If they aren't real Christians then who are they???

I'm not really new to ATS. I'm a long time reader, but a first time
poster. The more I read the more questions I have, it's a
vicious circle.

Reading these posts for as long as I have, there's one question that's
really been bothering me. What is a "real Christian"?
I'm constantly seeing someone refer to someone else as "not a real
Christian".

Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't a Christian a person who will be saved
as long as they believe Jesus is their savior and they ask to be
forgiven for their sins no matter what atrocities they commit?
Seems to me believing in god gives you a licence to kill, steal, lie,
have sex with children, do drugs, get drunk, and whatever else you
choose as long as you say your prayers every night. So why do I always
hear people say "he or she is not a real Christian"?

If there was a religion designed by the devil to deceive the common
man wouldn't it be Christianity?

So who are the "real Christians" ?

I'll assume, remember this is an opinion.

Someone who believes in the Word of God, and the scriptures in the bible, but does not practice them

I would say that the majority of christians are not virgins when they marry.

Among other things.

Or someone who believes in The God of the Bible, but skeptical upon the words and translation handed down over a 2,000 year period of the bible itself. IE the man living in a fish is not possible. Maybe a more evidence based person.

My two cents.

And I officialy welcome you, rememberasking questions is a good thing.

Just look at Questioningall!

If someone tells me they are a Christian I accept that at face value. Jesus was a Rabbi and was not big on showy displays of faith or how pious one was regarded by their community or how they demonstrated themselves to be that or the necessity of proving that in public by going to Temple or Church or what have you.

I don't believe a person needs to attend any church service or Mass to prove anything and neither did He from what I can gather. Not that many of his teachings or sermons were recorded and the words actually attributed to him would fill a very small volume. Paul...well he is a bit of a problem for many...especially us women. A little loose with the facts I'm afraid and a biased embellisher.

It's in the heart and in the actions of a person. He spoke most directly to my heart and that's how I came to it. I was not raised Christian. Many think I will rot in hell because I don't buy the whole kit and caboodle but I am completely unimpressed with organized religion. I couldn't care less what other people think of the way I practice my Christianity.

A true Christian is someone that both loves and fears God, and tries to live up to an impossibly high standard of living a righteous and clean life.

Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you.

The aim s not perfection, because that is impossible for us,, but to try as hard as you possibly can to live up to the ideals and standards laid down in the Ten Commandments.

Not a real Christian, might be an evangelist or politician that PRETENDS to be one of God's children, but really only wants your money or your vote.

Hallelujah, I am God's chosen one to lead you into heaven. Send me your donation and vote for me. In private I molest children and take drugs, and steal money from my church, but that is my little secret. Get the idea ?

Another version might go, Allah loves you and wants you to kill Americans. Become a suicide bomber for Allah, and get seventeen virgins. Now that is not being a true Muslim.

True spirituality, of any valid religion is all about love for God, peace, and loving and helping mankind whatever country they come from. Truth, justice and morality. Get the idea ?

And you could just as well be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, or any of about a dozen other VALID spiritualities to succeed at this. What religion you are probably depends on where your parents came from. But you can be worthy of God in many other ways beside being a true Christian.

Perhaps it's the people who say "they're not a real Christian" that aren't real Christians... But I suppose that doesn't really answer the question at hand.

I imagine that if they're not real Christians, they must therefore be fake ones. That would be the obvious logical answer.

However, who decides who the real ones and the fake ones are? The original Christians? Well, who decides who those are either? It's a multisided question with no real answer for those who don't have an answer. And for those who seem to have an answer for the question... well, perhaps they're the ones we should be asking questions about.

Here's a real puzzler though. Supposing that there is no real Christ, could there be any real Christians at all? Only then would I see any justification in anyone claiming that someone else was not a "real Christian."

To prove that someone else wasn't what they claimed to be, you must first have conclusive proof that they aren't who they're claiming to be OR that the person who they're claiming to be doesn't exist at all. Otherwise, it's just your claim against theirs.

To me at least, it means a christian who hasn't been programmed by the Church.

My research has lead me to believe the intended message of the bible is that the temple of the Lord is in us, not a building erected by man. It is a place for God and Christ to dwell should we choose to recieve. God judges a man's hearts, thoughts and intentions in the same way he judges his actions. A man should have a personal relationship with Christ, we don't need a Priest's help to reach him.

That's my version of christianity... It's full of holes, contradictions, and omissions... Imperfect just as I am.

And welcome to the board, post more and be good or you'll get smacked by the mods (trust me it hurts)

[edit on 29-5-2009 by mostlyspoons]

This is not exclusive to Christianity, though. You will hear this from people in all faiths around the world.

"True Christians wouldn't murder an abortion doctor."

"These are not true Muslims, true Muslims don't behead civilians."

"True Jews don't disproportionately retaliate against other minority groups."

You see, excuses are made by people in all faiths against those who take extreme actions in the name of their religion. Which is understandable, because the majority of people in all these religions wouldn't condone any of the above. Saying only Christians do this is simply untrue.

If there was a religion designed by the devil to deceive the common
man wouldn't it be Christianity?

This could be said for the other religions as well. Any time somebody takes part in an action that goes against their holy book, and then preach this is acceptable, they are trying to deceive others. And I would argue that Islam is the clearest example of this type of behaviour, at least more so than the other two.

[edit on 29/5/2009 by Dark Ghost]

It's really not everyone else's place to judge who is Christian and who isn't. Especially if they are Christians themselves. We aren't to judge others, and we surely aught to understand that there is "none righteous, no, not one."
With that in mind, it would seem a little bit hypocritical to say somebody who fails to uphold every tenant of the teachings of Jesus, wouldn't it?

Even Paul admitted he was a wretched man, and I'm pretty sure Paul did more in his lifetime than most anyone else since his time to promote Christianity.

A Christian is somebody who believes in Jesus Christ and tries to live the way he taught us to live. That is my opinion.

God bless.
Task.

My own belief is that true spirituality trumps any of the so called "official religions".
Most if not all of which have now been infiltrated and corrupted by self seeking evil people..

Even Jesus had nothing but contempt for the Scribes, Pharisees, and Teachers of the Mosaic Law "
In fact it was they that crucified him.

Spirituality is a very personal thing between yourself and God. You need not attend any temple, or be under the instruction of any ordained holy man to achieve spirituality. Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened to you.

In fact many native people (in various countries) were highly spiritual before the invasion and plunder by the white races. A great deal of what was good was destroyed by conquest and pure greed.

reply to post by Sundancer

So who are the "real Christians"

Let's see what Christ has to say:

Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven will enter

reply to Silver Shadow

I am God's chosen one to lead you into heaven. Send me your donation and vote for me. In private I molest children and take drugs, and steal money from my church, but that is my little secret.

Absolute justice is real:

...the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

- again Christ's own teaching.

What many have either forgotten or never realized in the first place is that every human being who has ever lived has an appointment with their Maker. The One who gave the ability to think can read the thoughts and the intentions of the heart; they are completely laid open and bare to him every moment of our lives.

The hypocricy issue was at the centre of a lot of Christ's teaching. Talking about the Pharisees he said:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness...

It's one thing to be defrocked live on TV, but to be exposed in front of the entire universe and Christ himself is going to lend a whole new meaning to the word 'woe'.

So who are the real Christians? The Master told us clearly:

You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

So if hypocrites are both real and forseen, what defines the real McCoy, those who do the will of his father in Heaven, as he put it?

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

So at the end of the day it starts with believing that Christ is who he said he is. Hypocrites think that belief is hidden and can be mimmicked. That's because they are devoid of real faith - otherwise they'd be aware their very intention to deceive is so visible to God it might as well be written on a placard and held up in front of them.



reply to ChrisCrikey

If someone tells me they are a Christian I accept that at face value.

Your simplicity of heart is laudible, Chris, but the NT is full of warnings about deceivers - wolves in sheeps clothing, and so on. For that reason it is advisable to treat such claims with an element of caution. Some seek respectability, others just want to caress their own conscience. In reality relatively few are willing to take "the narrow path thast leads to life", as Christ put it.

I couldn't care less what other people think of the way I practice my Christianity.

Well said. That is a great starting point. Living for Christ is just that. No more, no less.

Here's the problem. None of us has the ability to live a totally upright life. At best we are tainted by false motives. More likely we break the ten commandments every day, at least in our heart. So the Christian life starts with the need for forgiveness. Or it doesn't start at all.

Thus the Cross.

Thus the hope of Heaven for sinful men and women.

The New Testament defines a Christian as someone who has acknowledged their depravity to their Maker and asked for the forgiveness bought on the Cross. The Father of Jesus Christ mercifully washes the sprit clean and creates a heart that now loves rather than curses the Maker.

Which leads to peace, inward joy and incalculable hope of life forever with the One to whom you have been reconciled at great cost.

Thus the focus is not the 'real Christian', as if he/she were something special, but the person really renewed by the Gospel of Christ.

All of those supposed "Christians" have the right to call themselves that. Unfortunately, it doesn't mean that they'll be saved from spiritual death since according to their textbook (The Bible), they should fear God and follow all the commandments (the 10 commandments is a summary btw.).

From what I studied in the Bible, it's almost impossible to be saved.

You can't be a Christian unless you know your textbook well.

Btw. priests are either holding back the Christian teachings or they haven't even read and understood the Bible fully and exhaustively so they're a joke.

Don't trust them.

The believing in Jesus and you will be saved thing is also a joke perpetrated by those "Born Again" Christians. They're preaching but they don't even know what's inside their textbook.

If people are serious in their religion they should start reading and understanding their textbook exhaustively first. Unless they do this they have no right to parade around calling themselves Christians. Hell. If every Christian practices what they parade around then it will be heaven on earth.

People have the time to read those Dan Brown books but they haven't even read a Bible. These Christians are such a joke.

[edit on 29-5-2009 by Unregistered]

Bravo Sundancer.
Well said !

Originally posted by Sundancer
If there was a religion designed by the devil to deceive the common
man wouldn't it be Christianity?

So who are the "real Christians" ?

The only religion that is designed by the devil is the one that deceives away from Christianity. If your religion doesn't make you read and understand your textbook exhaustively then that's it.

Originally posted by Sundancer
I'm not really new to ATS. I'm a long time reader, but a first time
poster. The more I read the more questions I have, it's a
vicious circle.

Reading these posts for as long as I have, there's one question that's
really been bothering me. What is a "real Christian"?
I'm constantly seeing someone refer to someone else as "not a real
Christian".

Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't a Christian a person who will be saved
as long as they believe Jesus is their savior and they ask to be
forgiven for their sins no matter what atrocities they commit?
Seems to me believing in god gives you a licence to kill, steal, lie,
have sex with children, do drugs, get drunk, and whatever else you
choose as long as you say your prayers every night. So why do I always
hear people say "he or she is not a real Christian"?

If there was a religion designed by the devil to deceive the common
man wouldn't it be Christianity?

So who are the "real Christians" ?

Hi/

There is no scripture that says that you will be forgiven if you are a Christian.

Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't a Christian a person who will be saved
as long as they believe Jesus is their savior and they ask to be
forgiven for their sins no matter what atrocities they commit?

You are mistaken that a Christian is saved by their belief in Christ.
It does not work like this.
Jesus Christ gave us an example of this in His many parables.
The Gospel Parables

If all that was needed to be forgiven was a belief in Jesus Christ, then why are not all people, followers of Christ?

quote///“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many might works in your name [and write many books in your name, and teach in your name]?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’” (Mt 7:21)

I believe that it is an easier road for unbelievers, then it is for believers....

The Devil precisely allows demons to use any possible means ..........
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Eph.6:12).
''High places'' is in the skies...around us and in the air.
many phenomenon of supernatural occurrences have been in the skies.

Christianity by no means is there to deceive...unless one purposely sets out to deceive by means of working with the opposer.
If the later is the case, then in Scripture they are called false prophets and their father is Satan, who simply does not tell the truth but lie.

There is nothing to gain if a christian shares goodness with another.
If a Christian does this for their own purpose to gain whatever it is they wish to accomplish(and there a many)be it money or power or whatever their purpose is,they do not speak for all Christians.
This is not How Christ works.
In many cases, the Devil does use deception in many forms...the devil assumes the form of "an angel of light" (II Cor. 11:14)to trick those that d not know the truth in Scripture.eg/ using their own interpretation of the Scriptures in place of the early church fathers who lived a life in prayers and fasting.
How many true Christians practice this today?
How can one have trust in themselves without humility in Christ, and His *Saints(Old testament prophets and the Apostles among many more Ascetic people)and sit and tell everyone that they were shown within dreams or what have you to translate the Scriptures as they see fit.

*Saints are those that do the work of God(Old Testament and the New Testament)...For in Christ , one is not dead.

helen

If anything, it is how

reply to post by helen670

You are mistaken that a Christian is saved by their belief in Christ.
It does not work like this.

An intellectual knowledge of Jesus doesn't save. Believing that you're not able to obtain salvation yourself and that God provided the way for salvation, Jesus Christ, and trusting in that provision is what saves a man.

John 3.16 (ESV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2.8-9 (ESV):

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This is an interesting question that deserves serious discussion. It is at the crux of every major qualm between 'mainstream' Christian sects and 'offshoots' such as LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians.

It is very easy to say that if someone considers themselves to be a Christian than that is good enough for me. Unfortunately A = A. If they claim to be a Christian but believe that Christ came from another planet and hung out with Xenu and that he was actually a red headed Chinese woman, then I respect your right to believe what you want, but I wouldn't call you a Christian. There has to be a coherent and reasonable (if somewhat flexible) definition or the word doesn't mean anything.

I fall back on the Nicene Creed. It's not all encompassing, but it's a good starting point.

Originally posted by Sundancer
Seems to me believing in god gives you a licence to kill, steal, lie,
have sex with children, do drugs, get drunk, and whatever else you
choose as long as you say your prayers every night. So why do I always
hear people say "he or she is not a real Christian"?

If there was a religion designed by the devil to deceive the common
man wouldn't it be Christianity?

Although I completely disagree with what you wrote here, I won't go into it. These seem to be completely off topic and possibly deserving of their own thread.

Thanks for posting!

Eric

reply to post by EricD

This is an interesting question that deserves serious discussion. It is at the crux of every major qualm between 'mainstream' Christian sects and 'offshoots' such as LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians.

When I was in college, I had a professor that more or less said that organizations like the JWs, LDS, and others aren't Christian because they depart from orthodox believes about Jesus. Namely, that he was God in the flesh.

I've always thought that that is a good way to determine one's "christianness"--what they believe about Jesus.

reply to post by Republican08


Thanks for the input. I received so many great answers but now I have so many more questions.
How could someone believe in God and the bible but not necessarily the translations passed down? How do they justify picking and choosing what parts to believe and still be Christian?

Reply to ChrisCrikey

Many think I will rot in hell because I don't buy the whole kit and caboodle but I am completely unimpressed with organized religion. I couldn't care less what other people think of the way I practice my Christianity.

It just seems like there should be a rule book the people can easily interpret. Does the bible say you HAVE to worship in a church or rot in hell? If not why do some Christians look down on those who don't worship in a church?

[edit on 29-5-2009 by Sundancer]

reply to post by Sundancer


Depends on who you ask

If you ask the Phelps family, they will say they are real Christians.

If you ask Pat Robertson he will say he is a real Christian.

If you ask the KKK they will say they are real Christians.

Anyone sensing a trend here?

It's a religious ideology, in that general ideology there are splinter groups that twist those general beliefs to their own idea of what a Real Christian is.

Depends on who you ask. If you ask the Phelps family, they will say they are real Christians. If you ask Pat Robertson he will say he is a real Christian. If you ask the KKK they will say they are real Christians. Anyone sensing a trend here?

reply to post by whatukno


My point exactly! The point of the whole post really. Which one is the real Christian? A man on death row claims to be a Christian because God forgave him. Most of all of the people making the decisions for this country (government) are Christian. The bailouts, the wars, the unfair taxation, the shredding of the constitution, I could go on. Is this what God wanted? Are they his chosen ones? Real Christians?