If they aren't real Christians then who are they???

reply to post by octotom


I think this may answer some questions. Could you elaborate on your statement below, leaving out the Jews, JWs, LDS, and those offshoots?

"I've always thought that that is a good way to determine one's "christianness"--what they believe about Jesus."

The fact that the road is narrow and few will enter therein should be an indicator.

If someone - anyone - wants to know what a real Christian is - they should read and find out for themselves, not rely on some sky pilot to direct them.

A lot of well-meaning dumbasses followed Jim Jones, and you see what that got them.

You better know it for yourself, because come time for your face-to-face, there's not going to be any excuses of, "I didn't know," or "well Joe told me . . .," or "I thought . . ."

It's right there for the taking.

Everything you need to know - you can find out.

And what you do with that knowledge is up to you.

The New Testament is not that hard to read, if it says many time Jesus is the only way and is the Christ and only through him you can be saved why say that is not the case. If the Bible says he was born a Virgin then that is what happened why change that to what you believe?

2 Peter 2

False Teachers and Their Destruction

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
Text

reply to post by Sundancer


Traditionally, Christians have believed a couple things about Jesus, no matter the denomination, or whether they're Calvinist or Arminian. One is that he was man, entirely. Another is that he was entirely God. A third is that he physically rose from the grave--he wasn't an apparition or ghost, but a physical body. A fourth is that Jesus was preexistant before anything was created.

The "offshoots" of christianity will deny at least one, if not all of those four points.

reply to post by Sundancer


Quite the "catch 22" we have here. "Real Christians". Hmmm.

If we are to take the translations of the Bible we read today, for the sake of argument, at face value, several things come to my mind.

First, in my opinion, the word "Christian" translates "Christ-man" or "Christ-like" leading one to believe that the term "Christian" refers to ones desire to imitate "Christ".

I find that debating small details about Christ on this matter tend to lead to confusion and deviation of topic, so I would chose to define Christ on a broader scale.

He always gave an honest answer to those who sincerely questioned Him, and had very little respect for those who thought they knew it all. He was well versed in scripture, and resorted to physical violence when His sanctuary was defiled. He respected the physical bodies need for government, and defined the souls need for Him.

I am also reminded of the story of the rich man and the poor man in sanctuary. Rich man: "Thank you Lord for not making me like this poor man."(or something concieted like that). Poor man: (weeping, hits his chest)"Have mercy on me Lord, a sinner."

It is very possible that like the rich man, most people don't even know how far from the Lord their heart realy is. In spite of their bodies appearance, their soul is quite poor.

But perhaps people are being Christ like when attacking people of the church with acusations of not being Christ like. It seems the religious people are the main ones Christ had a problem with.

As stated earlier, quite the "catch 22".

reply to post by Sundancer

How could someone believe in God and the bible but not necessarily the translations passed down?

What do you mean by this? Are you referring to the King James Onlyers? Translations aren't passed down. They're created with every new generation of believers to put the ancient texts in a more contemporary vernacular so that it can be more easily understood.

How do they justify picking and choosing what parts to believe and still be Christian?

Very few Christians literally disregard parts of the Bible and not follow them. I personally as a Christian strive to follow the whole Bible. But, I understand that there are parts that aren't written for me. Namely, the Law. The Law is for the Jew. Since the Law is for the Jew, and I'm a follower of Christ, I don't have to follow it because Christ set me free from the curse of the Law.

It just seems like there should be a rule book the people can easily interpret.

The Bible is extremely easy to interpret when you take it at face value. Or in other words, interpret it literally, or as I prefer to call it, normally. There is a Bible teacher that I like who says, "The Bible says what it means and means what it says." It's when we start trying to interpret allegorically that things get all mucked up. The Bible shouldn't be viewed as a rule book either, because it really isn't. It's a letter, if you will, that God has given us to show us his plan for redemption.

Does the bible say you HAVE to worship in a church or rot in hell?

No, the Bible doesn't say that. However, in Hebrews 10.25 [ESV]:

not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

In other words, it's important for Christians to meet together to encourage one another and have fellowship with other believers. This encourages and builds up the body of Christ.

If not why do some Christians look down on those who don't worship in a church?

Because they're expecting their works to save them instead of Calvary's Cross.

reply to post by Sundancer

Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't a Christian a person who will be saved
as long as they believe Jesus is their savior and they ask to be
forgiven for their sins no matter what atrocities they commit?
Seems to me believing in god gives you a licence to kill, steal, lie,
have sex with children, do drugs, get drunk, and whatever else you
choose as long as you say your prayers every night

And the answer is......

Troll- In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory or irrelevant messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response.

[edit on 29-5-2009 by The Mack]

reply to post by The Mack

The Mack
You're insinuating I'm troll because I posted on something "controversial, inflammatory or irrelevant."
ATS is all about controversy. My post was hardly inflammatory, it was a serious question and I've received some excellent adult answers from people with more knowledge in this area than I. As for irrelevant, the people who have posted answers about their faith hardly find this irrelevant.

reply to post by The Mack


I didn't think that Sundancer was trolling mostly because, sadly, there isn't often a difference between Christians and non-Christians. I think that, after getting responses, Sundancer was rather happy to get the information.

If this is a troll, it's one of the nicer ones I've encountered on this site! The trolls that I run into will, after you answer their questions, start ridiculing me, and others, for having faith.

reply to post by octotom


Thank so much for the detail. You said "Because they're expecting their works to save them instead of Calvary's Cross."

So in your opinion can a person that does awful things, like the CEO of a company that puts poison in baby food because it's cheap filler be a "real Christian if he believes in the way of the cross and feels he's doing nothing he won't be forgiven for?

reply to post by Sundancer


I apologize for breaking in on this, but there is what is taught in the Scriptures.

One cannot "work" his way to heaven.

One cannot just get to heaven on faith alone.

One must have faith in the promise and engage in works to emulate Christ.

If one truly has faith and his life though his works, attitude, and examples are Christ-like, then Grace will do the rest.

But if you want to be and do evil, and profess something entirely different, good luck.

Your life will reflect your belief.

reply to post by Sundancer

So in your opinion can a person that does awful things, like the CEO of a company that puts poison in baby food because it's cheap filler be a "real Christian if he believes in the way of the cross and feels he's doing nothing he won't be forgiven for?

This is a very good question. It starts mixing soteriology and free-will, which makes it kinda difficult. I'll do my best to answer--and I hope it makes sense, it's late at night over here where I'm at! If the answer doesn't make sense, just let me know and I'll try to fix it up more.

In theory, yes. This is because trusting in Christ's atoning sacrifice is the only thing that is needed for salvation. As the Apostle Paul said, "for you have been saved through faith...not by works..."

But, if one is truly saved, they become a new creature in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is supposed to change a person's attitude and way of living. So, a person that is saved should have the desire to change and not do sinful things, even though they're forgiven and always will be.

This doesn't mean that a true Christian won't sin. But, if I'm proclaiming to be a Christian and (using your example) I'm intentionally putting poison in baby food, knowing that I'm going to be forgiven, I'd better check myself. That's not a good or God glorifying thing to do.

In Romans, Paul discusses salvation. At one point, after he said that God shows his grace to us by saving us though we're sinners, he rhetorically asks, "should we continue to sin so that we can let grace abound?" The answer is an emphatic, "By no means!" So, as a Christian, I should always be striving to do my very best for God and living my life without sin.

In short, in theory, yes, that CEO could truly be saved. But, his action of persistently doing something harmful [which, by the way, isn't following the Golden Rule] could through some doubt onto whether or not his decision was true, since he is willfully chosen to sin, which isn't a characteristic of Christ's followers. "We'll be known by our fruits."

reply to post by dooper

One cannot just get to heaven on faith alone

Not true.

John 3.16:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2.8-9:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 10.9:

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 2.21:

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

However, it is true that if a person is truly saved, good works will follow due to the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

reply to post by dooper


You're not breaking in on anything, I value your opinion. It sounds like your saying belief alone won't do it and neither will good works alone. Did I get that right? If I did then where is all the love, if you know what I mean? Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting Christianity down. I run into Christians all over Central America building houses for and giving medical aid to the poor. They're good in my book, but what about evil being done by those who believe they are Christian?
It just gets so confusing when your trying to figure out where you fit if you know what I mean.

reply to post by octotom


This was an excellent post, thanks so much for hanging in there with me when it's so late there and you'd probably rather be asleep. I appreciate it. Catch you tomorrow

reply to post by Sundancer


You're welcome. To be honest, I love discussing my faith and Apologetics more than sleep a lot of the time! I'll probably be up for a few more minutes so if you have anything you still want to ask, just do it, or send me a u2u.

reply to post by Silver Shadow


Loved your post, I tend to lean in the same direction, I'm not considered a Christian by most and that's ok. But I would like to know what makes the "real Christians" real apart from the others?

reply to post by Sundancer


Great question !!
I myself consider myself a christian, and I have a hard time with that "license to sin"
To "ME" You can read read the bible you can go to church, but when you have a spiritual awakening, everything changes

ITS more like GOD, "JESUS" is your everything ( kinda like a parent to a one or two year old) You trust him to make every Life decision for you..
In return you would do nothing to "DISAPPOINT this BEING. Its all about putting your life in his"its" whoevers hands, and you let go!!!
a lot of people think you confess your sins and everything is fine and dandy, know now that there is a "spiritual comfort that when you feel it you know!!

A true Christian has the mind of Christ. They do good not because they want a ticket to heaven but because they want to live up to the example led by Christ and because its the right thing to do.

They would not believe in worshiping God and Christ but to live up to the expectations of God. To be spiritual and live by Christs teachings.

To not go on a mission to help others just to spread the word, but to help others because its the right thing to do.

This definition is relative.

I'm a Christian Mystic. But I consider all the denominations more or less Christian.

What I consider not a real Christian, is someone who goes to church and just kind of half-assedly is somewhat cool about the concept, but there's no change in them. Along those ropes I see the hard core literal fundamentalists who can't wait for God's wrath to strike down and destroy everyone except them, as not real Christians.

But then you have Xtians just starting out on the path (called babies on milk). Then you have those who have had an experience or two of the divine directly. These are more advanced now staring to eat meat(symbolic). The you have those undergoing a vast array of direct experiences known as the divine mysteries such as illumination, dark night of the soul, annihilation(ego death, and Union w/ God. These are the mature path walkers beyond faith and words.

So its really relative, because a fundamentalist from the Bible belt will tell you that all fake Christians are those who aren't they are.

For me it's simple. You either have spiritual enlightenment or you don't. That goes for Xtians and non-Xtians.