of the sphere looking in at the center from different perspectives, we all have a different subjective truth. It's like the 3 blind guys and the elephant. Is the elephant a tree trunk? A rope? A hose? Yes...and no.

Originally posted by coyotepoet
In many ways the military is like freemasonry...

Well here is one patch that is real and you don't need a lot of guess work to see the symbology



And yes that is an actual NRO mission patch

And while I know he is a good person, I also know, based on things he said and implied, that there is a lot more going on than many people (even those in lower ranks of the military) realize.

Its called 'compartmentalization' A spook friend of mine once told me that he could talk to me about certain things, but if he ever went silent on a topic, that would be because I had touched a subject he wasn't free to speak about.

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack
Here we go. Does this satisfy you

Yup that will do.. I will take your word that that is you

or will you continue on with your crusade in defense of ignorance. I am who I say I am. I know what I say I know. OP's source for the patches is loaded with fictitious information. I trust we can get back on topic after this...

Sure but you already told us you don't have time to read the thread and just assume all are BS, an I don't have the time to go back over it and pull out the good ones. So that puts us at an impasse

Now then... I am not sure if you saw the sign on the door... that this is the biggest conspiracy site on Planet Earth... so looking for conspiracies here is what we do You may indeed have some knowledge to share. but even you don't know everything, because if you were that high on the food chain, you wouldn't be allowed to hang out here

reply to post by coyotepoet


Absolutely. Compartmentalization of projects can't be denied. Like the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing. Like I said, I can't speak to precise details on where on can find answers, but I can show where they are not. Even if I cannot be trusted as the final word on a matter (and I shouldn't be), my insight in this matter in particular should be valued as much as a astronomer's in speaking on celestial bodies.

I guess I get put-off by those on a site who's motto is "Deny Ignorance" when I'm plainly speaking on a matter into which I have much experience and insight. I have no problem verifying my qualifications and upon doing so, I'm attacked in other ways. I know it's never-ending on ATS and I accept that. I won't drag anyone kicking and screaming into the light. Willful ignorance can't be fought. At least, I don't have the tools to do it.

reply to post by zorgon


Exactly. I'm just inviting anyone to look things up before they make assumptions.

In fact, I was still in the military, stuck working 12 hour shifts at our Mission Control Center when I found this site. Been lurking ever since. Took me a long time to join. This was around 2007 if I recall correctly. At the time, I was on a government computer and more than paranoid that I would be found out and disciplined. But I figure if it isn't blocked, I'll do as I please.

I have a feeling that if I were high on the food chain, I'd either be in a zombie-like fearful trance, or I would suffer a catastrophic incident after disclosing some juicy tidbits.

ETA: I was also cruising Wikileaks in it's less notorious days at the time. The use is monitored but I just think nobody around knew what it even was. And I assume ATS was just a lil too wacky to take seriously.

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack

I guess I get put-off by those on a site who's motto is "Deny Ignorance"

But see, the caveat with "Deny Ignorance" works both ways... I see the term bandied about by skeptics a lot. One example was a recent NASA UFO thread. As is usual, certain people don't take time to read the whole thread ... so this skeptic pops in and affirms that we are all ignorant and says it is just a piece of space debris.

By that time though we had already identified the object as NASA's new toy floating orb camera... so in this case the skeptic had the ignorance.

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack
At the time, I was on a government computer and more than paranoid that I would be found out and disciplined. But I figure if it isn't blocked, I'll do as I please.

Well I once got an email from a NASA employee who asked me to remove the music from one area of my web site. It seems when he hit that page he got some embarrassment at work at Johnston Space Center when the X files theme played. I later found out he was the leader in charge of the ISS image data base

I have a feeling that if I were high on the food chain, I'd either be in a zombie-like fearful trance, or I would suffer a catastrophic incident after disclosing some juicy tidbits.

Well I have some contacts near the top, and they are not fearful or zombies, but they don't tell me a lot either. Just drop the odd hint where to look. I did have one report from someone at Space command who described a triangle he saw while at Hill AFB in 1985... then a few months back he called me excitedly and said "THAT is what I saw... only it was bigger!" What he was referring to was the Mach 10 Blackswift that Fox news did a little story on Cept he saw it in 1985

Originally posted by SpringHeeledJack

ETA: I was also cruising Wikileaks in it's less notorious days at the time. The use is monitored but I just think nobody around knew what it even was. And I assume ATS was just a lil too wacky to take seriously.

I have yet to see anything good come from Wikileaks that I can use.. mostly just political gossip... As to ATS, we like it that way Keeps em guessing, but you would be surprised at some of the lurkers who pass through here.

So... you say you worked at "Mission Control"? What were you launching

Anyway gotta run... I just found they have a new toy ready to launch... Need to go check it out

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/266d39fa7604.png[/atsimg]

reply to post by SpringHeeledJack

I guess I get put-off by those on a site who's motto is "Deny Ignorance" when I'm plainly speaking on a matter into which I have much experience and insight.

Hah! Yep, there's quite a bit of that around here, on both sides of the perceptual fence. Lots of people with lots of specialized experience and insight (which tends to put blinders on people in the direction of their experience) and plenty of others without a lot of experience who just believe what they are told (again on both sides of the fence.) I like you. Maybe we don't see eye to eye or have the same kinds of experiences, but you seem genuine and for that I have a lot of respect.