The Power Of The "R" Word

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Mr Headshot
I don't care about the point you're arguing, it's irrelevant to the thread. Nobody is saying that rape doesn't happen often or that most victims of rape aren't really victims of rape, we're simply stating facts that women use the word as a weapon quite often.

I know girls are immature...I wasn't saying they weren't.
Also, 16 is legal age of consent here in this state.
These people weren't my friends, I just knew them.
I know they were still considered minors though, as the legal age of consent is a kind of grey area, but that aside, this was not "rape" in the classic sense of forced sex. It was just that the girls got caught (in both cases) and said....oh....HE RAPED ME. That's about the size of it.

If they were still considered minors then it counts as stat rape.

But yeah, everyone knows that rape does happen, this isn't a woman-hating thread or a "let's glorify rape" thread so come off your high horse.

High horse? You were defending a grown men who knowingly had sex with a 15 year old girl. "oh he raped me!" she said? Yet he knew how old she was.. sorry but I do not see how he is a victim of circumstance. He KNEW there would be a chance of him being charged with stat rape so how can he be her victim? Even if she didn't claim rape.. legally it is. Doesn't matter what she says.

:edit:
You took the words out of my mouth Chrono.
:edit edit:
Geez, people are really twisting the OP's words around on him. I would make an innocent joke here but I'm terrified of the ladies here by now.
It's the interweb people, chill out.

I find it ironic that you claim this isn't a woman bashing thread yet then come out claiming us ladies are all out to get you. We haven't taken you out of context.. thats just something thats said when you and others cannot answer an argument.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

I'm not defending the guy; I personally thought he was a complete idiot. I'm not saying it wasn't stat rape, if you'll read my post I'll say that it wasn't rape in the classic sense of the word. It was rape according to law but not to either party involved.
The other guy I knew was in the same situation as another guy mentioned earlier in the thread. He was at a 18+ party, chicks faked ID's and got it. He screwed one under the assumption she wasn't a minor because she was in an 18+ party. About a week later the girl's parent heard the girl and her friend talking about the night and when her parents got mad she just cried rape, her parents followed suit and the guy goes off to die in prison.
Admittedly, one nighters aren't the smartest thing in the world to do, but you can't make it illegal so saying "they should just know better" isn't logical.
Now, I'll be the first to say that men make stupid choices. And there are some cases where men falsify a rape case for money (The Catholic Priest thing, Michael Jackson's kids) but those of us who are with the OP on this one have seen this (falsification) happen too many times.

I'm not bashing anyone when I say I'm refraining from making a joke because the women in this thread have shown a tendency to lash out against anyone making a comment that can, in any way, be misconstrued as sexist.

Also, Sonja, really quit trying to take everything everyone says so seriously. He mentioned To Kill a Mocking Bird and you're calling him a racist because he mentioned race...

EDIT: As i didn't read the entire thread yet ( but checked the last few pages) i will just raise my hand and admit that when it comes to this issue i am all for male bashing and will for the most part see any 'affirmative' ( " we 'did it' but she wanted too" ) defense as attacks upon the characters of the female victims.

Sorry about that but i am 'biased' with my mind firmly closed.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
As for stat rape i would say this, each case needs to be assessed on it's merits, as with any breech of the law.

Hi IR,

Thing is that the law overwhelmingly sides with men; it's VERY difficult to prosecute rape cases and the vast majority of men get away with it.

Reporting Statistics

Only 16% of rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation. 1992). In 1995 there were 97,460 rapes reported to law enforcement officials. At a 16% reporting rate, this means that there were actually closer to 649,733 rapes in the United States. Along the same lines, the number of rapes reported in New York state in 1996 was 20,911. At a 16% reporting rate, this means the actual number of rapes was closer to 139,406. (Computerized Criminal History, Feb. 1998)

The rate of false reports of rape is approximately 2 - 3% which is no different than that for other crimes. This is different than the 8% of reports which are unfounded. This means that in 8% of the rape cases reported the investigators or prosecutors deemed that the case was not prosecutable for any number of reasons. Only 2 - 3% of the reports however were fabricated stories.

Conviction and Sentencing

Less than half of those arrested for rape are convicted, 54% of all rape prosecutions end in either dismissal or acquittal. The conviction rate for those arrested for murder is 69% and all other felons is 54%. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice) 21% of convicted rapists are never sentenced to jail or prison time, and 24% receive time in local jail which means that they spend an average of less than 11 months behind bars. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice)

www.sa.rochester.edu...

How about this one, a friend of a frien was in a night club, slept with a girl. Now this is an 18's and over nightclub. He then spent a year or more fighting a legal battle because the girl was actually 15 and had lied and said she was 18. That is technically stat rape. So what should happen there? Should he be imprisoned for years because he didn't ask for ID?

Yes, if you like them to look as young as possible and don't want to risk jail time you should probably ask for ID just to make sure. Thing is most men ( still in the US; it's certainly worse in my country& many other places) don't have to bother because they have less than 10% chance of being found guilty with half of those convicted spending no time or less than a year behind bars . If you just work based on the rapes reported the stats still discourage reporting the crime as there is quite less than 50% chance that he will be found guilty and with only half of those doing serious jail time. Perhaps if women were not so concerned about their dignity ( they already mostly believe it's somehow their faul; men are as always not to blame for that) and more vengefull we could lock up all these types but here we are and there you are pointing out that a significant number of women have managed to fabricate proof so effectively that they managed to defeat the system that more often than not can't find sufficient proof. Getting away with rape is sadly nowhere near rocket science and hyping the few cases were the system is abused by women is doing them a great disservice.

However this thread wasn't about that, you have brought it up, this thread was about how men are badly treated in rape cases, unfairly seen by juries and how men have to be quite fearful of such an accusation ever being thrown their way.

Well if that is what you want to talk about you wont make any headway as men are VERY infrequently innocent victims of women. Perhaps you should rather ask why the few women ( 2-3%, or there abouts, earlier indicated) who do lay false claims were angry, spiteful or ashamed enough to do so? Just because you are not guilty of a crime does not mean you are not mistreating people or associating with the wrong, too young or unstable, women.

In conclusion when it comes to sexual assault charges i will take a women's word over a man's any day of the week as whatever the chance she might be lying it's always going to be order of magnitudes higher for 'the dude' that apparently mostly felt compelled to find a way to have sex no matter the ( as we can see) small risks involved.

Stellar

Fixed some stats

[edit on 23-5-2009 by StellarX]

If it offends people that I laughed at this I'm sorry but this is seriously the truth. Before I write anything else I'd like to just note how many guys get away with rape too which is horrible and any rapist in my opinion should be raped back (by a foreign object of course) and thrown in the ocean.

But seriously I've known a few girls who threw the word rape around like it was nothing serious trying to make a bad name for a guy and it's definetly not cool.

A good example of this too is women who have sex with sports players or famous people and claim rape cause they want a settlement out of it.

One time I heard the creator of family guy say this just to throw this is and before I write this I don't in any way think of this saying as anything more than a really funny joke. Anyways the saying was, "Rape is love without the timing." I heard it in the work van and got yelled at by all the women for laughing.

reply to post by StellarX



The only thing i will address is the ID thing. I'm sure if a guy asks to see a girls ID when they're thinking of going home together that girl will be rather weirded out by it. So why would a guy who wants to have sex ruin his chances when he's in a club for people over 18 years of age? When you enter that club you basically state you are 18 at least, therefore any guy who ends up with a girl from there should not be prosecuted for stat rape.

If you think the guy should go to prison, you are basically siding with a girl who has lied about her age, consensually had sex then because she gets in troble with her parents or something like that cries rape to get out of trouble. Are you honestly telling me, that in such a specific situation that this is ok? As i said it took him a year to clear himself and the deciding factor was that the girl had claimed she was 18 by entering the club.

Originally posted by StellarX

In conclusion when it comes to sexual assualt charges i will take a womens word over a man's any day of the week as whatever the chance she might be lying it's always going to be order of magnetitudes higher for 'the dude' that apparently mostly felt compelled to find a way to have sex no matter the ( as we can see) small risks involved.

Stellar

I'm sorry but this is not how the law works, i won't be responding to the rest of your post because as you stated at the outset you are close minded on the topic. Whilst i admire your honesty (that is sincere) i cannot abide by a closed mind who would instantly side with any woman making a claim. I don't side with either, i wait until evidence comes along or the most convincing testimony. That is how it is supposed to work.

Your post however does make my point rather brilliantly. That men rarely get a fair trial, or even a fair police interview because the public is so biased towards the womans side.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

I have read every comment posted in this thread, and I was going to comment earlier, but as the thread progressed, I chose not to.

As a male, I felt to even discuss a topic that is related to rape, one needs to step very carefully. I can see the passion that many have in this room, and as a male I will never understand how terrible it must be for the female victims. All I can do is empathize with the victims of such a terrible abuse.

As Ashley said: 'This is a very sensitive subject- one that could easily be labeled taboo" This is very true , although it does not take away from the very many real issues of rape, to the victims, their families, the families of the guilty, but also to the falsely accused and their family. The issues that are taboo are left in the to hard basket.

I believe the OP was and is being sincere with the issue he wrote in his post. But I also believe that a few in the room believed the OP was not being empathetic to the more important issues within the topic of rape, hence he didn't care. This is not true!

The OP was about one issue that is not discussed in general, hence the stat of 1% - 50% being the "guess" for falsely accused. That is a pretty big margin, maybe because it is a taboo subject and not researched in the best way possible.

That's all I believe was the subject of his thread. Is there a better way to get true, more accurate stats for these falsely accused victims.

I do not believe the OP was playing down the hanus crime, and the terrible affects of rape to the victims in any way. It was simply the subject he chose as an issue, which everyone agrees is an issue.

Even though the stats are a minority, a minority can be many.

My uncle will not be alone with a women at all. He has been like this from the time I was a child, and my aunt verified and agreed it was a good idea, because of the possibility of the OP's subject. So it is a real issue, and has been for many years.

Please just try to empathize with others that this subject is very sensitive indeed.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984



and, here it is...

That is another issue i have taken here and when i asked someone to provide statistics for false allegations of rape there were unable to do so because the statistics, reliable ones, do not exist. I would like those to exist so the debate could be more accurately gauged.

those statistics should have been part of your opening post

this debate - is based on your assumption - an assumption that included an accusation - against women

and you did accuse women - of something despicable - while simultaneously dismissing something that comes with actual statistics with an: "I'm sorry ladies..."

I am not saying women don't lie

I am not saying that innocent men aren't being accused of rape

I am not saying that I - or we - don't care about those innocent men

if you read through everything the women have been saying Imaginary - you will hopefully see that NONE of them have really disagreed with any of the points I just mentioned

what this is about - in my opinion - is the fact that you want to minimize the significance of the crime of rape (while protesting that you really are concerned)

at the same time, it seems you want to draw attention to the power women really have over men - and demonstrate just how much damage they can do

OK then - let's let it be about what you want it to be about

women are devious creatures

while it's not hard to look back through history and see that human beings could be considered devious creatures - and up to no good much of the time - let's just get it over with and all of us admit: women are human – we suck sometimes

are there laws in place to address the issue of false testimony and false accusations? What about perjury then - is that something that exists without consequence? For everyone - or just women?

are the police particularly inept when asking their questions and taking their notes - from women? Or are you saying that they're inept - in general?

is it the responsibility of the police to judge innocence or guilt - or is their role in all this supposed to be separate from that end?

you seem to believe that if we could only teach the police to realize that women lie - men would not be so vulnerable

I say - if we could only teach the police to recognize rapists by just looking at them - then this whole problem would magically disappear

or, maybe we could teach the police the art of remote viewing - think of the possibilities...no more false convictions - we'd know everything we need to know all the time

women lie Imaginary - yes, it's true

I don't know what to say -

except this:

I have never been raped - but there was one time - that came out of nowhere - where I really expected that this is what was going to happen

and it did come out of nowhere - I don't know why it didn't happen - the only thing I can think is that I may actually possess magical powers

so - not really my experience - but, close enough

However - I know many, many, many women who have been raped - so many in fact that I began to see myself as an anomaly - the exception to the rule

Those are the ones I know about - how many others do I know nothing about - even out of my family and friends?

Of the ones I know - some women were raped as adults - some when they were teenagers - some when they were little girls

The daughter of a very good friend of mine was raped by her own father when she was only 3 – I can only hope that she remembers nothing about it

Many of the women that have been raped - that I know personally – were raped by their fathers, their uncles, their brothers, their neighbors...

I know of a woman that was raped by her brother – and was essentially cast out of her family for daring to even mention it – she’s been suicidal her entire adult life

Another woman was raped throughout her entire childhood by her father – and went to prison for trying to kill him when she was an adult

the next door neighbor of my sister was raped, savagely beaten and left for dead a few years back by a serial rapist

I was visiting a friend of mine at college and staying in her dorm room when a serial rapist that had been targeting the campus somehow managed to get into her room late one night

his 2nd mistake was thinking she was alone – but it turns out – I wasn’t even important in this story, because his 1st mistake was picking her in the first place. She’s a strapping Irish American woman with a quick temper, even quicker wits – and I woke to see this guy trying to dodge her and get out the door while she proceeded to beat the crap out of him

He was arrested less than an hour later trying to rape another young woman in another dorm – this had been going on for weeks – no one wanted to let the girls know about any of it – BECAUSE – they didn’t want to draw attention – they didn’t want anyone to worry

and just so that this is balanced – I want to mention the men – because truthfully – there are so many that have been raped that never have and never will talk about it – because they’re men

I had a boyfriend that was raped when he was a boy by his uncle – who he went to live with after his father had died

how many thousands of men can tell a similar story? Thousands and thousands – it’s true

Imaginary – I’m not talking about this because I think you don’t understand – and I want to make you feel bad

I already know you know all of this – and I have no intention of accusing you of not understanding

I’m going over all of this because it’s ugly – and the “R” word just glosses over it

we need to see the ugly – all of us

you made women angry with this thread for pointing out the obvious

women can use the “R” word as a tool

women can also lie about other things – they can steal, cheat – murder

they commit crimes – just like men

we have a system that attempts to deal with all of it – it’s not perfect

you’re not wrong – men can be falsely accused – and it can destroy their lives

but you singled out women and attempted to minimize the larger crime so you could draw attention to what is a personal concern of yours – and you began the whole thing with “I’m sorry ladies”

I’m not going to say anything else – there’s no solution for this - it’s not a debate anyone can win

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

if you read through everything the women have been saying Imaginary - you will hopefully see that NONE of them have really disagreed with any of the points I just mentioned

what this is about - in my opinion - is the fact that you want to minimize the significance of the crime of rape (while protesting that you really are concerned)

at the same time, it seems you want to draw attention to the power women really have over men - and demonstrate just how much damage they can do

I'm sorry but nonsense and rubbish. Somewhere in my thread history is a thread i started calling for longer sentences for certain crimes. Rape was one of them. You havea very wrong opinion, you talk of assumptions then you make a huge one, a very wrong one. I won't be responding to any more of what you say unless it is to address the real topic that has been made and the questions i posted on the last page which were a very clear indication of my views.

I am not drawing attention to power, i don't care about that part of it and to keep saying i do is nothing more than a rant by someone who is obviously accusing me of something they themselves are doing. You have an issue with any man bringing up this topic. I'm tired of defending myself and my motives. I have laid it out clearly and you have misread it because of your bias.

It is at least heartening to see that others have taken my intentions for what they really are. Thank you to those people for being objective.


So let me make this clear to you although i don't think it will work as you have a set opinion and no matter how much i deny it you will not accept it.

This thread is not jabout hating women or putting women in a bad light, i mentioned women only in the beginning because the conversation i had with friends was about women, a conversation they bought up i should add. The thought of men didn't cross my mind because it wasn't mentioned during the conversation. So i posted it online. When someone mentioned men i was happy to include it and put my points across. Stop making this seem like it's a thread aimed at hating women because it is absolutely not. Take a look at the questions i put up a few pages back that included female and MALE victims of rape.

Your opinion of me is incorrect and i will no longer address the rubbish you spout about me, it is wrong, plain and simple and others have seen that i did not mean anything like you have said.

In fact i'm going to quote my earlier post just to prove a point. Nowehere in this have i singled out men or women because since someone bought up the male side of it i decided to include it. However is there anything wrogn with discussing one side of an argument like i did in my earlier post? It is interesting to see that riley was annoyed when someone treated her views like a feminist raving but you are happy to see mine as based in mysogyny.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
1. Would you agree that studies show a stupid range of numbers in regards to the false report rate? 1-50% is nowhere near good enough for us to accurately draw opinions.

2. Would you also agree it is therefore a good idea to get a handle on a true figure, especially as this would stop lawyers speculating in courts.

3. Would you agree this is a logical, careful approach that holds no bias, only a need for clear statistics?

4. Would you support more specialist police officers being trained to deal with rape cases so that they can more easily tell the false accusations whilst making sure they provide better support for real victims?

5. Would you agree that an accusation of rape is far harsher on a persons life than an accusation of theft for example.

6. Would you support supression of the media speculating on cases of rape which influence the public at large. Whilst this wouldn't effect the jury on that particular case, it would effect any future jury for other cases. Obviously they should be free to comment on convicted rapists, but not on ongiong cases or simple accusations.

7. Finally, would you agree for harsher sentences for men and women who do falsly claim rape? Because at the moment the sentences are either short or suspended. I can understand your concern that this would discourage women from coming forward, but if we had the better trained officers this would hopefully counter that.

I look forward to your views Riley and the views of others.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

I'm sorry but nonsense and rubbish

I was afraid of that

well then - we're done I guess

I've said what I have to say

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


also - Imaginary - I realize - it looks like maybe you didn't even bother to read what I wrote

is that even possible?

:-)

I won't be around to fight about this today - not for any real amount of time

so - this is going to have to continue on between you and whoever feels like they want to deal with it

if it looks to me like you actually read what I said and can come up with a more even tempered response -maybe you and I can continue on later

but for now - all I can say is - you are one angry little muppet - and I'm not in the mood
:-)

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

I'm sorry but nonsense and rubbish

I was afraid of that

well then - we're done I guess

I've said what I have to say

Yes you have gotten your accusations across. Why not take a stab at answearing the questions i put up, they are after all an overview of my opinions on the subject. My real opinions not the horrible woman hater/fearer you think i am.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

also - Imaginary - I realize - it looks like maybe you didn't even bother to read what I wrote

is that even possible?

I read all of it, and yes i'm angry about someone implying things that are not true and basically invalidate my points if they were true. It is a dishonest way of debating.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
if it looks to me like you actually read what I said and can come up with a more even tempered response -maybe you and I can continue on later

but for now - all I can say is - you are one angry little muppet - and I'm not in the mood
:-)

Would you be angry if someone kept accusing you of something about your character which is not true and is damaging the argument by it's implication? I am betting you would. The fact you view it that way whreas others don't, when i have repeatedly said it isn't true is either a deliberate effort to try and get a very angry post out of me in the hope of me getting in trouble, or it is simply you being blind to the reality that i am not what you claim i am.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


last post from me today Imaginary

get a grip

read what I said

this isn't a debate

it stopped being a debate a while ago

read what I said

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Here it is again, why is there so many posts all going back to blaming men, and just focusing on men's pathetic morals, instead of the actual topic?

I bet your a woman too right? What's going on?

Phoenix can you really not see how many of the women here are feeling like he IS in fact attacking women in general?

Okay imagine the inverse. Imagine I posted a thread about brutal rapes, and I included 5 articles that detailed individual rape cases. Then I went on to say I have lots of male friends and I discussed it with them, and they agree rape is horrid, and they all SAY they would never rape a woman. They say that, but I state I believe that maybe they WOULD rape a woman if the situation was right. Yeah they are "great guys" but still they are guys and that means you really can't trust what they will do.

Would you, as a male, find that a bit offensive? For someone to imply that deep down ALL men, no matter how nice they seem, could be capable of physically assaulting a woman? Because that is what the OP said, only he said it in the inverse.



[edit on 23-5-2009 by Sonya610]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


It is a debate if people will let it be. If you don't want to discuss it then don't bother posting, very simple. If you just want to insinuate rubbish then it really does stop a debate. It's up to you. You haven't taken a look at the questions i posed obviously, or haven't bothered replying. That is a way of continuing the discussion, you have chosen not to and so i won't bother with your pettiness.

reply to post by Sonya610

Would you, as a male, find that a bit offensive? For someone to imply that deep down ALL men, no matter how nice they seem, could be capable of rape? Because that is what the OP said, only he said it in the inverse.

thank you Sonya

nicely done

I'm outta here - for now

Originally posted by Sonya610
Would you, as a male, find that a bit offensive? For someone to imply that deep down ALL men, no matter how nice they seem, could be capable of rape? Because that is what the OP said, only he said it in the inverse.

This wasn't directed at me but i wanted to respond to it.

If you had been dicussing it that very day with friends and only talked about one side of the argument with them then i would understand why you posted it without mentioning the other side of the debate. Of course you missed where i said MINORITY OF WOMEN DO THIS. You then missed where i have said that anyone, not just women but anyone when emotional can do stupid things.

But hey you can't see that so nevermind.

What i would ask you Sonya is why other women aren't offended because they see i didn't quite mean it like you think i meant it. Is this simply a case of you projecting your own views onto my argument?

[edit on 23-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984 Of course you missed where i said MINORITY OF WOMEN DO THIS. You then missed where i have said that anyone, not just women but anyone when emotional can do stupid things.

You keep repeating "a minority of women" You keep forgetting YOU SAID that you wonder if any or for that matter all of your good female friends would do it if pushed.

You are implying they would commit a crime and ruin a guys life if they felt like it. Don't try to back peddle. That statement carries a lot of weight.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by Sonya610]

I would request some of the angrier female members take a read of this.


falserapesociety.blogspot.com...

It was linked by another member. Please read through it, don't skip. This is why i posted it. I mean the discussion with friends prompted the idea into my head, the stories on that website though are why this needs to be discussed. To do otherwise and bash down anyone who does as a mysogynist or other stupid accusations is deeply immoral.

Originally posted by Sonya610
You keep repeating "a minority of women" You keep forgetting YOU SAID that you wonder if any or for that matter all of your good female friends would do it if pushed.

You are implying they would commit a crime and ruin a guys life if they felt like it. Don't try to back peddle. That statement carries a lot of weight.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by Sonya610]

I am not back pedlling. Anyone, when in emotional distress can do stupid things they would never normally do. That is a small part of the thread. The important part is that the simple accusation can destroy someones life. So let me be clear Sonya as you yet again can't grasp it.

Now that someone has bought up the male rape victim angle i am including it. The only reason i didn't originally is because i had discussed this with friends from the female rape claim side only. As i got home i went straight to the computer and started typing. If i had spent a few more hours thinking about it then i'm sure i would have included male allegations of rape.

So let's once again be clear Sonya, ANYONE, male or female can do stupid things when in emotional distress. The debate now is how to deal with false claims.

Clear enough?

Sonya


You know i can see why you would assume i'm a woman hater from my first post Sonya. I can see how you would construe that first post maybe as bad. I have, after it was mentioned explained why that first post was centered on women, the explanation is easy and clear and you just choose not to believe it. So what am i to do?

After someone mentioned the male angle i was happy to include it and debate it. If this thread set out to trash women i wouldn't bother including it, debating it and would just kick off about it.

So there you go Sonya, i'm meeting you halfway saying how i can see why someone might view it as a woman hating thread. Hopefully you can meet me half way and realise that was not, and is not it's intent.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]