If they aren't real Christians then who are they???

Nobody is a true Christian, because nobody knows exactly what Jesus said - or if he even said them. The bible started off as a compromise by committee of the scriptures from the various Christian sects to form a single orthodoxy. The vast majority of Christian factions splintered off from that orthodoxy to have various differing bibles in multiple different languages and translations. Not to mention that the bible is so vague to begin with that any particular interpretation you glean from it will justifiable in your eyes, but heretical to others.

In these regards, those who help the poor and feed the hungry are no different that the Westborough Baptists or the Abortion Clinic bombers - though the actions of the former are much more palatable to the society we've created than the latter examples.

In essence, to call someone "not a true Christian" is merely an apologetic line used as a PR move to cover your pious butt when one of your fellow parishioners/believers takes a certain interpretation of scripture and applies it in a way that is NOT within the bounds of acceptable social norms - or worships Christianity in a different way than which you've been indoctrinated into.

Indeed, from my experience, very few (if any) Christians truly even strive to exemplify the archetype character they've assembled - let alone can lay claim to being Christian in the sense that a historic (if he existed) Christ actually lived. Most people of this caliber, I notice, are usually of other (usually Eastern) religions like Mahatmas Gandhi or the Dali Lama - or of no religion at all. I would wager at least 75%+ of the faith are only Christian due to the "get out of hell free" card that it gives them - and they abuse it. A substantial %'age of the rest are only Christian because they get something out of it... like an ego boost or money in the case of the Evangelicals. Not to mention the "perks of prayer". At least in my area of the world, I notice many people pray to beseech a favor from God on their behalf - be it to win a war, save a loved one, or win the lotto - or they pray to kiss up to god in hopes of reinforcing that aforementioned hell dodge. Many only pray simply out of tradition or ritual. Rarely does anyone seem to pray out genuine admiration, humble appreciation, ardent gratitude, or love for their chosen deity.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by Lasheic]

Well i think that God is gonna know whos heart is true or not

He knows all remember that!

Originally posted by Sundancer

Seems to me believing in god gives you a licence to kill, steal, lie,
have sex with children, do drugs, get drunk, and whatever else you
choose as long as you say your prayers every night. So why do I always
hear people say "he or she is not a real Christian"?

If there was a religion designed by the devil to deceive the common
man wouldn't it be Christianity?

1st you need to understand that 80% of people are dumb as a box of rocks. The other 20% are preditors who make their living by telling lies to the gullible 80%. Amongst the top 20% their is a division. Those who care and those who do not. Amonst the the top 20% is where the spiritiual warfare is taking place.

Do you have a concience or do you not?

Which side will win?

Agnostics take a wait and see attitude.

Athiests are in denial.

Christians take a stance - right or wrong.

Jews are just plain wrong.

Hindus are evil.

Muslims are evil.

Pagans are ignorant.

etc....

So I marry your daughter, treat her like a worthless slave, murder your friends and take your stuff. Am I bad guy or is your daughter a worthless whore who won't stand up for herself?

To answer your question 80% of christians are cattle, sheep, dummies, easily manipulated or whatever you want to call them.

You have a friend in christ.

"I will fight to the death, you will not." And that, my friends, is the truth.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by In nothing we trust]

reply to post by Lasheic

The bible started off as a compromise by committee of the scriptures from the various Christian sects to form a single orthodoxy.

The early church was always unified. There wasn't a need to form a "single orthodoxy". It's apparent that by the time the council of Nicea rolled around, 23 of the 27 NT books were accepted as Scripture. The other four--2/3 John, Jude, 2 Peter--were being discussed because some had issue with them. By the time the council ended, the church as a whole agreed on the 27 books that we call the New Testament.

The vast majority of Christian factions splintered off from that orthodoxy to have various differing bibles in multiple different languages and translations.

While there may be different denominaitons, for the most part, if you talk to a Baptist, a Methodist, or a Lutheran, you will see that all three believe essentially the same thing. The differences lay mostly in the time and manner of Christ's return. The Bibles that the different denominations use don't differ either. A King James is a King James no matter what church I sit down in. Having the Bible in a local language is a natural thing to have because not everyone knows, or has the desire to learn, Greek and Hebrew.

Since all Bibles are translated from essentially the same texts, I can take my German "Die Gute Nachricht" put it next to the English Standard Version, and next to that lay a Hungarian Károli Szent Biblia, and they're going to say the same thing.

Not to mention that the bible is so vague to begin with that any particular interpretation you glean from it will justifiable in your eyes, but heretical to others.

The Bible only seems vague to those who interpret allegorically. While it's true that two people may look at the Bible literally and arrive at different conclusions, that doesn't mean that it's vague, nor does it mean that one is a heretic. I have plenty of friends who I have slight theological disagreements with. That doesn't change the fellowship that I have with them. And it doesn't get in the way of our working for, and worshiping Christ together. When we look at the Bible, we often hold onto some presuppositions, which is normal, one can't ever be 100% objective. This accounts for a majority of the minor disagreements among Christians today. I want to reiterate that a majority of the disagreements among Christians are minor. All the Christian denominations agree on the same basics. And it's the basics that count. I had a professor in college who used to say, "Thank God that we don't need to be theologians to get to heaven!" Amen.

The heretics come when they deny something about Jesus that is plainly taught in Scripture.

Indeed, from my experience, very few (if any) Christians truly even strive to exemplify the archetype character they've assembled - let alone can lay claim to being Christian in the sense that a historic (if he existed) Christ actually lived.

I'm sorry that you've encountered Christians like that. You must remember though that you haven't met every Christian in the world. There are plenty that strive to be like Christ. That take their faith seriously. [Oddly enough, it's usually us that take our faith seriously that get ridiculed by the world and people get angry at!]

I would wager at least 75%+ of the faith are only Christian due to the "get out of hell free" card that it gives them - and they abuse it.

Simply labeling yourself Christian isn't what saves you. You have to actually believe that Christ died for your sins and you must accept that you can only get to heaven through him. The notion that religion is what saves is a myth. A relationship with Jesus Christ, the Messiah, is what matters. The will be plenty at the judgment that say, "Lord, Lord," but Jesus will turn them away because he never knew them.

A substantial %'age of the rest are only Christian because they get something out of it... like an ego boost or money in the case of the Evangelicals.

Again, not all Evangelicals are how you describe. In fact, what you're thinking of, the Televangelists, usually belong to one of two groups. Pentecostals or Charismatics.

I'm an evangelical, but I don't get any perk from it. I sure don't get an ego boost. I've not made a lot of money being evangelical. Acquiring these things are not why I'm evangelical though. Evangelical comes from the Greek word, ευαγγελιον, and it roughly means good message. I'm and evangelical because I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ and that this is revealed in the New Testament and I seek, and pray, that all would come to know Jesus as Messiah.

Not to mention the "perks of prayer". At least in my area of the world, I notice many people pray to beseech a favor from God on their behalf - be it to win a war, save a loved one, or win the lotto - or they pray to kiss up to god in hopes of reinforcing that aforementioned hell dodge. Many only pray simply out of tradition or ritual. Rarely does anyone seem to pray out genuine admiration, humble appreciation, ardent gratitude, or love for their chosen deity.

This is true all over the world. People pray this way because they don't have a good understanding of God [people tend to view him as a person that's to grant their wishes] and they don't understand the purpose of prayer. There is nothing wrong with asking God for things--Jesus even said this. But the twist is that if one is truly walking with Christ, our desire will line up with his so we won't pray to win the lotto. We will however pray that someone would be healed, for example. Adoration is needed in prayer as well because when we pray, we're talking to the creator of the universe! We also need to confess our sins when we pray, otherwise our relationship with God won't be what it should.

reply to post by Sundancer


Here is a picture of a real Christian, someone who really believes in Jesus Christ:

Always love your fellow human.

Always forgive your fellow human.

Always bless your fellow human.

This is very difficult.

On Faith alone?

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works?
Can his faith save him?
If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
So faith by itself, if it has not works, is dead.
But someone will say: 'You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.' You believe that God is one; you do well.
Even the demons believe—and shudder.
Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son, Isaac, upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone, as we said a short time ago.
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead [cf. Jas 2:14-24, 26]
link
source

Hi/
One can easily say they have faith, and keep on living life as they please...does this mean that faith alone gets them on the side of God?
I don't think so.
I can have all the faith I want,but with nothing to show for it, where does this leave me?
I have no faith, but have plenty of good deeds to show for it,Does this help me any better?
It is through the grace of God, Lord Jesus Christ....
quote///“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have access by faith through grace” (Romans 5: 1,2).
“For what the law could not do … God did by sending His own
Son” (Romans 8:3)

reply to post by octotom


I don't have time to write a full reply right now as I have family visiting, but I will return later tonight or possibly tomorrow. I do have quite a bit of disagreement with your response, but for now I merely wanted to say that a coherent, rational, and well-structured retort is a welcome sight here in the frenzied wilds. I look forward to discussing this matter with you shortly. In the meantime, you get a star from me.

reply to post by helen670

Hi/
One can easily say they have faith, and keep on living life as they please...does this mean that faith alone gets them on the side of God?
I don't think so.

...

You're correct that simply saying that you have faith isn't enough to get us right with God. I can say that I have faith, but if I really don't, it doesn't mean much. Just like I can tell people I meet on the street, that I never see again, that I have a 3000 inch plasma screen TV, that doesn't make it true.

There are several passages of scripture that indicate that faith alone can save.

John 3.16 (ESV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Believing in the Son of God [Jesus] gives eternal life. This came right from Jesus' mouth, so, if works were necessary, it's interesting that Jesus didn't mention it.

Ephesians 2.8-9 (ESV):

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

In this passage, Paul is agreeing with Jesus--faith alone is what saves us. The reason being that salvation is a gift from God. If we have any part in getting or keeping salvation, it's not God's gift anymore. We earned it, and this could enable us to boast because, it's obvious that some do more works than others.

Acts 2.21 (ESV)

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Granted, this verse is referring more toward the end times, it is interesting to note that Peter makes it clear that even then, people will be saved by calling on Jesus, whom is Lord.

Romans 10.9 (ESV)

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Confessing with the mouth here isn't a work. According to Dr. Thomas Constable:

"Confess" means to say the same thing about something as someone else does (Gr. homologeo; cf. 1 John 1:9). In this context it refers to saying the same thing about Jesus Christ as other believers in Him do. It is an
acknowledgment of one's faith in Christ. Obedient Christians in the early
church made this confession verbally and in water baptism, as we do today
(cf. Matt. 28:19-20).

So, confessing with the mouth is a confession of something that's already happened. The belief that Jesus Christ is Lord and Messiah. Paul confirms again that one is saved through faith alone, in Christ alone.

It's interesting that you brought up James 2.17:

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Dead here in this case means useless. So, a faith without works is a useless faith, or it's dormant. A faith without works doesn't benefit the body at all, which is the context of the preceding passage. One of the goals in the Christian life is to build up the body of Christ.

I agree with you that if a person is truly saved, there will be works that accompany it. However, the works aren't a condition for salvation. Only faith is and if someone is truly saved, the works will come as the person continues to grow in Christ.

Jesus came and Im hoping somethign good will quash the accusers who want a mssive overreaching system of greed, belittlement, elitism and unneccessary control of a world of there own hypocrisy in creating all the degradation through decades of dehumanising wars and such, christianity should not have bars, or windows. or walls. all it needs is a song in its heart, the rest are vulchers who circle what they hope will be there lunch. Christ died to save the thieves, the addicts, the pervoids, the lost, the found need to find there own way, they seem to enjoy themselves over the rational thought of living without manipulation of others.

[edit on 30-5-2009 by mastermind77]

Here's a brief summery of the answers given so far.

Most people who answered this post believe your actions are an important part of being saved, along with your belief that Christ is your savior. Others believe your belief that Christ is your savior alone will get you into heaven. Many believe you don't have to worship in a church to be a "real Christian. I personally don't have the answers but I very much appreciate everyone's opinions and input. It gave me a fresh and more positive look at Christianity.
Thank you all.

reply to post by Sundancer


You're welcome. I'm happy that I was able to help you some.

Originally posted by Sundancer
Here's a brief summery of the answers given so far.

Most people who answered this post believe your actions are an important part of being saved, along with your belief that Christ is your savior. Others believe your belief that Christ is your savior alone will get you into heaven. Many believe you don't have to worship in a church to be a "real Christian.
...
It gave me a fresh and more positive look at Christianity.
Thank you all.

Here's my two cents. Firstly, Jesus told a story, called the Parable of the Sower. In his explanation to his disciples, he describe those who "received the seed into stony places" (vv20-21) as they that receive the gospel with joy, but fall away offended, when hard times arise, because their "roots" don't go deep enough.

Immediately after presenting this explanation, he presented the Parable of the Tares (Weeds), where he again presents false disciples (v25), who appear to be genuine, until further inspection (see Jesus' explanation (v38). To make sense of this seemingly innocent parable, you need to understand that the tares (eg, bearded darnel) spoken of appear to be wheat, and yet are completely void of seed (which is the fruit of the wheat plant).

Because the Bible presents a gospel to conditions salvation on repentance (seeing sin as G-d sees it, and turning from it), faith (trusting in the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice as able to atone for those sins), and regeneration (having been inwardly changed by the Holy Spirit, resulting in a change of behaviour), then the idea that someone can "get saved" and then go out and commit sin with a "get out of hell free card", is utterly ludicrous. Carrying that kind of attitude into a "Christian life" betrays a lack of repentance, and demonstrates that no regeneration has occurred.

The another issue is that of "faith vs works". Even though the "process" of salvation begins with repentance, the Bible says that "godly sorrow works repentance". In other words, unless G-d draws our attention to our sin, producing sorrow, whether by Himself, through a preacher, or even a poster on a forum , our repentance is meaningless to Him, as it fails to lead us to faith in Christ. St Paul wrote that we are "saved by grace through faith" leaving no room for us to boost about our contribution, but then having been saved by grace, we do works prepared for us. So its "faith first" and "works later".

This is what is meant about being "born again". We are regenerated to become "new creatures" in G-d's eyes. Our nature is changed from one disposed to disobey G-d, to become one the desires to please Him. For the unregenerate man, the commandments that say "you shall not" read like a threat, but to the regenerate, they read as a promise that G-d will do everything He can to help them obey.

I hope that gives some clues as to the wold "true and false" thing. Nothing to do with church attendance, however those who know and love Him tend to want to spend a lot of time with other believers.

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Sundancer

 

Depends on who you ask

If you ask the Phelps family, they will say they are real Christians.

If you ask Pat Robertson he will say he is a real Christian.

If you ask the KKK they will say they are real Christians.

Anyone sensing a trend here?

It's a religious ideology, in that general ideology there are splinter groups that twist those general beliefs to their own idea of what a Real Christian is.

Charles Manson is a convicted killer. He is male and white. Should we lump all white males into this category?

There are, I'm sure, atheist KKK'ers - should we lump all atheists into the KKK pile, or all the KKK'ers into the atheist pile?

Mother Teresa was an elderly white woman whose claim was being a saint - should we assume that all elderly white women are saints?

Notice a trend?

It is unfair to 'pick n choose' a select few individuals and attempt to twist random facts in favor of your agenda.

The answer to this question is very simple.

"False Christians"

Determining who they are is much harder.

For an unrepentant murdering serial rapist who claims to be a christian, it's easy.

What about a soldier who claims to be christian who goes over to a foreign land and kills there fellowman, at the request of there government, because they told them to do it? They feel no remorse of these actions, that they are 100% justified.

What about a woman who claims to be christian is immoral and then as a result has an abortion? Again they feel justified and no remorse.

Anybody can say they believe in God and accept Jesus as their personal savior.

Actions determine who real Christians are, not words or even a persons beliefs.

The demons believed in Jesus too, they knew and understood the truth too.
And that isn't going to help them at all.
Understanding the bible, and belief in God and Jesus, has never been enough to make somebody a "real christian".

Actions, works, how we feel about our mistakes that are major sins, these are all determining factors weather we get judged as real Christians by God.

Once saved always saved, is a huge dogmatic lie.

From what I have observed on this world, those who say that they are true Christians are often not.

Those who doubt that they are, that they will not be able to do enough good to ever reach that title, are the ones who are true Christians.

It is the doubt that makes us try to be better then we are, makes us do more in the spirit of Christ.
The certainty that we have attained that goal makes us lazy and ignorant to the possibilites of what might still be done.

Originally posted by laura petrie
From what I have observed on this world, those who say that they are true Christians are often not.

Those who doubt that they are, that they will not be able to do enough good to ever reach that title, are the ones who are true Christians.

Truly wise words. Scripture puts it this way "Be careful if you think you stand, lest you fall."

I was only just having this discussion with a friend lately, that my observation is the a Christianity without a healthy fear that we might not actually be saved, is questionable, at best. I am reminded of the story Jesus told of the Pharisee who came to the Temple to pray, almost as if he was commending G-d for His "wonderful choice of disciple", while the tax collector beat his breast, daring not to even lift his head, saying only, "Have mercy on me, L-rd. A sinner."

"It is a fearful thing, to fall into the hands of the living G-d." Fear the one who knows not that fear.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Actions determine who real Christians are, not words or even a persons beliefs.

At the risk of being accused of pedantry, I would modify this statement to say, "Actions prove who real Christians are." It is the Christian's "beliefs" that determine his authenticity, but his actions which are contradictory to his beliefs, demonstrate the falsity of his beliefs. Not that the object of his belief is false, but that he does not believe them, in actuality.

Once saved always saved, is a huge dogmatic lie.

Not to contradict you statement, per se, but how to you explain Romans 8:38-39?

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of G-d, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

This list seems pretty inclusive, so what can cause one to lose his salvation (ie, separate us from the love of G-d)? What Scriptural precedent justifies this statement?

Hebrews 10:26 for if we sin wilfully after that we have recieved the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

KJV

reply to post by Sundancer


Good question Sundancer. First lets take a stab at figuring out what a "real Christian" is.

This was seen as a vitally important point at the very birth of the new religion. What started out as a Jewish sect had a lot of growing up to do when Paul dragged it out into the Gentile world. By the time it had gained political power and was the official religion of the empire, it really needed a definition to distinguish and protect itself from imposters. So at Nicea in 325 they came up with this:

The Nicean Creed:

1. We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
   
2. By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
   
3. Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
   
4. He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
   
5. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
   
6. And in the Holy Ghost.
   

Some time later the following was added to repudiate the Arian heresy:

7. But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.

This was revised several other times over the next century or so, including changing the "And in the Holy Ghost" phrase to:

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.

Which was a major point of contention in the split between the Eastern and Western churches.

An alternate creed, written about the same time as the Nicean Creed, is quite popular today in several forms in both the Roman and Protestant churches:

The Apostles Creed (United Methodist Church version)

1. I believe in God the Father Almighty,
   
2. maker of heaven and earth;
   
   
3. And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord:
   
4. who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
   
5. born of the Virgin Mary,
   
6. suffered under Pontius Pilate,
   
7. was crucified, dead, and buried;
   
8. the third day he rose from the dead;
   
9. he ascended into heaven,
   
10. and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    
11. from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    
    
12. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    
13. the holy catholic church,
    
14. the communion of saints,
    
15. the forgiveness of sins,
    
16. the resurrection of the body,
    
17. and the life everlasting. Amen.
    

You will notice that none of those Creeds commits a Christian to belief in the Bible as Holy Scripture, nor of a belief in a young earth, nor of a hatred of homosexuals, nor to vote for George Bush. It doesn't even commit a Christian to believe the words of Christ as passed down by tradition in the New Testament.

The main effect of the Creed is to bind the believer to the Church, the one and only catholic (universal) church. They are a loyalty oaths that define Christians as those who believe and obey what the Church tells them to believe and obey.

So people who claim that their Christianity compel them to believe anything that is NOT in the Creed are simply INCORRECT and don't understand the true source of their beliefs. It is not the Christian religion that is telling them to believe those things, it is the Church.

Furthermore, if they are professing beliefs that the Church does not promote then they are HERETICS.

Finally, if they are professing beliefs that the Church does promote, and behave in a way completely contrary to that profession, they are LIARS, HYPOCRITES, SINNERS, DAMNED.




[edit on 24/7/2009 by rnaa]

reply to post by rnaa


Hi rnaa/

And you got all your information from?
Which church?
Condemned indeed!
First of all the Nicene Creed is to Profess that one is truly a Christian...the Whole CREED is actually taken from SCRIPTURE!
Every word from the Creed is TAKEN from the Bible.

ICXC NIKA
helen

EDIT.....To add what you quoted as I misquoted you in this post,You said///
''Finally, if they are professing beliefs that the Church does promote, and behave in a way completely contrary to that profession, they are LIARS, HYPOCRITES, SINNERS, DAMNED''

The Church works with the people....NEVER alone to DAMN the people!
We are all sinners and this is a struggle for everyone...the CHURCH is as Christ said it was to be like....Christ is seen as the Church and as a priestly figure,a Father to His Flock eg/the Chosen Apostels to do as He did!!!
The Orthodox Church is ....the building itself,the rituals, the candle sticks,the priests,the clothing of special significant meanings are all TAKEN from Juidism....it became the NEW COVENANT.
Also added the Symbol of Faith ~Creed`in Scripture



[edit on 7/24/2009 by helen670]

[edit on 7/24/2009 by helen670]