The Power Of The "R" Word

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


And on that note we WILL refrain from posting personal hits and/or discuss the intent of the OP. Stick to the topic people.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Sonya610
You keep repeating "a minority of women" You keep forgetting YOU SAID that you wonder if any or for that matter all of your good female friends would do it if pushed.

You are implying they would commit a crime and ruin a guys life if they felt like it. Don't try to back peddle. That statement carries a lot of weight.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by Sonya610]

I am not back pedlling. Anyone, when in emotional distress can do stupid things they would never normally do. That is a small part of the thread. The important part is that the simple accusation can destroy someones life. So let me be clear Sonya as you yet again can't grasp it.

Now that someone has bought up the male rape victim angle i am including it. The only reason i didn't originally is because i had discussed this with friends from the female rape claim side only. As i got home i went straight to the computer and started typing. If i had spent a few more hours thinking about it then i'm sure i would have included male allegations of rape.

So let's once again be clear Sonya, ANYONE, male or female can do stupid things when in emotional distress. The debate now is how to deal with false claims.

Clear enough?

I find this highly offensive to males.
You are saying, in a thread about rape, that absolutely anyone can do stupid things when in emotional distress.

I can only assume that, just as this implies that no women, when "pushed", can be trusted to not falsely cry rape, you are also saying that no man, when pushed, is above committing rape.

Seeing as it's open season for bringing hearsay about one's friends to the table, i have both male and female friends.

And, just as my female friends would never, under any circumstances, make a false rape accusation, my male friends can be trusted to treat any girl with respect and gentleness, and to genuinely care about people, rather than looking at them as unco-operative and untrustworthy sex dolls.

There really are a lot of people who will always treat others decently, no matter how hard it gets.


This statement from an earlier post gives a clue as to where you are coming from.

The only thing i will address is the ID thing. I'm sure if a guy asks to see a girls ID when they're thinking of going home together that girl will be rather weirded out by it. So why would a guy who wants to have sex ruin his chances when he's in a club for people over 18 years of age?

If you really believe it's unreasonable to expect a man, picking up a young woman he does not know for sex, to check her ID, because that might "weird her out" and deprive him of an easy lay, then you obviously put a high value on getting an easy lay.

If this determination to find an easy lay is putting you in positions of vulnerability, where you can't predict a girl's behaviour because you don't know her, it's natural that you might feel some fear that she will turn out to be a liar.

Id suggest that, instead of suggesting all women are untrustworthy, you look at the real problem and protect yourself from unforeseen circumstances.

After all, you are much more likely to catch an STD than to catch a false rape charge, and the commonest, genital herpes, is not prevented by condom use. And if you're picking up a girl who casually screws strangers, there are likely to have been plenty of others for her to catch things off before you met her.

And don't forget the possibility of fatherhood. No birth control method is 100% effective, and parenthood is generally for life.

Originally posted by Kailassa
I find this highly offensive to males.
You are saying, in a thread about rape, that absolutely anyone can do stupid things when in emotional distress.

I'm a male and i don't find it offensive, i find it to be true based on history and psychology. People, really nice people have murdered others in fits of rage. It doesn't mean they're bad people just that they lost their controls for a moment, that is called temporary insanity. Imagine for a moment a girl, or guy claimed a false rape out of sheer anger, they lose control and blurt it out. Once they have calmed down they have the choice of admitting it is wrong and getting in trouble or sticking with it and causing the other person trouble. This i think is what would account for most false rape allegations.

Originally posted by Kailassa
I can only assume that, just as this implies that no women, when "pushed", can be trusted to not falsely cry rape, you are also saying that no man, when pushed, is above committing rape.

It's a horrible thought, i could never think of myself doing such a thing, but i'm still not offended by the idea. However what i will say is this, you are comparing a physical action to a verbal one. Accusations of rape are easier to throw out then the physical rape of someone. The brain has cut offs for such things.

Think of it this way, i'm sure you're said some horrible things when made angry, everyone has, but you would never carry out such actions because you stop yourself. It's a bit of a different scenario. Claiming a rape is very simple, you simply speak some words, after that of course it gets very complex and theres a lot of pressure but once in that scenario people won't want to say they're a liar. Actually raping someone is simply not the same.

Originally posted by Kailassa
And, just as my female friends would never, under any circumstances, make a false rape accusation, my male friends can be trusted to treat any girl with respect and gentleness, and to genuinely care about people, rather than looking at them as unco-operative and untrustworthy sex dolls.

A terrible way of looking at people and not something i do. I have made it clear about temporary insanity and the effects it can have. I have not simply stated that most women would cry rape flippantly, i did say minority didn't i. When i've said most i talk about being pushed, not because of a little falling out, we're talking temporarily losing control.

Originally posted by Kailassa

If you really believe it's unreasonable to expect a man, picking up a young woman he does not know for sex, to check her ID, because that might "weird her out" and deprive him of an easy lay, then you obviously put a high value on getting an easy lay.

Actually i don't put a high price on it i was speaking on behalf of any guy that does go out for that kind of thing. How about this, you enter a building that is for 18 year olds you have basically claimed you are 18. Anyway the guy went free after a year of battling because the courts agreed with that statement.

Originally posted by Kailassa
If this determination to find an easy lay is putting you in positions of vulnerability, where you can't predict a girl's behaviour because you don't know her, it's natural that you might feel some fear that she will turn out to be a liar.

I never said i do this, i said some guy, not me.

Originally posted by Kailassa
Id suggest that, instead of suggesting all women are untrustworthy, you look at the real problem and protect yourself from unforeseen circumstances.

I never said all were untrustworthy. I said when pushed, lets be clear here i don't mean simple upset or a little bit of vengeance i mean the kind of emotional distress that causes people to crack. People work themselves into knots over breakups and other such things after all. In fact why not take a look at the link i provided to that false rape society. Plenty of stories there to prove the point.

Originally posted by Kailassa
After all, you are much more likely to catch an STD than to catch a false rape charge, and the commonest, genital herpes, is not prevented by condom use. And if you're picking up a girl who casually screws strangers, there are likely to have been plenty of others for her to catch things off before you met her.

Again i never said i personally would, and tbh i was never into picking up random girls.

Originally posted by Kailassa
And don't forget the possibility of fatherhood. No birth control method is 100% effective, and parenthood is generally for life.

Again i never said i did this, i said some guys do.However lets be clear shall we. You are basically excusing what a girl did because a guy assumed she was 18, in a club where you have to be 18 to enter. So it's not her fault that she lied to the police, her parents, the entire legal system? No it's the guy for not asking for ID. That's a very odd way of looking at it.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
. . .
Again i never said i did this, i said some guys do.However lets be clear shall we. You are basically excusing what a girl did because a guy assumed she was 18, in a club where you have to be 18 to enter. So it's not her fault that she lied to the police, her parents, the entire legal system? No it's the guy for not asking for ID. That's a very odd way of looking at it.

Now you're just making stuff up.

I challenge you to find one thing I've said which excuses anyone's bad behaviour, male or female.

However, now that you bring it up ...
A person under 18 cannot be expected to act as rationally as a person over 18.
Your putative friend is at least 18.
Therefore he can be expected to act more rationally than the under 18 girl you are postulating.

But, knowing that under 18 girls may be there, and may lie about their age, he won't ask for ID because that might stop him scoring with someone who, for all he knows, may be underage.

Poor boy. Wouldn't it be just too terrible if he didn't get to dip the wick that night.
I quite understand you thinking he should risk committing statuary rape than to risk a case of blue balls.


How old is he, by the way?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984It's a horrible thought, i could never think of myself doing such a thing, but i'm still not offended by the idea. However what i will say is this, you are comparing a physical action to a verbal one. Accusations of rape are easier to throw out then the physical rape of someone. The brain has cut offs for such things.

Uhhh...no apparently accusations of rape are NOT easier than raping someone.

If they WERE easier than most rapes WOULD be reported. But most are NOT reported because the victims do NOT want to go public and they do not want to be humiliated. If what you said were true, then there wouldn't be such a HUGE disparity between actual rapes and rape charges.

reply to post by Kailassa


Sorry i won't be bothering with that one further. You are basically saying it's not the girls fault for lying, causing a guy to go to court and have his life almost destroyed. I must admit i don't much like him, he's a friend of a friend and an idiot but i still think what happened was wrong. If she claims she is 18, in a club for over 18's then it is her fault alone. No one can be expected to ask for ID all the time.

Originally posted by Sonya610
Uhhh...no apparently accusations of rape are NOT easier than raping someone.

If they WERE easier than most rapes WOULD be reported. But most are NOT reported because the victims do NOT want to go public and they do not want to be humiliated. If what you said were true, then there wouldn't be such a HUGE disparity between actual rapes and rape charges.

Again Sonya it depends. Real victims blame themselves very often according to reports and so wouldn't want to make a claim. But if someone is simply emotionally distressed and lashing out without that feeling of it being their fault then it would be easier yes. Basically your comparisons are always based on very different situations.

Originally posted by Kailassa
If you really believe it's unreasonable to expect a man, picking up a young woman he does not know for sex, to check her ID, because that might "weird her out" and deprive him of an easy lay, then you obviously put a high value on getting an easy lay.


Id suggest that, instead of suggesting all women are untrustworthy, you look at the real problem and protect yourself from unforeseen circumstances.

So here you say that i shouldn't suggest all women are untrustworthy (which btw i haven't said, i said anyone can lose control temporarily, that's different). Then you say guys should ask for ID in case women are lying. Do you not see the contradication here?

If a 16 year old is lieing about her age it might be because she is an immature 16 year old. Most 16 year olds are. A guy asking her to verify her age is not unreasonable if he suspects she might not be legal.. why wouldn't he make sure?

..unless he thinks she might say no to proving it which means she's probably lieing about her age.. which would also mean he would probably have to decline an opportunity of sex.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

reply to post by riley


The ID thing makes no sense. How many million teens (male and female) have fake ID's saying they are 21 so they can get into and consume alcohol at clubs? If someone asks your age, it is not unreasonable to trust the answer.

Originally posted by Ace High
reply to post by riley

 

The ID thing makes no sense. How many million teens (male and female) have fake ID's saying they are 21 so they can get into and consume alcohol at clubs? If someone asks your age, it is not unreasonable to trust the answer.

If you really think there are millions of teens with fake IDs then it's safe to assume alot of the girls in clubs are underage. Why would you trust their answer if you believe thats the case?

If the club lets in underagers that is their problem and they risk losing their licence.. blaming the club for stat rape is ridiculous.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

i have been reading this "debate" for an hour now, and from what i can see, mis communication and a misconstrued views of intention are abounding. but i have no interest in getting torn apart by the females of ATS, nor as appearing a traitor to my own gender.

i do have one big problem which i MUST address. i am 22. i go to the clubs every so often. maybe twice a year. The process of getting into a club entails having an id that proves you are either 18 and above or 21 and above.

There are many young girls in these clubs, i know from when i was 16 me and my girlfriend would get into clubs with fake ids every other weekend. i also know that we were not the only ones.

That being said, i should not have to worry that there are underage girls in the club, but i do, because there are. But asking to see these girls ids is ineffective. after all, their ids are FAKE. Anyone in that club has an id that states they are AT LEAST 18. And some of these girls indeed look 18 when im pretty sure they aren't. Hell, some of them look 20.

My usual method of weeding out the jail bait is to chat them up. Some of the young'ns show their immaturity. But others do not. In fact, many young girls are more mature than you would think. Add to that a couple beers and a shot or two, and the ability to discriminate immaturity from tipsiness goes out the window.

Short of enforcing some sort of police state methods to ensure young girls and guys do not get into clubs, which i for one would not support, there is no solution in IDs.

Continue debating amongst yourselves.

love and peace

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Ace High
reply to post by riley

 

The ID thing makes no sense. How many million teens (male and female) have fake ID's saying they are 21 so they can get into and consume alcohol at clubs? If someone asks your age, it is not unreasonable to trust the answer.

If you really think there are millions of teens with fake IDs then it's safe to assume alot of the girls in clubs are underage. Why would you trust their answer if you believe thats the case?

If the club lets in underagers that is their problem and they risk losing their licence.. blaming the club for stat rape is ridiculous.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

Do I really think millions of teens have fake IDs? Of course. It's safe to assume both males and females are underage. I didn't say that I personally believe any of it, just that the ID proves nothing, it is just as reasonable to trust that you are being told the truth when you ask for an honest answer.

No one is blaming a club for stat rape? Where in the world did you get that from my thread. And about the license thing, what is the club supposed to do besides check ID? Demand a birth certificate? No, because that could be faked too. The only clubs that are shut down are ones that don't check ID's.

Riley how do you verify someones age?? ID could be fake. Trust what they say? Could be lying. Best case is to not put yourself in that situation IMO.

Originally posted by Ace High
Do I really think millions of teens have fake IDs? Of course. It's safe to assume both males and females are underage. I didn't say that I personally believe any of it, just that the ID proves nothing, it is just as reasonable to trust that you are being told the truth when you ask for an honest answer.

From a total stranger?

Riley how do you verify someones age?? ID could be fake. Trust what they say? Could be lying. Best case is to not put yourself in that situation IMO.

I agree. If people know someone so little that they can't even be sure how old they are they shouldn't be sleeping with them anyway. I personally don't sleep with stangers as it's dangerous on many levels.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Ace High
Do I really think millions of teens have fake IDs? Of course. It's safe to assume both males and females are underage. I didn't say that I personally believe any of it, just that the ID proves nothing, it is just as reasonable to trust that you are being told the truth when you ask for an honest answer.

From a total stranger?

Laugh all you want (I thought we were trying to have a mature debate but okay). You still are avoiding the question. You meet someone how do you identify their age? ID? Trust?

My answer is just as I said in my first post. You have nothing to go on other that to go by what they say, therefore, it is reasonable to expect a truthful answer. That does not mean you then have sex with that person.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Kailassa
If you really believe it's unreasonable to expect a man, picking up a young woman he does not know for sex, to check her ID, because that might "weird her out" and deprive him of an easy lay, then you obviously put a high value on getting an easy lay.

Id suggest that, instead of suggesting all women are untrustworthy, you look at the real problem and protect yourself from unforeseen circumstances.

So here you say that i shouldn't suggest all women are untrustworthy (which btw i haven't said, i said anyone can lose control temporarily, that's different). Then you say guys should ask for ID in case women are lying. Do you not see the contradication here?

Don't you see where some common sense should come into it?

You have stated that girls lying about age are a problem.

Yet you are supporting your friend in not checking up on the girl's age ....
for fear of weirding her out ...

You named the problem. You know the solution.
Don't whine to me if your nookie-needing friend doesn't.



And no, it's not different, because you are saying every woman, when pushed, is capable of make a false rape complaint.
In other words, you don't believe women can be trusted to not lie if they are under pressure.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Sorry i won't be bothering with that one further. You are basically saying it's not the girls fault for lying, causing a guy to go to court and have his life almost destroyed. I must admit i don't much like him, he's a friend of a friend and an idiot but i still think what happened was wrong. If she claims she is 18, in a club for over 18's then it is her fault alone. No one can be expected to ask for ID all the time.

Repeating a lie does not make it truer.
You accused me of this already, I asked you to show where I had said it's not a person's fault if they lie, and you didn't.
- Because you couldn't.

The law is the law. It is illegal to have sex with minors, whether or not they lie. This is not excusing minors who lie. However, as minors, they have diminished responsibility, which is why the law is protecting them in this manner.

If you swim where you know there are piranhas, you are likely to get bitten. Whether or not the piranhas are to blame for biting you is irrelevant, the bites hurt just as bad either way.

If you, or your putative friend, pick up young girls for casual sex, not asking for proof of age, knowing that some girls at the venue concerned lie about their age, then you are asking to get bitten.

If a man does not want to risk getting bitten, he could perhaps consider keeping his pants zipped up until he actually knows the girl he's with.


If you are wanting people to demand the laws protecting minors from sex with adults are changed, I could point you in the direction of some rabid child-molesters who'd gladly support your cause.

Originally posted by Ace High

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Ace High
Do I really think millions of teens have fake IDs? Of course. It's safe to assume both males and females are underage. I didn't say that I personally believe any of it, just that the ID proves nothing, it is just as reasonable to trust that you are being told the truth when you ask for an honest answer.

From a total stranger?

Laugh all you want (I thought we were trying to have a mature debate but okay).

Perhaps my judgment was clouded by a "mature" alert I just recieved. (doesn't bother me I just think thats a bit glass houses)

You still are avoiding the question. You meet someone how do you identify their age? ID? Trust?

The scenario I was given was picking up drunken girls in a nightclubs and having one night stands.. not the beginnings of a romance/relationship where you are establishing a repore with someone over a longer period of time.

My answer is just as I said in my first post. You have nothing to go on other that to go by what they say, therefore, it is reasonable to expect a truthful answer. That does not mean you then have sex with that person.

You expect a truthful answer from girls that might be lieing about their age? I'm not sure what you mean.. if you are just pointing out that some girls lie about their age.. I agree with you.

edit. removed that little bit.

[edit on 23-5-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by M157yD4wn
. . .
That being said, i should not have to worry that there are underage girls in the club, but i do, because there are. But asking to see these girls ids is ineffective. after all, their ids are FAKE. Anyone in that club has an id that states they are AT LEAST 18. And some of these girls indeed look 18 when im pretty sure they aren't. Hell, some of them look 20.

If you are not after sex, having some under age people around will not personally affect you.

If you are after sex, perhaps you should try getting to know a girl first.


Short of enforcing some sort of police state methods to ensure young girls and guys do not get into clubs, which i for one would not support, there is no solution in IDs.
In that case, see the above solution.

reply to post by riley


I understand what you're saying but I really never thought of it as "feminist ravings" only conventional anger, to be honest. I see what you are saying because I know it's a touchy subject for women seeing as how rape happens mostly to women. All I wanted to do was point out the specifics about the OP and wasn't quite understand why everyone was mad. While in your opinion he may have been unsure of his own post, I think we should just state that he needed to be more clear maybe?

Trying not to step on any toes here.

reply to post by Kailassa


i don't know if you just missed it, or "overlooked" what i said. i stated plain as day that my method of weeding out jailbait at clubs is to chat them up. usually their immaturity shows, and after a few minutes i move on.

i do not go clubbing mainly to get some lay. but if it comes about that i do get some, then that doesn't hurt either.

and getting to know the girl im talking to, at a club, is not how you make it seem in your statement. this is not a first date. at most there is 30 minutes total of talk between us, and depending on intent, most of that talk is complete bs. filled with lies anyway. you have no idea how many fake names i've gotten. or given for that matter.

and alcohol makes it much harder to use my critical thinking skills in assessing female age. especially when these girls already look legal age. Add alcohol an they begin to look much older than they looked before alcohol. And immaturity sounds like tipsiness.

my two humble cents

love and peace