The Power Of The "R" Word

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by riley
You are implying that rape cases are not fair? Judges and juries are chosen so they are not tainted by public opinion.

Juries are public and therefore biased. Whilst they are supposed to be neutral, they generally aren't neutral about rape. People hear rape and immediately judge, generally speaking.

No. Generaly speaking they have rape kits and physical evidence. Rapes rarely make it to the court room unless they are particularly violent and a good case can be made.

Firstly you cannot compensate a guy for this, that is the point. It is the point you are missing. The simple accusation is enough to last a lifetime, even when cleared it hangs around someones neck. The same with accusations of paedophilia, it will never go away.

and you cannot compenate a woman for being raped but thats life.

I would not say reopen, i would say there needs to be a study to fully view the statistics because as far as i'm aware there is not a set of statistics that shows the convictions rate vs the false conviction and false accusation rate. It just hasn't been done, unless you can link official government figures for me in which case i will happily read them.

We already have them.. and you said yes they are a minority.. but nnow you are saying studies should be done.

Which suggests you do not believe the official stats.

You talk of appeals but you again miss the point! Once accused, once taken to the police station and questioned and all your friends and family and work friends hearing of this, your life will never be the same. I have read about guys who have gone through this and it is utterly terrible. Oh and the alledged victim is on trial, that is part of the trial when these question the alledged victim. The lawyer questions their story and all that.

Some thieves and murderers are innocent too. It's same thing.. I do not know why you expect rape suspects to be given special treatment above other suspects.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

I'm sorry but you can live in your world and be happy with thinking that certain people can never do bad things. It is however wrong, when pushed hard enough, people will do bad things.

yes - sometimes, as I just mentioned - men rape and brutalize innocent women

people will do bad things

again - what do you suggest be done here?

do we stop taking the claims of women less seriously?

we consider rape a less serious crime than it is?

you're so worried about innocent men being victimized by vindictive low life women - I think you need to step back and get a feel for the real percentages involved here - innocent victims: men vs. women

it's an awful thing when anyone innocent of a crime is forced to pay for it - but your real argument is with the justice system

it seems to me your problem is about something else entirely

what could it be?

[edit on 5/22/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Well it's a slight rant at how unfairly the public view a guy standing in the dock being accused of rape. I can assure you it's about nothing else, but feel free to speculate.

As for what can be done, well i think bringing the media to task would be a start. Any rape case that hits the media is treated unfairly and people need to start suing over it. I don't like people suing but yeah it needs to start with the media on such cases.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
again - what do you suggest be done here?

do we stop taking the claims of women less seriously?

we consider rape a less serious crime than it is?

you're so worried about innocent men being victimized by vindictive low life women - I think you need to step back and get a feel for the real percentages involved here - innocent victims: men vs. womenp

Oh so one innocent going to prison is fine as long as we get the rapists out there? Percentages matter little to an innocent person who is convicted. I'm sorry but i don't accept that. You know what could be done is an extensive study on rape victims. The police as i mentioned earlier already started this, but it needs to be even more in depth so that flase accusations can be easily spotted. This wouldn't involve any invasive or hostile interviews, just an understanding of behavior in rape victims.

and no it should be considered more serious not less, i'm tired of rapists getting 3 or 4 years in prison, needs to be life.



[edit on 22-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by riley
We already have them.. and you said yes they are a minority.. but nnow you are saying studies should be done.

Which suggests you do not believe the official stats.

Before posting this thread i searched for the UK stats on false accusations of rape, false convictions of rape and rape conviction rates. Whislt i can find figures for rape convictions i cannot find figures for the false accusations and convictions. If you have them then PLEASE provide them as i would love to go over them. Thank you in advance.

Originally posted by riley
Some thieves and murderers are innocent too. It's same thing.. I do not know why you expect rape suspects to be given special treatment above other suspects.

Actually it's not the same thing. When found innocent murderers and thieves don't tend to have long term adverse effects to their lives. When false accusations of rape are made it does. On top of that i was trying to point out what seems to be an increasing level of false accusations being made. Hearing about them in the past was rare, now it seems more and more common. What do you put this down to? Unless of course you can provide official figures to contradict how it seems, in which case i'll apologise.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Well it's a slight rant at how unfairly the public view a guy standing in the dock being accused of rape. I can assure you it's about nothing else, but feel free to speculate. As for what can be done, well i think bringing the media to task would be a start.

Any rape case that hits the media is treated unfairly and people need to start suing over it. I don't like people suing but yeah it needs to start with the media on such cases.

I'm not sure you are really going to consider what I'm about to say the way you should - but, if you're going to take this seriously:

do you have any idea how many innocent women have been raped who were never believed?

never even given their day in court?

who made it to court and were humiliated - in public - for even making the claim?

who were later forced to live in a world where her rapist walks free - because no one believed her?

get real Imaginary -

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


I altered my post before yours, i am fully aware of all you say, i am fully aware that many women drop charges as well because the system doesn't support them. I am in full agreement that women should be supported in their cases, i have no issue with this at all in any way. What i am asking for is for a start, more research on the behavior of rape victims so the police are more equipped to easily recognise false reports.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

What i am asking for is for a start, more research on the behavior of rape victims so the police are more equipped to easily recognise false reports.

it's not an exact science - and god help us if justice comes down to our depending on people being able to read our minds

innocent people - as I mentioned - go to jail for all manner of crimes Imaginary

none of those innocent men and women are any more or less deserving of real justice than men falsely accused of rape

forgive my anger - I just found your accusations against women in all this to be oddly specific

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by riley
We already have them.. and you said yes they are a minority.. but nnow you are saying studies should be done.

Which suggests you do not believe the official stats.

Before posting this thread i searched for the UK stats on false accusations of rape, false convictions of rape and rape conviction rates. Whislt i can find figures for rape convictions i cannot find figures for the false accusations and convictions. If you have them then PLEASE provide them as i would love to go over them. Thank you in advance.

Maybe they are not enough to count in a stat given only about 10% of rapes end in conviction anyway.

Originally posted by riley
Some thieves and murderers are innocent too. It's same thing.. I do not know why you expect rape suspects to be given special treatment above other suspects.

Actually it's not the same thing. When found innocent murderers and thieves don't tend to have long term adverse effects to their lives. When false accusations of rape are made it does.

I think being locked up for murder for twenty years would effect them.. and convicted thieves.. for that matter anyone who has served time unjustly would have trouble finding employment. I still see NO reason why rape suspects should get special treatment over other suspects.. unless of course you think women should be immediately suspected of being liars.

On top of that i was trying to point out what seems to be an increasing level of false accusations being made. Hearing about them in the past was rare, now it seems more and more common.

Just because it makes headlines doesn't mean it's happens all the time.

What do you put this down to? Unless of course you can provide official figures to contradict how it seems, in which case i'll apologise.

I put it down to media beatup.

Now incidentally you are trying to AGAIN imply it's happening all the time. I argued this exact same point with you earlier and you and a mod accused me of trying to derail your thread.

So is it "many" or not?

You claim you get unfairly taken out of context but there's only so many ways you can "not" say exactly the same thing.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis

forgive my anger - I just found your accusations against women in all this to be oddly specific

Erm accusations? I linked stories and speculated on what people can do when pushed, all of that is backed up by science and history. however i apologise for making you angry.

Whilst obviously people mnind reading everyone flawlessly is impossible, what could be done is a larger study on the reaction of real rape victims vs the fake ones. This was started in 2001 if you check the article i linked and it seems to have helped. So should we not launch another big study of it? Whilst smal studies are always ongoing i think something more large scale should be done.

This wouldn't have to be publicised, the rape victims wouldn't have to know, in fact it is best they don't so as to not skew the results. Basically i'm calling for a more wide scale study and a tourniquette being put on the media to stop them going after everyone accused of rape in such a horrid manner. Although i must admit i would extend that tourniquette to any trial currently ongoing. The media are supposed to be restricted from commenting about ongoing cases, but they seem to get away with it all to often.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Oh so one innocent going to prison is fine as long as we get the rapists out there? Percentages matter little to an innocent person who is convicted.

so, let me get this straight -

you have no real solution other than to start doubting the sincerity of women and teaching the police how to tell who's lying?

again - why so concerned about just men falsely accused of rape?

why aren't you working for the cause of all those falsely accused and convicted(men and women) - of anything?

why the rape angle?

why the anger at women?

the Power of the "R" word - indeed

again - oddly specific

Originally posted by riley
I think being locked up for murder for twenty years would effect them.. and convicted thieves.. for that matter anyone who has served time unjustly would have trouble finding employment. I still see NO reason why rape suspects should get special treatment over other suspects.. unless of course you think women should be immediately suspected of being liars.

I'm sorry but you are now taking this to far, implying i think all women are liars, you should be ashamed of the way you are attempting to manipulate people into your way of thinking. I am not asking for special treatment of rape suspects, i am saying that currently they get abnormal amounts of media attention and that juries are often not fair on the jedgement. This could easily be fixed by preventing false claims from getting to court to start with by STUDYING real and false claims.

As i linked earlier this had been done somewhat in 2001 but not enough it seems.

Originally posted by riley
I put it down to media beatup.

Now incidentally you are trying to AGAIN imply it's happening all the time. I argued this exact same point with you earlier and you and a mod accused me of trying to derail your thread.

So is it "many" or not?

You claim you get unfairly taken out of context but there's only so many ways you can "not" say exactly the same thing.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by riley]

I never mentioned many, i said an increase. Lets remember an increase can be 1% or 500%. Don't keep trying to twist things around, i'm getting severly tired of it. All you do is twist words and try and deflect arguments made. In fact you never even provided the figures you were on about, you said they already existed then you say they may not exist because of the low incidence of convictions. Should we not therefore set up a study as i suggested?

I have not said the same thing, you just are manipulating my words to your own ends. I'm not sure if it is intentional or not.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
so, let me get this straight -

you have no real solution other than to start doubting the sincerity of women and teaching the police how to tell who's lying?

again - why so concerned about just men falsely accused of rape?

Because as stated rape has an added horror to it. The thieves and murderers tend to get fair trials and the evidence tends to be good. The people undergoing rape trials however often have biased juries (because of it being rape) and sometimes only testimony. I never said to doubt sincerity of women! I simply said to study real and false claims so that the police could accurately identify the false claims. Is that really so bad? Is it so awful to educate law enforcement so that they can better do their jobs?

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
why aren't you working for the cause of all those falsely accused and convicted(men and women) - of anything?

why the rape angle?

why the anger at women?

the Power of the "R" word - indeed

again - oddly specific

As explained above, i was in a conversation with friends about this very topic, it came up after dscussing that really horrible case of the guy who stabbed his girlfriend to death after she had spent months trying to prosecute him for rape and then gave up because she just couldn't continue. She should have gotten more help from the police of course as her case seemed genuine. But the conversation went on from that to this.

So not that odd really, just something that was rattling around in my head when i got home after a long discussion.

BTW it is not anger at women! If you don't think that the "R" word has a rather horrible power i don't know what to say. I mean think about it, when a guy gets even accused of rape his life is over, destroyed, gone. When he's accused of being a thief? Well once found innocent he's not that bad off tbh. people will forget, things blow over etc.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
I'm sorry but you are now taking this to far, implying i think all women are liars, you should be ashamed of the way you are attempting to manipulate people into your way of thinking.

YOU are talking about having "studies" into rape cases. The ONLY way to do that would be to re-investigate each complaint made to see if it is false.. in other words see if the woman is a liar.

I have not said the same thing, you just are manipulating my words to your own ends. I'm not sure if it is intentional or not.

You used this trick before. Maybe you could accuse me of trashing your thread again and I'll get another good talking to for derailing your thread. Either way it's not an argument and I have not been taking your words out of context.. and if you are going to continue talking to me I would appreciate it if you would not continually accuse me of such as it antagonises.

So ON TOPIC what would you have police do exactly? Dispense with the rape kits? the photographs? Make the victims take a lie detector test to make sure liars a filtered out? Make sure she didn't pay someone to beat her up? Make sure she was dressed modestly and wasn't drinking or flirting?


..as has been said before only a handful or rapes get reported and convicted.. and only a handful of those would be false so I think the odds are stacked against anyone who even considers reporting a rape

[edit on 22-5-2009 by riley]

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

If you don't think that the "R" word has a rather horrible power i don't know what to say.

oh no - I absolutely believe the word has a great deal of power - horrible

I also believe that sword cuts both ways

I think it's disingenuous to bring the topic up at all - and then be surprised at how or why it would make women angry

it's as if you believe women are incapable of understanding how wrong a false accusation is - that we needed to have it pointed out to us that lying is wrong - and that men are very vulnerable in situations like this

perhaps I really don't understand at all -

what is your real message to women then?

What the hell? You do realize men are raped too? There are several cases of men being raped every year, around the globe. A lot of this happens to very young men or men who are in the prison system. Or, sadly enough, young men who are left alone with priest (just check out all the money insurers are giving out for this every year).

Originally posted by riley
YOU are talking about having "studies" into rape cases. The ONLY way to do that would be to re-investigate each complaint made to see if it is false.. in other words see if the woman is a liar.

Read above and you will see there are other ways of doing it.

Originally posted by riley
You used this trick before. Maybe you could accuse me of trashing your thread again and I'll get another good talking to for derailing your thread. Either way it's not an argument and I have not been taking your words out of context.. and if you are going to continue talking to me I would appreciate it if you would not continually accuse me of such as it antagonises.

You got warned because you were out of order, the mods are not stupid, they can read for themselves.

Originally posted by riley
So ON TOPIC what would you have police do exactly? Dispense with the rape kits? the photographs? Make the victims take a lie detector test to make sure liars a filtered out? Make sure she didn't pay someone to beat her up? Make sure she was dressed modestly and wasn't drinking or flirting?

Lie detector test? Absolutely not those things are flawed beyond belief! As for your suggestions that we drop photographs and rape kits you are again trying to be bombastic about things to try and trivialise the points made. The rape kits are brilliant for helping a case as are photographs. A combination of DNA and physical damage is hard to refute and the photographs can actually yield clues like knuckle spacing that just adds more evidence.

As for dressing modestly, i'm not sure where that one came from.

Originally posted by riley
..as has been said before only a handful or rapes get reported and convicted.. and only a handful of those would be false so I think the odds are stacked against anyone who even considers reporting a rape

[edit on 22-5-2009 by riley]

This is sad and i am well aware of the statistics. What i would say is campaigns also need to be done to encourage women to come forward. I find it very sad when a guy gets caught and women come out after 20 years of suffering with the event. Do not get me wrong, i am not trying to discourage rape reports, only encourage better education in the police, fairer hearings in the courts and a stop on the media reporting on accusations when criminal proceedings will be going forward.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
What the hell? You do realize men are raped too? There are several cases of men being raped every year, around the globe. A lot of this happens to very young men or men who are in the prison system. Or, sadly enough, young men who are left alone with priest (just check out all the money insurers are giving out for this every year).

Yep but men don't use it as a weapon, at least not very commonly because reporting it will make them look pathetic. I know that's stupid thinking but it is what most men think, they fear reporting rape.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Yep but men don't use it as a weapon, at least not very commonly

Some men have, young men have claimed, along with the help of their parents, that they were abused by members of the Catholic Church for money.

The majority of women do not use it as a weapon either.

Most women never even report it, just like most men do not.

This happened to a person that I knew. He was in a relationship with a woman and they were both crazy. On the last of their many breakups, she cried rape.

He was arrested and charged. He got bailed out. There was a court order that he could not communicate with his accuser yet she would call him multiple times a day and want to get together.

He told his lawyer what was up and I strongly suspect that he got some advice from the lawyer but he would never say that.

So when she called again as usual, he let her know that he couldn't talk to her anymore because his lawyer told him not to... It was against the court order. A little while later she dropped all the charges so they could "be together" again.

Once the charges were dropped and all was said and done, he left town to get away from her. She tried to reinstate the charges and the DA told her to take a hike.

So, for you guys out there, don't date crazy people!

For anyone who has been raped, my deepest and most sincere sympathies. I don't want to minimize this crime in the least.

I think perhaps the Op bit off a more than he can chew. Not sure if he REALLY believed he would get a lot of folks openly supporting his position on this topic. LOL.