Air France Plane down

reply to post by andy1033


apparantly you don`t know anything about aircraft travel or the A332

did BA hide the 772 that came down in Heathrow? did the fact 7 boeing 777 have now crashed shake confidence?

Originally posted by rusty35
Where is French Navy?

at 30 knots it`ll take them around 3 days to get there at best.


or did you think ships are fast?

reply to post by Harlequin


thank you, Harlequin....I got the joke. Likely, others won't.

I've already been seen to be wrong about the SSFDR and CVR, and how they can be located....I thought it was a 24-hour, or so battery life. Guess it's more like a month???

Still...."On Guard"....our reference....which I got...to 'En Guarde', as in a fencing challenge....and I prolly misspelled the French....but, homonyms make language interesting, no?

Not sure how many people realize what "MayDay" comes from. It is the english version of the French, "M'aide moi"....litterally, "Help Me"!!!!

Or....reason the 'day' is heard....is the French word for 'God'....pronounced "day" in English??? As in, "Help me God!!!"

We all owe much of our languages to outside influences....aviation is not any less of an influence....just, sometimes, terms get confused.

OR.....instead of the "god' referenc, in French....the verb "to help", in French, could result in the "DAY' sound.....m'aidez.....it is the French verb form....the "ez" is pronounced, in French, with a long "A".....in English.

SO.....we can argue WHY the word 'MayDay' became a term of help, in an emergency. BUT, as we have seen, it doesn't matter. Really.

Little known other term, for less of an immediate emergency, when communicating to ATC, is "Pan, Pan, Pan"

I actually have NO IDEA where from this term is derived. Have long wondered....anyone know????

Thanks for the answer Harlequim.

And yes, the ships are going to get there on Wednesday i guess. The French and the Brazilian ones. I heard that on the radio while i was coming to college.

reply to post by weedwhacker


french again

panne panne - breakdown breakdown

it also now means `possible assistance needed` - a call for urgent for not life threatening danger.

in the UK at least you get practise PANS for training.

I'm rather bothered that they have been rather quick to declare it lost and everyone dead without any information other than a disappearance with little to no information. I mean, planes have those big inflatable life rafts on them. I'm sure someone here who has ever flown stayed awake during during the "safety instruction" at the beginning, or looked at the safety card while in the plane's crapper as reading material. They have rafts, life vests, all that stuff.

Perhaps the pilots were able to ditch the plane and get everyone, or at least the majority, of people onto these things. Maybe there is something preventing communications. regardless, Until debris or body parts are spotted, I think it is rather premature to start wringing the hands and writing the whole thing off. I'd rather keep hope alive until there is absolute confirmation of tragedy.

Call me overley optimistic, but in these dark times, I prefer to believe in miracles and triumphs. After all, look what happened with that Airbus in New York earlier.

What is evident, however, is that the media is talking out it's but as usually and are quickly throwing things on air before any comfirmation or cross referencing is made. it really seems no one at this point is talking to each other or has a friggin clue whats going on, so I think I shall ignore media speculation and blather until something of substance shows up.

After all, they are just filling in to keep ratings up, not inform people.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


Great post skadi. I agree completely. You've instilled some optimism in me too. Although it may be illusionary, it's sometimes refreshing to hope for the best.

reply to post by Harlequin


Cool!!! Thanks, Harleqinn!!!!!

Finally.....my entrire career in flying....and NOW I get the answer!!!!

Brilliant work, and a great contribution, my friend!!

Now....back to the AF flight. ANY ideas??? I thought about CAT....but then others pointed out weather in the area....and, sorry for being too technical, but a flight can 'offset' the route, to avoid weather. Airplanes have very good weather RADAR on board....if you turn it on, it is very helpful to avoid the worst weather....essentially, RADAR returns from precip.....heavier the precip, the color changes....from green, to yellow, to red. AVOID the red......and, the magenta.....BECAUSE, doppler RADAR can also detect horizontal movement....and that is displayed in Magenta, on the onboard RADAR display. Actually, on modern airplanes, the RADAR data is sent to the EHSI....so, the course, the 'route' can be seen, and a diversion around weather can be seen, by pilots....live, and in action.

I wish I could explain more simply....as they say, a 'Picture is worth a thousand words"....I don't have a thousand words. Just my years of experience, and an attempt to explain, to the best of my ability, in words.

Wish I could do better.........

This is truly a sad event and my condolences go out to the families.

I find the media information and discussion of the disaster rather weird and disturbing. They are using language that they dont usually use in situations like this and have been very fast to make aware that there are no survivors.

We had the disaster in Madrid last year so we have experienced this type of disaster and the language used not so long ago (unfortunatley) and it was nothing like this.

I feel there is more to this than meets the eye and hopefully the truth will hit the mainstream.

I also find it very weird the amount of different nationalities on the plane. 26 Germans going to Paris yet there was a lufthansa flight 30 mins beforehand?? Just asking??

Hugs and love to all the people and families who have been affected by this.

It would be intresting to know who was on board the plane?......
webbot talked about disaperences starting to happen this year !

reply to post by weedwhacker


all im going on is the last ACARS , which was auto @ 02.14z , turbulance reported at 02.00z from the TS , now why the heck they were in a TS unless they couldn`t go around , the CB was FL510 so going over was a none issue - it wasn`t gonna happen.

something happened and fast - as said elsewhere aircraft don`t have total fire alarm systems , a big what if - what if a fire from lightning that wasn`t reported?

i still think it shook itself apart.

too fast for anything to reprt.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


whilst i applaud your optimism sir , looking at the facts then it would be a true miracle , one from the lord , to save those souls.


the final report of the aircraft at 35000 feet @ 453 knots with electrical failure and was losing pressure.

does not fill me with the same hope.

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

I'm rather bothered that they have been rather quick to declare it lost and everyone dead without any information other than a disappearance with little to no information.

It's just realism. At 35,000ft in darkness you cannot just glide down and ditch.

Electrical failure in darkness at 35,000 feet means loss of autopilot and at very high altitudes loss of autopilot means the aircraft cannot be flown precisely within the narrow range of airspeed called Mach Box.

At high altitude the maximum cruise speed of an A330 is 500 knots. The stall speed is something like 460 knots. The long range cruise speed is 470knots. If the autopilot falls off line in darkness and in turbulence, then it's quite likely the aircraft would lose speed and drop below stall speed.

Stalling an aircraft at 460 knots in darkness makes recovery impossible. The aircraft would begin to roll and tumble and within a couple of revolutions literally fall apart.

The names they revealed were only the more "famous" ones, I wouldn't expect to see a full list any time soon, not only for ethics but simply because it probably wouldn't be that good of a news to publish.

Another thing, since a full system failure would be almost impossible to "just happen", doesn't this increase the chance of it being an explosion (or may just a simple fire that got out of control)? Or of course, freaky weather.

Originally posted by Irish Matador


I also find it very weird the amount of different nationalities on the plane. 26 Germans going to Paris yet there was a lufthansa flight 30 mins beforehand?? Just asking??

Um, what's so weird about that? Air France was probably cheaper, or maybe the were on an iternierary of some sort. Nothing odd there.

I'm American. Why do I fly back home on British Airways from heathrow when there American Airlines flights out of there? Because BA does the cheapest nonstop from heathrow to Sea-Tac flight available. that's why.

reply to post by sy.gunson


stalling a fighter jet - even an F-22 , at 460 knots in darkness IMO would result in a hull loss.

Originally posted by sy.gunson


It's just realism. At 35,000ft in darkness you cannot just glide down and ditch.

No, realism is if they had evidence of catastrophic disaster, such as mid air collision, explosion, ect. Then it would be realistic to assume no one survived.

They still don't know what happened, where exactly it happened, or why. And just because it might be very difficult to glide and ditch at night does not mean impossible, either.

Electrical failure in darkness at 35,000 feet means loss of autopilot and at very high altitudes loss of autopilot means the aircraft cannot be flown precisely within the narrow range of airspeed called Mach Box.

Planes have back-up systems for electrical stuff, and further more, we don't know what altitude it was at, only the last known altitude. beyond that, they haven't a clue.

At high altitude the maximum cruise speed of an A330 is 500 knots. The stall speed is something like 460 knots. The long range cruise speed is 470knots. If the autopilot falls off line in darkness and in turbulence, then it's quite likely the aircraft would lose speed and drop below stall speed.

Stalling an aircraft at 460 knots in darkness makes recovery impossible. The aircraft would begin to roll and tumble and within a couple of revolutions literally fall apart.

Again, we know nothing at this point. The plane simply "vanished" from radar, according to the news reports. If it fell apart, radar would still pick up the falling body as it descended.

OK, just saw this, it was confirmed that a pilot from another commercial flight saw "orange dots" on the ocean half an hour after the automatic messages.

Orange dots, parts of plane on fire?

If anybody cares, here is the link (portuguese)

g1.globo.com...

Following that one, another flight confirmed fire in the ocean before that, but it was vague.

g1.globo.com...

[edit on 1-6-2009 by Raziel89]

reply to post by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf


Have you seen the list?? There are around 32 different nationalities.

I understand the concept of cheap flights and availability but I was just pointing it out.

Take a look at other crashes and see the difference. I was only making an observation so keep your sarcasam for the children. Thanks

[edit on 1-6-2009 by Irish Matador]

reply to post by Raziel89


Well if you hit turbulence in an aircraft at 470 knots or whatever speed we're talking then you get structural damage. That would likely include damage to wiring and systems.

Pilots are taught to reduce speed when penetrating turbulence but that's a dilema if you can't reduce speed because the air is so thin.