Air France Plane down

reply to post by BingeBob

"Investigators haven't found water in the victims' lungs which rules out death due to drowning. Most bodies were also found naked or with minimal clothing, suggesting the wind may have removed the garments. Multiple fractures on almost all the bodies also suggest that the plane encountered a violent turbulence before it crashed," the official said.

www.ibtimes.co.in...

In the aftermath of hurricanes here on Earth we fing amazing things -- like a wood 2X4 piercing a concrete wall, for instance.

Imagine a human body being subjected to winds FOUR times stronger than hurricane-force!!!

There will likely be no way to positively describe the entire sequence of the in-flight break up. However, the identity and probable location of each victim that is recovered will provide clues.

I don't know if anyone else has read this anywhere, but apparently Air France has disclosed that just 3 days afterwards they found that another of their aircraft had its fire detection/prevention cables "mailiciously cut"...
I can't remember who the source was.


It takes some serious knowledge to be able to sabotage an aircraft like that.. so perhaps sabotage on this AF-447 isnt out of the question after all...

To re-iterate my view on this, it wasn't ANY form of lightning, High Intensity Radiated Frequency, Solar Flare or EM related. I believe that the unltimate demise of the aircraft was in structural failure after pulling a maneuvre WELL outside of its flight box.

Sabotage is an interesting question though, to know which parts of your wiring harness relate to which system requires training, if someone really sabotaged a fire control system you can imagine that there was probably something that would assist in causing a fire on that aircraft too.. if the system is no longer able to sense the fires then it wont report it, certainly not back to the maintanence hangars.. This means that by cutting the wires and cleverly placing your timed incendiary you can trigger an in flight fire that could take out the rest of the electrical controls (which would be noticed by the system) but the resulting loss of AP, and on board fire would likely have the flight crew so busy that they wouldnt even have the time or thought to transmit any emergency messages (which devices could equally be sabotaged)... Your plane is thrust out of its cruise altitude with limited controlability into a storm front, with a malicious electrical fire... I think that is a pretty brutal set of circumstances..

To Carson from Scott: Air France Accident
Writer / Reporter below says: Hey!! If it ain't Boeing I ain't going. Please forward for comments.
__________________
With Boeings, you can’t even shoot the tail off them with a magazine full of cannon and .50 cal.
BAT
(Interesting speculation on the use of composite materials in the Airbus rudder and elevator assemblies…..)
JD
___________________
Subject: Air France Accident: Smoking Gun Found
A Brazilian Naval unit reportedly found the complete vertical fin/rudder assembly of the doomed aircraft floating some 30 miles from the main debris field. The search for the flight recorders goes on, but given the failure history of the vertical fins on A300-series aircraft, an analysis of its structure at the point of failure will likely yield the primary cause factor in
The breakup of the aircraft, with the flight recorder data (if found) providing only secondary contributing phenomena.
The fin-failure-leading-to-breakup sequence is strongly suggested in the attached (below) narrative report by George Larson, Editor emeritus of Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine.
It's regrettable that these aircraft are permitted to continue in routine flight operations with this known structural defect. It appears that safety finishes last within Airbus Industries, behind national pride and economics. Hopefully, this accident will force the issue to be addressed, requiring at a minimum restricted operations of selected platforms, and grounding of some high-time aircraft until a re-engineered (strengthened) vertical fin/rudder attachment structure can be incorporated.
Les
--------------------------(George Larson's Report)---------------------
This is an account of a discussion I had recently with a maintenance professional who salvages airliner airframes for a living. He has been at it for a while, dba BMI Salvage at Opa Locka Airport in Florida. In the process of stripping parts, he sees things few others are able to see. His observations confirm prior assessments of Airbus structural deficiencies within our flight test and aero structures communities by those who have seen the closely held reports of A3XX-series vertical fin failures.
His observations:

"I have scrapped just about every type of transport aircraft from A-310,
A-320, B-747, 727, 737, 707, DC-3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, MD-80, L-188, L1011
and various Martin, Convair and KC-97 aircraft. Over a hundred of them.
Airbus products are the flimsiest and most poorly designed as far as
airframe structure is concerned by an almost obsession to utilize composite
materials. I have one A310 vertical fin on the premises from a demonstration I just performed. It was pathetic to see the composite structure shatter as it did, something a Boeing product will not do. The vertical fin along with the composite hinges on rudder and elevators is
the worst example of structural use of composites I have ever seen and I am
not surprised by the current pictures of rescue crews recovering the complete Vertical fin and rudder assembly at some distance from the crash site.

The Airbus line has a history of both multiple rudder losses and a vertical
fin and rudder separation from the airframe as was the case in NY with AA. As an old non-radar equipped DC4 pilot who flew through many a thunderstorm in Africa along the equator, I am quite familiar with their ferocity. It is not difficult to understand how such a storm might have stressed an aircraft structure to failure at its weakest point, and especially so in the presence of instrumentation problems.

I replied with this:

"I'm watching very carefully the orchestration of the inquiry by French
officials and Airbus. I think I can smell a concerted effort to steer
discussion away from structural issues and onto sensors, etc. Now Air
France, at the behest of their pilots' union, is replacing all the air data
sensors on the Airbus fleet, which creates a distraction and shifts the media's focus away from the real problem.
It's difficult to delve into the structural issue without wading into the
Boeing vs. Airbus swamp, where any observation is instantly tainted by its
origin. Americans noting any Airbus structural issues (A380 early failure
of wing in static test; loss of vertical surfaces in Canadian fleet prior to
AA A300, e.g.) will be attacked by the other side as partisan, biased, etc. "
His follow-up:

One gets a really unique insight into structural issues when one has
first-hand experience in the dismantling process. I am an A&P, FEJ and an ATP with 7000 flight hours and I was absolutely stunned, flabbergasted when I realized that the majority of internal airframe structural supports on the A 310 which appear to be aluminum are
actually rolled composite material with aluminum rod ends. They shattered.

Three years ago we had a storm come through, with gusts up to 60-70 kts., catching several A320s tied down on the line, out in the open. The A320 elevators and rudder hinges whose actuators had been removed shattered and the rudder and elevators came off.
Upon closer inspection I realized that not only were the rear spars
composite but so were the hinges. While Boeing also uses compositematerial in its airfoil structures, the actual attach fittings for the elevators, rudder, vertical and horizontal stabilizers are all of machined aluminum."
-----------------(end of narrative)---------------
Who is Carson Dane?

I fail to see the relevance of your above blatantly anti-Airbus article.
The A330 had been around since around '97. The A300 was back in '69, likewise the initial A320 is from back in the 80's.
Comparing the structural properties of composites used in these craft is a waste of time because technologyu has moved on so much.
Apart from the A300 all the examples he cites are from aircraft in a breakers yard at the end of their lives with the actuators removed!
If he cared to do his research he would know that on an A320 the only thing holding the horizontal stabilizer in position is the HUGE screw actuator that he removed, the hinges are exactly that, hinges, and are not designed to be load bearing, ditto with the rudder flaps.
Obviously because of his blatant scare-mongering he isnt mentioning Boeing aircraft and the myriad of faults that occur in those.

Anyone remember that Greek 737, Air Stelios i think, that had everybody die because the warning for depressurisation was the same as the take-off config warning, so the pilots took off and set autopilot and then within minutes everybody had suffocated because the plane depressurised and the pilots didnt know.
There is also the 747's that have their engines drop off mid flight. 777's have recently had their share of problems.

But of course if you are on Boeing's payroll, Boeing's are obviously the better plane..

Objectively both manufacturers make good aircraft, currently Boeing's fleet is in need of a technological injection (represented by teh much delayed 787) but that aside they both make equally good airframes.

For any specific route one maufacturers aircraft might be better than the others, which is why airlines generally speaking buy from both. If one manufacturer was better, this wouldnt be the case.

It's a duopoly for a reason.

Yeah, CloudySkye, it's cool: I don't work for the aircraft industry. Rather, I was just passing along what had been forwarded to me - pro boeing to say the least, but also something new to the topic to share, not having a strong personal opinion about it one way or the other.

reply to post by CloudySkye

Anyone remember that Greek 737, Air Stelios i think, that had everybody die because the warning for depressurisation was the same as the take-off config warning, so the pilots took off and set autopilot and then within minutes everybody had suffocated because the plane depressurised and the pilots didnt know.

I'll withhold comment on your other points, but I am intriqued by this, because I hadn't heard of it. (I'll look it up later)

Was it the older 737 (-300 series) or EFIS or even NG? If they had a Config warning, why did they take off? The Config is only active in ground mode. It looks at Parking Brake, Flap position and Speed Brake handle position. AND there's either a red light that says 'Config', or on the EFIS and NG, it displays on the CRTs.

Also, in flight, if Cabin Altitude exceeds 10,000 you're right, same audible warning, but again, a visual 'Cab Alt' message. Above 14,000 the masks in the cabin are triggered automatically. Most people won't pass out at 14,000. AND the cabin crew would have both the PSU masks, and the POB (portable oxygen bottles)...they'd certainly have alerted the cockpit....?

Crashed jet black box signals 'located'

SIGNALS from the flight data recorders of the Air France airliner that crashed into the Atlantic killing all 228 people on board have been located, Le Monde newspaper said on its website today.

An Air France spokeswoman said she could not confirm the report.

Le Monde said French naval vessels had picked up a weak signal from the "black boxes" and that a mini submarine had been dispatched yesterday to try and find them on the bottom of the rugged ocean floor.

The "black boxes" may contain vital information that could help explain what happened when the Airbus A330 aircraft crashed into the sea en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris on June 1.

www.news.com.au...

One more source:

Report: Signals heard from Flight 447 black boxes

another source:

uk.news.yahoo.com...


its breaking on the MSM now

all citing le monde

Signals have been picked up from the black boxes of the Air France plane which crashed into the Atlantic, according to reports. Skip related content
French naval vessels detected a weak signal from the flight data recorders, Le Monde newspaper said.

A mini-submarine, the Nautile, has been sent to try to find the boxes on the bottom of the ocean floor

uk.news.yahoo.com...

Sounds detected in the Atlantic did not come from the black boxes of the Air France plane which crashed into the ocean, a French official has said

a moment of hope in these day events has been dashed

Which leaves the question. If it wasnt signals from the Black Box from the sea bed, what the hell is it?

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread: Two key figures in the global battle against illegal arms trade was on Flight 447...


Related post

reply to post by Hellmutt


many times in this thread actually

its with a heavy heart i must report:

www.flightglobal.com...


Surface search for A330 wreckage called off after 26 days

Brazilian forces have called off the surface search for wreckage and victims from the crashed Air France Airbus A330, although the sub-sea effort to locate the flight recorders is continuing.

Fifty-one bodies and more than 600 structural parts of the aircraft, as well as items of baggage, have been retrieved during the 26-day search operation since the crash on 1 June

they searched for 26 days , night and day - but haven`t found anything else since teh 19th - given the current and winds , the debris field would be hundreds of miles by now.


kudos for brazil for trying so hard.

may 3 2011, they found 1 one the black boxes does anybody know if they got useful info from it?

www.whatsonsanya.com...

here is a 2nd one and they interviewed a pilot for his analysis of what happened www.guardian.co.uk...

there was triple back up why did they all fail?

Originally posted by Did you see them

Air France Plane down

Air France Plane Missing with 215 people on board

(visit the link for the full news article)

There have been alot of planes going down since 2008, from what I'm noticing it is probably is due to lack of care, also, 215 people died, 2+1+5=8

I have no hard evidence, but it seems as though Air France sure has a lot of "pilot error" crashes. More than I would expect from a "top echelon" airline.

This is just one in a long list of Air France accidents contributed, at least in part, to the pilot's decision making.