Christians, it is your responsibility

reply to post by DaisyAnne


In Biblical context, what would lead you to believe they are different?

reply to post by DaisyAnne


When you look at Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28, and Revelation 12 and 20, a case can be made that Lucifer and Satan are the same being.

Revelation 20.7, 8, and 10 indicate that Satan and the devil are the same being:

And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire...

When we look at Revelation 12.9, we see this again as well as another identity of Satan:

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the world...

According to that verse, Satan is also the "ancient serpent". That can be none other than the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Genesis 3.1:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

In Ezekiel 28.13, we read something interesting in God's address to the "King of Tyre":

You were in Eden, the Garden of God...

It is impossible that the King of Tyre was in Eden. Only God, Adam, Eve, and Satan are said to have been there. God must be talking to Satan "via" the King of Tyre. Satan must've been controlling him. It's not unheard of in Scripture for demonic entities to control figures of government. This is shown in the book of Esther and in Daniel.

Another interesting thing is stated about Satan in Ezekiel 28.16b, 17a. The reason that he fell:

...you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned...Your heart was pround because of your beauty...

Apparently, Satan sinned and fell due to pride, that was caused by his beauty.

We also see in this chapter that Satan was removed from his position due to his sin.

There is a place in scripture where someone fell from heaven due to their sin. Isaiah 14.12:

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!

Day Star, in Hebrew is Lucifer. Many translations such as the KJV have Lucifer in this verse. It is strange that this verse says that the King of Babylon, fell from heaven. God must be talking to Satan in this verse also. With that being the case, we can affirm that Satan's real name is Lucifer. [Satan simply means adversary.] Later in this passage, we see the "I will" statements of Lucifer, which were the sins that led to his fall. They're in Isaiah 14.13-14. It is these statements that connect this passage to Ezekiel 28.

(It is also interesting to note that a similar phrase to son of Dawn is used in Job 38.7, refering to angels. This is another example of why this passage must be talking to Satan.)

In the end, Satan and Lucifer are the same being.

Originally posted by DaisyAnne

Originally posted by derekcollins79
reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

 

I know that some that practice the occult do not believe in an actual being called Satan or Lucifer. Some, do, though. For some it's an idea, for others it's a real being they believe in.

Is there any actual scripture that states that Lucifer and Satan are in fact the same being?
Because I have never come across any.
Related, yes. Same being? Nope.

Ive heard it argured that Lucifer was Satan's name when he was still an angel before he fell from Heaven, because Lucifer means Morning Star, and there's a passage in the Bible saying the Morning Star fell from Heaven so I guess it depends on how you interpret it.

reply to post by Sundancer

Would like you to know that when I posted "Sorry but I think most Christians are the same" I had you in mind, any other time I would have posted ALL christians are the same.

That's very kind of you Sundancer. Thank you.

I think that if you keep reading the similarly themed threads here in ATS, you will see what true Christians are like. At least from my experience here on this site, I've encountered Christians that have a true passion for God and crave his word and don't fit the stereotypical mold that Christians are supposed to be in.

reply to post by Sundancer

I'm confused I thought you were suposed to put your life into the hands of God, that he knows what is best and will always protect you?

If xtians really believed this, then they would never need a doctor, never need medical insurance, never need home insurance or contraception.

Xtianity is a joke my friend, a make it up as you go along cult with millions of sheeple blindly doing as the pastor bleats because they can't be bothered to read any of the bibles.If they did the they probably wouldn't be xtians for much longer


Except Octotom lol he's hardcore the Chuck Norris of xtianity

[edit on 6-6-2009 by moocowman]

reply to post by moocowman

If xtians really believed this, then they would never need a doctor, never need medical insurance, never need home insurance or contraception.

God wants us to live our lives with wisdom and to care for our families. It's a wise thing to go to the doctor, have insurance, and the like. God can heal people. A friend of mine had back problems that modern medicine couldn't heal. When he went to India for a missions trip, some Indian Christians prayed over him and the problems went away!

It's foolish to just sit back and wait for God to do stuff. This is because God often works through us and others to accomplish his will. This is seen throughout the Scriptures.

Xtianity is a joke my friend, a make it up as you go along cult with millions of sheeple blindly doing as the pastor bleats because they can't be bothered to read any of the bibles.If they did the they probably wouldn't be xtians for much longer

If only it was made up as we went! It would be so much easier then! Sadly, we don't make up our beliefs as we go. Though, it may seem like it at times when one is discussing an theological area that they're not so familiar with.

I believe actually that many Christians leave the faith when they don't read their Bibles. From my experience, when a nominal Christian picks up their Bible and reads it, it grounds them in the faith.

Except Octotom lol he's hardcore the Chuck Norris of xtianity

While I'm probably not as conservative as Chuck Norris, I don't mind at all being likened to the best action TV star of all time.

Listen to yourselves argue, no closer to the truth, yet further from understanding the reality. This is and has been the constrict of life forever, the conclusion if it were up to man's logic would be nothing.. Why is it so hard to believe a time occurred where a man suggested trying to bring love and peace to Earth, and do good, regardless of imperfections in life whether it be by him or others, why is it so hard to comprehend, why must we try to find all the reasons and prove the differences in life..


Again all we can do is try to do good. When we screw up or F up, we try again.. We make mistakes we learn.. Why must it be such a complex script to follow. We're alive.. Look up at the stars tonight and realize how special that is.. bah preaching a lil.. But come on.. were smarter then this..

reply to post by octotom


These are all interesting examples, but it is still a case of deduction and conjecture. I don't see anything concrete to link the term Lucifer with the term Satan within the Bible. In fact Jesus refers to himself as the Morning Star in Revelations.

In the Gospel of Nicodemus, which if I remember correctly is from around the third century, the Prince of Hell and Satan are seen to be having a conversation about the descent of Jesus into hell. This would indicate that there was at the time a belief in more than one being.

I am sorry if I am going off-topic here! If you would like me to remian strictly on topic, just let me know.

reply to post by octotom

God wants us to live our lives with wisdom and to care for our families.

So, assuming that god/jesus is the creator of all that there is/was/ever will be, how is it possible, for god not to get what god wants ?

If god wants something this clearly implies that god lacks something, lacking something implies that there is something not of god, which is impossible if god is the creator of all that there is and therefore "all" that there is.

No amount of theological cranial gymnastics or scriptural ambiguity can get around the fact that a god in need cannot be omniscient/omnipresent.

It is all well and good me observing this logical fallacy but (if the bibles are to be taken as truth) Jesus/Yahweh confirms this problem.

He himself clearly states in his first commandments that he is a "jealous" god, and humans are to have no other gods other than him. Those that did choose other gods were killed by jesus or one of his reps eg moses, "by the thousands"!


So yahweh/jesus not only claims to be jealous but goes out and proves how jealous he actually is by killing (or worse?) the ones that chose not to love him above all else (plenty of men like this spending time in jail no?)


So what does this all logically imply ?

There are other gods so Yahweh /Jesus is not the creator of everything.

There are other gods and Yahweh/jesus created them in order for men to be tempted to worship and then be killed for doing so.

Yet again Yawhweh/ jesus alludes to the other gods in genesis when he discuses the creation of man " --make him in our image), of course apologists decry this reasoning claiming that he was talking to himself ie Jesus/or yahweh, he'd not announced his name at that point.


Whatever way we look at it, we cannot but observe that the emotion of jealousy was created by yahweh/jesus himself (if the bible is truth) negating his own omniscience/omnipresence and breaking one of his own commandments to boot.

At's all very well xtians going around proselytizing, repent your sins join us as the end times are right now and your gonna burn if you don't. But as soon as the curious start reading the bibles they come across this kind of insanity just in the first few chapters!

Things then gets really ridiculous when the xtians then explain that the message from god, they gave to them in the form of the bibles, needs someone else to explain to them what it all means.

People can read, it's such a shame yahwe/jesus couldn't write.

reply to post by DaisyAnne

In fact Jesus refers to himself as the Morning Star in Revelations.

I'll have to fish it out, but I remember reading somewhere once that the translation of "Star of the Morning" in Isaiah 14 is not the best translation. The phrase actually means something else. I forget what it is though.

reply to post by moocowman

So, assuming that god/jesus is the creator of all that there is/was/ever will be, how is it possible, for god not to get what god wants ?

God does get what he wants and he will get what he wants ultimately. God wants people to follow him, worship him, rely on him, and acknowledge that he is Lord over all. He gets this today by Christians all around the world. Ultimately, every knee will bow and confess that he's God.

If god wants something this clearly implies that god lacks something, lacking something implies that there is something not of god, which is impossible if god is the creator of all that there is and therefore "all" that there is.

God doesn't lack anything, never has never will. Everything is his. Initially, God created the universe not so that he could have something worship him like robots but so that he could share his love with something. He didn't need to do this though because he was lacking it. He desired to do it. Desiring to do something is different than wanting something out of need.

He himself clearly states in his first commandments that he is a "jealous" god, and humans are to have no other gods other than him. Those that did choose other gods were killed by jesus or one of his reps eg moses, "by the thousands"!

This jealousy is a righteous jealousy. One that comes when someone is robbed of something that is rightfully theirs. For example, if my wife went and cheated on me, I would be jealous. Not because I had envy, but because she gave something to someone else that is rightfully mine and no one else should have received.

Likewise, since there is only one God, YHWH, only he deserves to be worshiped. So, when people went off and worshipped the Baals and Astereths, God became jealous because he was being robbed of something that was rightfully his. The same is true today. When we put more stock in material things than the God of the universe, he doesn't like this. He becomes jealous.

So yahweh/jesus not only claims to be jealous but goes out and proves how jealous he actually is by killing (or worse?) the ones that chose not to love him above all else (plenty of men like this spending time in jail no?)

God gave the people a chance to repent before they ended up dying. In addition, there is a school of thought, which I more or less subscribe to, that believes that the people that were killed actually weren't human but angel human hybrids. Long story. If interested, you should google the angel theory of Genesis 6. This theory puts a lot of things into perspective and makes God not seem as evil as some make him out to be.

There are other gods so Yahweh /Jesus is not the creator of everything.

Just because people worship something that doesn't mean that that deity exists. There is a story in Joshua, I think, where the Philistines captured the Ark of the Covenant. Now, the Philistines worshiped a god named Dagon. They put the Ark next to a Dagon statue. Three mornings in a row, when the Dagonite priests went to give the morning sacrifice, the Dagon statue was on the ground in front of the Ark of the Covenant! God did this to show that, though we may worship idols, he is still God over all.

There are other gods and Yahweh/jesus created them in order for men to be tempted to worship and then be killed for doing so.

This can't be. Through out the Scriptures, God says there are no other gods but him. Had he created other gods, by saying that there were no others, God would be lying. Which can't be because it's contrary to his nature. God can't tempt people either. Tempting someone is a sin and God can't sin. The idea of false dieties came from Satan who's desire it is to be worshiped and rob YHWH from what is rightfully his.

Yet again Yawhweh/ jesus alludes to the other gods in genesis when he discuses the creation of man " --make him in our image), of course apologists decry this reasoning claiming that he was talking to himself ie Jesus/or yahweh, he'd not announced his name at that point.

There are two ways to look at Genesis 1.27. One, which is the view that I favor, is that, as you've stated, this is the first mention of the Trinity, albeit a small one. Another, which makes sense grammatically, is that, since 'elohim is plural in Hebrew, it would be coupled with a plural possessive pronoun. In this case "our".

Whatever way we look at it, we cannot but observe that the emotion of jealousy was created by yahweh/jesus himself (if the bible is truth) negating his own omniscience/omnipresence and breaking one of his own commandments to boot.

Again, the jealousy that God exhibits is different than envy and coveting. When we envy, we desire to have something that isn't ours. When God is jealous, he desires something that is rightfully his.

Things then gets really ridiculous when the xtians then explain that the message from god, they gave to them in the form of the bibles, needs someone else to explain to them what it all means.

Not all Christians believe that you need someone else to tell you what it means. In fact, that's more of a Catholic belief, which is only half of Christians. The other half encourages personal Bible study. I've learned a lot of what I've learned through my own personal study. While I do go to church and listen to teachings on the internet and stuff, I don't view that as "the learned telling me what to think". It's more or less others sharing what they've gleaned from their study of the Word.

People can read, it's such a shame yahwe/jesus couldn't write.

Or could he?

John 8.6-8:

This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote on the ground.

reply to post by octotom


Seems like we are on the same level theologically, octotom. I certainly believe aliens are the fallen angels, too.

What if I were to make a thread like this...?

Premise:
1. Muslim extremists pervert the values of Mohammed.
2. The larger Islamic community bear a measure of responsibility for the suffering the extremists cause.

or how about....

Premise:
1. Elite Jewish bankers pervert the values of God.
2. The larger Jewish community bear a measure of responsibility for the suffering the bankers cause.

reply to post by derekcollins79


It makes a lot of sense. At least to me.

I also believe that the Nephilim are fallen angels as well--as well as many of the groups of "people" after the flood.

Have you by chance read the book, What on Earth is God Doing?? In it, the author gets into this a little bit.

Chuck Missler, a Bible scholar, has a really good series of videos about the Nephilim/aliens on YouTube.

Really interesting.

[edit on 6/6/2009 by octotom]

reply to post by mostlyspoons


You might get a lot of stars and flags for the the Jew one due to the mindset of many on ATS.

I know what you're saying though. Unfortunately, threads like this pop-up about once or twice a week on this site.

Has anyone seen the hell the world has become thanks to religion (mosty Christianity)? This is all bull, religion is all bull (except Bhudism, it's not a religion). There is no god! Man would end up destroying itself before any "god" , "Deity", or what ever you call it shows up, and no god will save us when we do end up destroying ourselves. The insane will be the ones praying as the nukes fall.

reply to post by The Killah29

I understand peoples anger toward organized religion- History proves that point clearly.
And, I understand why people would question "well, if Gods so great then why does this happen.." type things

BUT

Keep in mind that A. The bible was written and transcribed by men- yes, maybe holy men, but men nonetheless. Therefore, whose to say that everything in the bible is honestly Gods word- men make mistakes, they are flawed. Maybe God even knew that the prophets and scribes would translate a version here or there wrong, and he allowed it purposely?? For a purpose beyond our understanding.

Who are we to question God?

Im Christian, but do not hate nor lack understanding of those who dont
believe in Jesus. Yet, I cant grasp how anyone believes that they could ever possibly understand why God does anything. We are mere mortals. One of the greatest of all species, but still mortals.

Sex before marriage? Uh, yeah of course, need to know what you're getting into. But I dont deem myself a lesser Christian than another who believes sex before marriage to be wrong. But, I do deem myself a better Christian then the one who snickers behind my back and judges me for it-because to me, the judgment is worse than the 'crime'.

So, I have no fear telling others Im a Christian. Conventional Christians may cringe at the thought of me claiming to be 'with them', but their wincing only proves to me that I must scream louder and more convincingly (for those who care to know) on my views and thoughts of my God.

I dont know, maybe Im off the mark here...

reply to post by zefiro


i think your alittle confused and dont understand the true teachings of the bible, yes what these fundamentalists are preaching and doing is wrong and at every given opportunity i question and confront them on their beliefs but have you ever tried to argue with someone who is convinced of their own infallibility and purity? its an exercise in futility they are right every one else is wrong and when you point out the flaws in their argument they put their hands over their ears and yell blah blah blah im not listening to you cause your an idolater and a sinner (im catholic that makes me an idolater apparently).

short of taking a pick axe to the problem there is little we can do eliminate this problem all we can really do is be the best person we can be and try to live our lives as Jesus lived his life although we all fail miserably, ultimately we all will answer for how we lived our lives.

-judge not others lest ye be judged-
- love your neighbor as you love yourself -

are the 2 most fundamental Christian beliefs and the extremists seem to miss that point as they are too busy trying to point out the shortcommings in others as a means to hide their own failings from the world

One of the primary tenants of Christianity -- forgiveness. That includes forgiveness of self.

I think what the OP is talking about is judgement projected towards others, perceived as coming from the self-proclaiming Christian right. I don't disagree, if so. I have felt it myself. Today, even.

I think many times, it's a cultural thing, in that the manner in which people worship sometimes becomes a ritualized expectation, and those within the group either comply or are ostracized. I think this is true for more than Christians.

I have been accused of being a "universalist" by some of my brethren here. This place -- where I live -- it's primarily Baptist. No worries to me, however I feel the pressure of expectation, of conformity, quite often. I believe all of that are conventions of people, not spirituality. There is even a church here the demonizes women for wearing pants, based upon a few items from Laviticus in the Scriptures.

Now...... would Jesus castigate a woman for wearing pants? What if it had a hard crease and matching vest and coat? See what I mean? It all looses meaning when a person puts in down in print. Meanwhile, "the Universalist" goes about his business, not trying to challenge the conventions that sound all the world like parroting sermons.

I think God -- or whatever you want to call [it/her/him] expects us to THINK. God has already demonstrated to me time and time again that he/it/she has a profound sense of humor. Look at us, look at some of our posts, if you doubt

So, back to the OP. Why is it the responsibility of a few to "guide" the many? THAT's just what THEY try to do -- corral thoughts, herd ideas, always crafted to be acceptible to the local culture.

I couldn't respect a God who played such petty games. I'm pretty sure it's still more bullcrap perpetuated by people.

Edit for seplinlg



[edit on 6/6/09 by argentus]

reply to post by argentus

Amen brotha! pun intended. Its not up to us to make others believe. Their proof is right in front of their faces should they choose to see it.
I understand the OPs compassion toward what they believe is 'Christianity', but God needs us to utilize what we have been given and make our own judgment. If others are faltering and need some guidance then you know you are needed, but if not, hey...