Christians, it is your responsibility

It doesn't sound that easy...

Most people won't be willing to put their families on the line. And I think that's okay.

Perhaps there's a very good reason Jesus recommended not having wife and family is better!!!

There's your word, 'recommended' it's not mandatory . Good thing is I'm still single @27. First stop is volunteering to be a relief worker!!

reply to post by ahnggk

Perhaps there's a very good reason Jesus recommended not having wife and family is better!!!

That was Paul in 1 Corinthians, not Jesus. Paul didn't say that not having a family was necessarily better than having one, but that some are called to not have a wife and kids and they shouldn't fret over that because they can devote more time to service.

Also, there are verses in the Proverbs that say that children are a gift from God and that he who finds a wife finds a good thing. God also commanded people to "be fruitful and multiply". So, it can't be that bad!

reply to post by octotom


Don't think the Joe Jordan is the one you're speaking of, but I honestly can't say. He investigated abductions before becoming a Christian... after doing spiritual warfare study, he wanted to leave that alone, but God made that his calling... that is, exposing the truth behind what these things really are. Alien abduction experiences cease once the abductee calls upon the name of Jesus.

Originally posted by Adrifter
.. But come on.. were smarter then this..

Are we? If you look at history, it would dictate that we are not. Far too many have been killed in the name of God.... Yet, a cursory examination exposes the fact that these things didn't happen for the sake of God; they happened for the sake of man's misconceptions of God.

"Why dost you prate of God? Everything you say of him is untrue." Meister Eckhart. I believe this statement to be the truth with every fiber of my being.

Adrifter, what you said in your entire post has a lot of truth in it as well, which is why I starred it. We fuss and argue over things which we really no little to nothing of and it is in vain. Until man admits that he knows that he knows nothing, there will be no peace.

reply to post by zefiro


I'll try, but I don't think they will listen buddy. I have a hard enough time with my own mother and her Christian traditional beliefs passed down through countless generations, let alone taking on the whole of fundamentalist Christianity. I think it would take someone like Jesus to make them see the errors of their ways.

reply to post by zefiro


I hear you loud and clear. I was brought up Christian. Then i realized, Jesus was not a Christian.

We humans do what where best at, taking credit.
Over the years, the teachings of Christ have fallen into the hands of the greedy. They have used it for their own selfish desires, and empowered themselves through it.

So i cannot call myself a Christian, although i believe in what Christ stood for.
This is basic stuff, we all know it inside ourselves, and we don't really need to be told it.
The dogmas that follow behind organised religion are mostly man made, and so designed to benefit man.

The only way that we can stand against the controllers, is one by one.

I would like to acknowledge the millions of Christians out there right now, and the many past, who have done exactly that.

However there is not point calling yourself a Christian, if thats as far as you take it. Better call yourself a nothing, and do a little something to better the world!!!

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
reply to post by zefiro

 

I'll try, but I don't think they will listen buddy. I have a hard enough time with my own mother and her Christian traditional beliefs passed down through countless generations, let alone taking on the whole of fundamentalist Christianity. I think it would take someone like Jesus to make them see the errors of their ways.

Couple things on people on this post.

1. As regards this thread, we don't care if they listen. This is about exposing the Fundies as the non-Christians that they are. If we save a few along the way, great. Heck, wouldn't it be cool to sue them for libel/slander? It would lose, but think of the noise you guys would make

2. On a gentler note, they will listen. They won't know it. You won't know it. But the message does fire off a neuron or two in their brain. When they hear the same message again, that same neuron or two fires again. After enough repetitions, a question may form OR when they read a Bible scripture themselves, they may interpret it in a different way than they have been programmed, etc. You will almost never see immediate results. This is a process that often takes years. More repetitions from more sources will hasten the process, that is why everyone should be a source, Christians should organize to publicly shout the message, so that there are even more sources.

Also, do it gently, quietly. With empathy, with sadness. Fundies are trained to be on-guard against direct confrontation, are trained to believe that they are persecuted and when you attack them, you actually confirm that for them and strengthen their connections to the Fundies/Televangalist.

Originally posted by iulslion

The only way that we can stand against the controllers, is one by one.

Disagree. That is only one of many possible strategies.

Here's another one:
Christians have huge numbers or people.
Those huge numbers of people are already organized into small communities of support (churches).
Many of those churches are linked together as a denomination.
What does this all mean? You have already built a grass-roots organization that is pretty efficient and easily motivated to actually do stuff rather than just start a thread complaining that other people should do stuff

What if. . .a denomination publicly stated that X public hypocrite (Haggard/Bush/Rush) was not a Christian (unless they change, of course)? Even better, make a public announcement that members of the denomination should consider Mr. Fundie X as a threat to their faith.

I'm sure that anyone with experience and training in PR and marketing could come up with much better ideas to acheive this goal. . .heck, Church's have enough money to hire some of those people. . .or maybe they are real Christians already and would do it for free.

reply to post by zefiro


The Bible teaches followers of Jesus to question what they are taught. I do so everywhere I go, even in church. I also don't consider all self-proclaimed Christians as such. According to Jesus, by their fruit, you will know them. George Bush is certainly not a Christian. And it's not the Christian's responsibility to stand up and take blame for fakes. But it's everyone's responsibility to discern who is real and who isn't. The problem here is, people outside of the faith really have no understanding of what true faith is, and lump those who do not belong with those who are whole-heartledly following Christ.

I honestly hope and pray that your eyes are open to the only real hope you have in this world.

Originally posted by derekcollins79

The Bible teaches followers of Jesus to question what they are taught. I do so everywhere I go, even in church.

Derek, it is too bad that most "Christians" don't do that. I applaud you for actually going to church and still having a brain.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by derekcollins79

The Bible teaches followers of Jesus to question what they are taught. I do so everywhere I go, even in church.

Derek, it is too bad that most "Christians" don't do that. I applaud you for actually going to church and still having a brain.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

I think this applies to almost all people. If something is presented in a factual basis and it sounds good, people will buy it. This is Christians and non-Christians alike. There is much of this going on within the truth movement.

I disagree with a couple of things my denomination holds to, and I'm not big on denominations at all. But I go to a church where I feel welcomed, feel a great sense of fellowship, and most importantly feel the presence of the one true God.

I've been pulled to and fro by "teachers." I once got into New Age thinking without even realizing it. (Part of this was listening to teachers who really twisted the text of the Bible. My problem was I didn't know the Bible enough to see through the torturing of the text.) I once questioned whether Jesus was real or whether he was who he said he was. Today, I have no doubt that his claims are true and it's solely by the grace of God that he has opened my eyes to so much that is going on in this world.

Originally posted by derekcollins79
reply to post by zefiro

 

But it's everyone's responsibility to discern who is real and who isn't. The problem here is, people outside of the faith really have no understanding of what true faith is, and lump those who do not belong with those who are

This is where we disagree a bit.
All I have is a stupid example for this: Let's say I own a business. Someone is out there is doing poor work for people and claiming he is from my company. It is my responsibility to protect my company and my employee's jobs and reputation and publicly expose this fraud. It is also my employees responsiblility to do the same just to protect their own jobs and reputations along with those of their community (coworkers).

However, it isn't my customer's responsibility to discern who is real or not. They may benefit from discerning or they may be good neighbors and help my company expose the fraud, but they have absolutely no responsiblility to do so. They have no obligation to put forth the time and energy to help me protect my business. They have no obligation to post the fraud's photograph, or tell other potential customers or do anything at all.

All of that is entirely up to me and my business.

What I am trying to show with the example is that it isn't my responsibility to put forth any effort to learn the difference between real Christians and those that are using the name. If you don't want to be lumped with those others, it is your responsibility to educate the lumpers. Non-Christians don't have any obligation to 'understand what true faith is', why would they?

Slightly different note to the thread at large: I've seen the posts that claim that the problem is just to big for us little Christians to deal with. . .generally there is a reference, direct or indirect, that Satan or 'The World' is just too powerful and that God will take care of it. Maybe that is true in the larger context, but in the context of this thread, this battle is really simple.

You have a large number of quiet Christians, there are a smaller number of noisy Fundies. To win, all the quiet Christians need to do is organize a bit and make a little noise. That is the battle. That is the strategy to win. Simple. No huge struggle involved, no need to call on Jesus to assist, no blood, no death, just organize and make noise. Kids on the playground do it, it's time that you stop hiding behind Jesus's skirts and do it, too.

reply to post by zefiro


I agree with you about that. The groundwork has been laid, and the Christian network as a whole and in cells are a formidable force - if they act.

The only problem is, with all such societies or groups, they look up to their leaders. Awakening these people is what will make the difference.

Until churches as a group are talking about whats really going on the single followers will have to stand one by one. You all know how it works, in order to stand up to authority, most people need a leader - someone to follow.

Hence we must stand one by one, without fear. It is the only way to rise up. Each of us must do our piece, and Christian or not, people will follow the truth. After all, we are designed to know it when we hear it. Our brains are giant decoding machines, capable of telling wrong from right...
EVEN NON-CHRISTIANS

Originally posted by Republican08
You can tell by the eery silence of these post that are absence there is a ton of guilt.

You can't obey some laws and oppose the others, believe in it fully or believe nothing of it is my opinion.

If I was a christian now, I would've never had sex before marriage, never would've told a lie, even a white lie, wouldn't of ever ingested somethings. I would of done alot less in life, but I do rebuke it, and it's in writing here!

I do believe in moderation though, and thats not from a god being.

I do think though, and belive strongly if your going to be a christian be the best on you can be don't half a$$ it, it says in the bible not too.

Time to stand up guys and gals, and say you have obeyed the bible in its entireity and held strongfast to it in opposition to satan, without claiming, well I'll pray and he'll forgive me, cause if you know its wrong and do it anyways there is no forgiveness and you know I know it, and you know I know that you know it, and your supposed almighty knows it!

No paradox there.

I see the point behind the first few posts, the one being quoted was the last one I read before replying.

It does indeed say to be 100% for it, but it also acknowledges the fact that nobody is capable of being righteous and sticking to all the rules. Basically, it's do your best.

As far as standing up and claiming how good we are is something the bible says not to do. It says to do good works, and do them for God without showing them off. Not to boast about it. Just get it done and lead by example.

As far as anyone in power (obviously the crazy asshole Christians mentioned in the first post) Seriously, I think nine out of ten people know that they aren't what Jesus wanted them to be.

What exactly would you have somebody do about it?

reply to post by zefiro


Ah, so since Stalin killed for atheistic agenda that makes it atheism at larges fault? Using your logic I mean... Since when can any person be held accountable for the excesses of another who claims to be "one of them"?

[edit on 10-6-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Taskism

What exactly would you have somebody do about it?

One thing I will NOT do, is tell you to read the whole thread. Man, I hate when people tell me that. Who has the time to read everything that is interesting on this site?

Saying that, I have suggested a few strategies along the way. The last suggestion was actually just a few posts up.

Slightly different note to the thread at large: I've seen the posts that claim that the problem is just to big for us little Christians to deal with. . .generally there is a reference, direct or indirect, that Satan or 'The World' is just too powerful and that God will take care of it. Maybe that is true in the larger context, but in the context of this thread, this battle is really simple.

You have a large number of quiet Christians, there are a smaller number of noisy Fundies. To win, all the quiet Christians need to do is organize a bit and make a little noise. That is the battle. That is the strategy to win. Simple. No huge struggle involved, no need to call on Jesus to assist, no blood, no death, just organize and make noise. Kids on the playground do it, it's time that you stop hiding behind Jesus's skirts and do it, too.

Watcher, that's a pretty interesting claim that Stalin killed for atheistic reasons. Bit of a reach. Buts let's say he did. Stalin pronounced to the world that he was an atheist and was going to kill millions of his countrymen because of it. Absolutely, it would be every atheists' responsibility to denounce that Stalin was a true atheist and that his actions have absolutely no relation to what atheists stand for or believe.

I submit that it was your interpretation of my premise that was off, not the premise itself.

[edit on 6/10/2009 by zefiro]

reply to post by zefiro


Christians are separating the fakes. I'm doing so in this thread. Will you research it more?

There are fakes in every facet of society. Is everyone's job to point out fakes all the time? Of course not, although there are many Christian resources that do that now. Your call for such a thing suggests right away that you have even scratched the surface, and it's fairly easy to find. We all should be a little bit educated on a subject before we open our mouths as experts about it. Biblical text itself teaches the Christian how to do so. You take responsibility for what you say, whether you like to or not. Unfortunately, often times this isn't the case. I've been guilty as well.

reply to post by zefiro


I would suggest that "if" Stalin killed for atheistic reasons, misrepresenting many atheists, the person that lumps all atheists in with Stalin is absolutely responsible for not knowing that all atheists glory in killing.

If you're going to make a broad generalization about a group, you better know what you're talking about. It's not my responsibility to keep people making stereotypical statements when they shouldn't be made to begin with. Even so, the resources exist that you would already have been able to separate if you had so desired to know these things.

Christians see the misuse and abuse too. Jesus warned about it, not just for now but in all generations past, people did evil in the name of God.

Jesus said you should be able to discern the seasons yourself. In my opinion people have just about had enough of falsehoods etc. But I am not sure which way the scales will tip when push comes to shove. I would hope that good people will stand up for what is right, but after reading all the posts of people condoning the cop who tazered the great-grandma, I know I must be prepared for the worst.



[edit on 10-6-2009 by Bombeni]