Remnants of the Illuminati

Originally posted by emsed1
Hehe... sorry to be absent as of late.

I have been 'herding cats' at work...

"The number is THREE......"

Out of interest, do you and EnlightenUp understand each other? These little exchanges of yours leave me quite baffled, not sure if it is a gender thing, nationality or something else altogether. It's all a bit 'Ptang, yang, kipper-bang'.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by emsed1
Hehe... sorry to be absent as of late.

I have been 'herding cats' at work...

"The number is THREE......"

Out of interest, do you and EnlightenUp understand each other? These little exchanges of yours leave me quite baffled, not sure if it is a gender thing, nationality or something else altogether. It's all a bit 'Ptang, yang, kipper-bang'.

Gracia a dios por imdb.com.

I won't even touch his last one in a direct reply for worry of ruining his life and I do possess a modicum of decency. I think he is revealing to me how many licks it takes to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop but only if Moloch is the Master of Ceremony.

Ain't nothin' but a G (geek) thang.

Also, have you noticed the turn of phrase 'herding cats' with increased frequency lately? I have noticed it used within earshot more in the past week than in my entire life previously. Perhaps the increase in usage reflects a growing and collective sense of futility under an outdated world paradigm? Who might be trying to bring it to the forefront of our conscious awareness by repeating that idiom if not ourselves?

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Also, have you noticed the turn of phrase 'herding cats' with increased frequency lately?

No I can't say I have, I obviously move in the wrong circles.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
I have noticed it used within earshot more in the past week than in my entire life previously. Perhaps the increase in usage reflects a growing and collective sense of futility under an outdated world paradigm? Who might be trying to bring it to the forefront of our conscious awareness by repeating that idiom if not ourselves?

One of my cats, Jack, urinated in my shoe yesterday, just the one, the left one. Now I can only wonder if it had any significance to the herding of his kind but either way I have washed the offending shoe, so any message that he may have etched in wee is long gone. Besides, he is a stupid cat, very cute, but stupid. If it had been his brother Bruce I would have known instantly that something was affoot (pun incidental), he is fluent in several languages, though sadly not English, but we get along quite well in a kind of 'pidgin' Koine. I doubt that he would deign to respond to the enquiry, I suspect that he would smile at me indulgently, shake his head in mock admonition and go back to his crossword, quietly tutting to himself over my inability to grasp that 'herding cats' may not actually refer to the furry variety.

Well, as you were.

Oh, and thanks for the clarification there. Most helpful.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


G'day Bruce!

'Ello Bruce!



(sorry couldn't resist)

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Also, have you noticed the turn of phrase 'herding cats' with increased frequency lately?

No I can't say I have, I obviously move in the wrong circles.

I was being completely sincere.

It must be a divine message especially for me.

However, I think emsed1 has now gone completely loco and is on the floor in the corner, rocking to-and-fro mumbling gibberish to himself.

Oh, and thanks for the clarification there. Most helpful.

Denada, senorita.

Where do we go from here? Originally emsed1 set the condition that we should assume the Illuminati do not currently exist and then share evidence supporting their existence.

Which Illuminati? Beyond the original Bavarian Illuminati, which is a documented fact, what I have encountered is charachters on the internet making fantastic claims or claiming their particular brotherhood is the genuine lineage, haphazard attribution to groups of individuals perceived to be in powerful, lofty positions in society, even if no particular person is identified or association to many secretive or semi-secretive groups thought to have arcane knowledge and possibly mysterious rituals.

As a result, the term 'Illuminati' no longer possesses any definite meaning. Who, what, when, where, why, and how lack definite answers. The connections and their meaning that are drawn from the old order to today's world depend upon the creativity of the researcher and author.

The real element in question has primacy to all definitive labels. It is a master of trasformation. It manifests itself in many forms under many names but what is seen it not the thing itself. The form it takes is the form given it by the creative power of the individuals, whether comprising a group with a specific mission or working on their own. Seemingly common threads do not necessarily indicate a lineage. Some are roots, some are leaves, connected to an unseen, primary stem.

Illuminati alert!


This character registered today.

Pseudonym: theneoilluminati

Supposed Realnym: Jason St. Denis Brown

This Is An Official Transmission from the N.I.

The REAL Continuity of Operations Plan

The Cheat Code of Reality


[edit on 6/18/2009 by EnlightenUp]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Illuminati alert!

 

This character registered today.

Pseudonym: theneoilluminati

Supposed Realnym: Jason St. Denis Brown

This Is An Official Transmission from the N.I.

The REAL Continuity of Operations Plan

The Cheat Code of Reality

Some intersting stuff he has put up there. I'll reserve judgement for the time being.

He is on My Space though...photos too.

www.myspace.com...

viewmorepics.myspace.com...

Obviously not the shy retiring type like our Maban, lacks some of his social skills seemingly too.

Bless his cotton ones...

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Some intersting stuff he has put up there. I'll reserve judgement for the time being.

Perhaps a creative way to promote a band?

Whatever it is, I thought it amusing that another appropriating the name surfaces around the time I posted about that sort of thing.

He is on My Space though...photos too.

Yeah, I saw that stuff. No secrets obviously.

Bless his cotton ones...

Boxers or briefs?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by emsed1
Hehe... sorry to be absent as of late.

I have been 'herding cats' at work...

"The number is THREE......"

Out of interest, do you and EnlightenUp understand each other? These little exchanges of yours leave me quite baffled, not sure if it is a gender thing, nationality or something else altogether. It's all a bit 'Ptang, yang, kipper-bang'.

kilgore -



I cracked up laughing at your reply - hilarious!

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by kshaund
I also personally don't believe the future is never set and remains always in humanity's hands and no one elses! Just sounds too pat especially in light of all the crap raining around us (H1N1 flu and its obvious deadly end; war; recession; FEMA, etc. etc. etc.) and we're supposed to believe we can change it?????

Why shouldn’t we be able to change it? We made the situation, humanity, surely we therefore have the capability to turn it around. The Swine Flu is only another flu, it is only a pandemic because it has affected individuals in more than one continent. It is no deadlier than any other flu and it will unlikely kill as many as the Spanish Flu, it certainly will not kill anywhere near as many people as malaria and HIV are killing, but the difference is those people are not white, and we care less about non-white nations.

Recession? So what? FEMA? So what? There are far more serious problems affecting humanity and this planet, but we worry about ourselves and as long as it doesn’t touch us we don’t really see it. Swine flu, bird flu, FEMA, recession all provide the necessary distraction from the fact that people really are suffering, rather than sitting around worrying that they may one day suffer…which is what you are doing.

Originally posted by kshaund
We've been lied to since we were created hundreds of thousands of years ago - this lumen thing is suppose to have been here for millions of years observing - well observation isn't going to help us - only divine intervention will since we've been slaves for ever with virtually no hope of ever knowing the truth because their "plan" is flawless as it has worked for billions of years everywhere else –

If we were created as you believe then it was a darn sight longer ago that a few thousands years ago. By my estimation, any interference, positive or negative that occurred in our development would have had to have taken place at least 5 million years ago around the time we went bipedal. Any later or for that matter earlier and it makes no sense, for me that is the only possible window of opportunity.

I agree that Divine intervention may help, but unfortunately it seems that most of us are unaware of how to recognise that divinity even when it slaps us in the face with a wet fish. The majority are looking for it in entirely the wrong place for starters. Until we realise that, we will be enslaved, but through choice, we are just reluctant to acknowledge that we have that choice, the alternative, to blame, to claim powerlessness, is so much easier.

Originally posted by kshaund
I could liken it to a borg mentality ruling us - the shadow government, whatever you want to call it, has been around forever doing this and we can change the future?!? Is that what they told all the other civilizations taken over ?

The shadow government, may exist, but it can be seen if you look closely enough at how institutions and systems function. They don’t hide themselves, not really, they don’t need to we’re all pretty much in their thrall as it is. We passively sit by paying our taxes so that they can wage wars and rape the planet. We get ourselves into a frenzy over an outbreak of the sniffles, while children are dying, horribly and painfully from disease and conflict, which we in the West have the power to stop. Before long Africa will have suffered the depopulation that those in North America so fear hitting their doorsteps, but think about it, why kill off those that have an income to pay taxes and a disposable income to buy the crap that all their exploitation of resources provide for us to buy, when they could kill off the poor black Africans and then take over their resources wholesale. Just look at Tanzania, the World Bank has lent millions for the industrial, agricultural and communications development of the country, it has provided no loans to support education and health programmes of the indiginenous peoples who are being devastated by the Malaria, HIV double whammy. By the time Tanzania comes on line as the new bread basket of the world there is likely to be very few Tanzanians left and the country will be ripe for whitening.

Originally posted by kshaund
All we can control is our response to everything. All we can do is learn as much as we can about our real origins and understand how trapped our souls literally are here. We cannot change what they've been doing for billions of years! It's (I think) very revealing as to Maban's lack of deep knowledge and irresponsible to again foist upon people "you can change the future, it's in your control" - I say BS it's in our control! That's one of the great lies - it doesn't mean we can't maneuver, but that we are in charge of our destiny and karma and and and all that other stuff that keeps us as VICTIMS! We created this reality - therefore " insert blame here " and if you don't change it then YOU are " insert blame here ".

It may keep you a victim, it most certainly doesn’t have that effect on me and I do believe that we can change but I appreciate that there are too few who truly understand that as yet. But onwards and upwards, while there is life there is hope as someone recently said.

Originally posted by kshaund
Sorry - I just don't read any depth in Maban's message. I believe he is a fraud for that reason

Does there necessarily have to be any depth to the message? I find it is the simplicity of the message that touches me, it is plain and without need for thought and contemplation, it is what it is. Refreshing somewhat. Of course the interpretation is all my own, as is how I intend to implement it, personally, but perhaps you are looking too hard, or maybe you are looking for someone else to answer all your questions. And of course that all elusive, media promoted, hero.

Out of interest, you have referred a number of times to your own research into our origins but you have not sourced that information or extrapolated in any way, to my knowledge. As far as I can recall no one has called you a liar or a fraud for your inability or unwillingness to do that. As I say, sometimes it is in the simplicity, ‘treat others as you wish to be treated yourself’, ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’, ‘judge not lest you be judged’. I may not believe all that Maban has said or claimed to be, but I am assured of his good intention, and since he has never asked me to prove myself to him, why should I not afford him the same courtesy?

I'd like to reply to all this, but I'm not adept at the quote/quote stuff - I just don't believe we can create our future (in its entirety) and that its our fault for the present (in its entirety) because we have been manipulated as 'citizens' for as long as its been. It could well be millions of years back that we were tinkered with, as you suggest. But tinkered with, yes, I believe that is so. I believe God, as generally perceived by any religion, is nothing more than a genetic scientist and ancient manipulators in our face, yes.

I believe that the general nature and spirit of humans is to want peace, not war and that we at this citizen level are kept here with our tvs, etc. And yes, we are passive, because we are influenced to be that way, fluoride, medication, etc. etc. etc. But that's not our fault, so when any philosophy goes in the direction of, well you created it so you change it, I get a little peeved...

And to clarify the (in its entirety) above - I believe we have some freedom to create and change our world and life, but I also see throughout history that the governments have never stopped ruling the citizens and there has always been war and it's all to just us dumbed down. So yes, its up to us how we respond to situations and circumstances, we can change our 'selves' - if we're fortunate we can change our environment and if we're extremely fortunate, we can even have the time and luxury to enjoy a good discussion about life because billions of others don't have the luxury or do and are too shallow to even ponder possibilities.

References - we have a portion of our brain called the reptilian cortex. We all in the first weeks of gestation have a tail that withdraws. Books, Darwin's Black Box is a good one. Sitchin Books, Sumerian history, Terra Papers, Gods of Eden (William Bramley), origins of goddesses (like Barbara Walker Books), David Horn (Can't recall name of his book) all go back to the gods coming from the skies and their abilities to create and have galactic wars -

We're conditioned to overlook or pooh pooh aliens in religion... for a reason... it doesn't matter what you believe in, it's all belief systems set up to keep us ignorant and subservient and living in fear and, and, and.

So, simple truths, absolutely are powerful - and can come from anyone, anything, anytime. I always separate the message from the source - and always take a message that matches the source as more credible.

I find the messages are hopeful, but I wouldn't want to 'rest' on the words as being ultimate truths. That there were three accounts opened that caused the closure made me think there was intentional deception, head game, whatever it was, especially when I'm dead, no I'm not, well I'm not wanted anymore so.... those are my reasons. It's a judgment, but not as in good or bad, as in worth more of my time or not with him/her/it. I decided not...

reply to post by EnlightenUp


Thanks for the lead, I thought this guy was a complete crack pot for the most part. But what I believe now and compare it to say a year ago and my old self would think my current belief and understanding is crazy. After eating my own words so many times one has two choices, go crazy or open your mind to other possibilities.

With a universe so vast and the fact scientists can account for only 4% of matter in the known universe causes me to be much more open to new possibilities. There will be things we'll never know, I love a mystery.

Out of all his threads I'd say The Cheat Code of Reality is the most interesting. If it's credible, it's hard to say unless someone can cross reference it to some sort of source.

Any who, thanks for sharing.





- Omega

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Boxers or briefs?

Socks! Bless his cotton socks!

Originally posted by kshaund
kilgore -

I cracked up laughing at your reply - hilarious!

Sadly the prognosis is not good. The shoes, which were, prior to the 'incident', a perfect marriage of comfort and red suede loveliness, have lost their vibrancy.

I am not sure they will recover and I am quite devastated.

reply to post by kshaund


I lived up in southern Washington for a a while, the whole experience for the most part was a completely life changing experience. Being I grew up in LA most of my life. I've traveled on vacation many times, when I was younger I'd travel with my father all over the world, so I've seen many parts of the world but this area was special.

The whole purpose of my stay was to get in touch with my self, essentially. With such a busy and crazy life in LA, Washington helped clear my mind and helped discover an an abundance of wisdom. To this day I believe the whole year that I stayed there, there was something "magical" about my whole experience.

I agree that belief systems can tie you down and subject you subversive control but I think it depends on what type of belief system your talking about. If your speaking of "organized religion" then yes it's very easy to fall prey to that trap.

For a open minded person, they are much less likely to fall in such trap because there objective but open minded.

I grew up in a very strict Christian household. There are many things, over time that I don't agree with but am I going to sit around and point fingers? No I'm not, this is counterproductive, you are never going to win over any minds that way.

There are many great truths and to this day I'd call my self an open minded Christian but I do not feel a need to attend church or go to a priest to account for my sins.

There are countless others like me, who later in life separate the good from the bad after there freed from all the non-sense control.


[edit on 20-6-2009 by oconnection]

Originally posted by kshaund
I'd like to reply to all this, but I'm not adept at the quote/quote stuff - I just don't believe we can create our future (in its entirety) and that its our fault for the present (in its entirety) because we have been manipulated as 'citizens' for as long as its been.

I don't think that it is our 'fault' as individuals, but I do think we share a collective responsibility. The question of manipulation is a difficult one and it is only, I think, when you step outside can you see how much we participate in our own manipulation. 'They' honestly don't have to do very much at all.

Originally posted by kshaund
It could well be millions of years back that we were tinkered with, as you suggest. But tinkered with, yes, I believe that is so. I believe God, as generally perceived by any religion, is nothing more than a genetic scientist and ancient manipulators in our face, yes.

It is certainly possible, but then a great many possibilities are. As I have said before I don't trouble myself with the all the various possibles, it is, IMO, a waste of my time, unless there is fun to be had there, I leave it alone. I do not though believe in any 'god', religious or otherwise. And I don't particularly like the idea of us having been tinkered with, simply because I get such an enormous pleasure from the natural world and the seemingly randomness of creation. Additionally, if those tinkerers came from this universe then, according to my feelings on the matter, they are made of the same stuff that we are (I favour Convergent Evolutionary theory), so we would have got there in the end anyway. Comme ci, comme ca.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by KilgoreTrout]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Denada, senorita.

I knew those seemingly endless hours of Dora the Explorer would pay off eventually. In fact, I wonder whether I find you more comprehensible in another language....hmmm?

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Where do we go from here? Originally emsed1 set the condition that we should assume the Illuminati do not currently exist and then share evidence supporting their existence.

See there we go, you've lost me again.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
As a result, the term 'Illuminati' no longer possesses any definite meaning. Who, what, when, where, why, and how lack definite answers. The connections and their meaning that are drawn from the old order to today's world depend upon the creativity of the researcher and author.

The real element in question has primacy to all definitive labels. It is a master of trasformation. It manifests itself in many forms under many names but what is seen it not the thing itself. The form it takes is the form given it by the creative power of the individuals, whether comprising a group with a specific mission or working on their own. Seemingly common threads do not necessarily indicate a lineage. Some are roots, some are leaves, connected to an unseen, primary stem.

Reading this, I was reminded of when Maban came back at christmas and at some point he had a paddy about people U2Uing him asking for help or 'saviour'. He seemed genuinely upset, understandably I suppose, and he said something about the Illuminons just being individuals living in housing estates, operating on their own. It rang with a greater truth than anything he had previously said about the 'Illuminati', and to be quite honest it wasn't until then that I had felt any sense of fealty with Maban and his 'cause'. As I recall it was about that time that I pledged my liege to him, so disarmed was I by this show of vunerability.

Edit to add: Have you noticed that when we post to this thread it gets bumped onto the headline or whatever it is bit at the top of the board but that the Shards thread was never listed there, not once, even though it was at times the only active thread on the board? Funny that.

[edit on 20-6-2009 by KilgoreTrout]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Denada, senorita.

I knew those seemingly endless hours of Dora the Explorer would pay off eventually. In fact, I wonder whether I find you more comprehensible in another language....hmmm?

Es una curiosidad que tu me crees mas ententible en otra idioma. Porque? Mi ingles no es facil a comprender? Creo que es porque mi mente esta afuera esta realidad.

Tengo un gato en mis pantalones.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Where do we go from here? Originally emsed1 set the condition that we should assume the Illuminati do not currently exist and then share evidence supporting their existence.

See there we go, you've lost me again.

Originally posted by emsed1
In other words, if we assume the "Illuminati" do not exist, what evidence do we have that can prove their existence?

If emsed1 meant only Maban's group, I can say I've not found anything of more import than World of Warcraft guilds or the like. Personally, I felt his statement to be more general to the 'Illuminati' moniker.

Reading this, I was reminded of when Maban came back at christmas and at some point he had a paddy about people U2Uing him asking for help or 'saviour'.

As I understand it, some were asking for employment as well but who can blame them these days? I think the only open position was for 'petty cash officer' but that was filled by a small, green reptilian creature with a British accent that utilizes van der Waals forces from nanoscale hairs on its feet to steadfastly adhere to polished surfaces. Noone else had the slightest hope to compete with that.

He seemed genuinely upset, understandably I suppose, and he said something about the Illuminons just being individuals living in housing estates, operating on their own.

I am quite handy around the house, being able to fix pretty much anything. I'll admit it; I have even made clothing. This may sound like a good thing but as soon as people believe they can turn to you to do everything for them they will inevitably cease to try on their own. Before long, the deluge of service requests will be overwhelming.

Edit to add: Have you noticed that when we post to this thread it gets bumped onto the headline or whatever it is bit at the top of the board but that the Shards thread was never listed there, not once, even though it was at times the only active thread on the board? Funny that.

I always accessed the thread from the 'My ATS' personalized page and nothing appeared suspicious.

[edit on 6/21/2009 by EnlightenUp]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Es una curiosidad que tu me crees mas ententible en otra idioma. Porque? Mi ingles no es facil a comprender? Creo que es porque mi mente esta afuera esta realidad.

You may have a point there.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
Tengo un gato en mis pantalones.

Declawed I presume.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
If emsed1 meant only Maban's group, I can say I've not found anything of more import than World of Warcraft guilds or the like. Personally, I felt his statement to be more general to the 'Illuminati' moniker.

Yes I think that I understood that. However, do we assume that there is a secret group of 'Illuminati'? That illumination can be 'given' to those that seek it? Or do we work on the assumption that such a group doesn't exist and that what in fact we have are many individuals in relative isolation and without a cohesive goal? That is, rather than a group of like minded individuals with a common goal, we have many individuals, who in isolation, are working on seperate or individual goals, but with the same eventual goal in mind.

We can assume that there are those who work for materialistic or selfish goals, proportionately, what is there to counteract that? Does that make sense?

I'm struggling to explain what I mean here, so indulge me a little if you can. But if say, someone like Maban or yourself for that matter, felt that they had something of import to express, he could justly claim lineage to all who have been illuminated, including the Bavarian Illuminati (in principle), but that would not mean that he was a member of a larger group, simply a 'follower' of a much older body of knowledge and tradition.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
As I understand it, some were asking for employment as well but who can blame them these days? I think the only open position was for 'petty cash officer' but that was filled by a small, green reptilian creature with a British accent that utilizes van der Waals forces from nanoscale hairs on its feet to steadfastly adhere to polished surfaces. Noone else had the slightest hope to compete with that.

Sounds like Grey Matter from Ben 10.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
I am quite handy around the house, being able to fix pretty much anything. I'll admit it; I have even made clothing. This may sound like a good thing but as soon as people believe they can turn to you to do everything for them they will inevitably cease to try on their own. Before long, the deluge of service requests will be overwhelming.

Clothing for yourself?...I really think you should provide photographic evidence to support that claim, I'm suspecting a kaftan...I stopped telling people I sew a long time ago, or I would be forever making curtains or hemming trousers.

Do you cook too? Your lady should count her blessings, you sound like a catch.

[edit on 21-6-2009 by KilgoreTrout]

Originally posted by kshaund
So, simple truths, absolutely are powerful - and can come from anyone, anything, anytime. I always separate the message from the source - and always take a message that matches the source as more credible.

I was first given the nudge, so to speak, from another member (the wonderful Illusionsaregrander) on these boards, I was until that point incredibly oblivious, and more over, quite happy in my insignificance in the greater scheme of things. It was the following that gave me a brief glimpse of the potential, and as time has gone by, that has helped me to realise that I am significantly insignificant. It may not effect you quite so profoundly as it did me, for me it was like a kick in the gut, and admittedly, it took me a while, once I had begun to understand the potential, to step out from the shadows and seek out my own path. Anyway, this is it, make of it what you will...

The Dark Mountain

"There have been so many great souls. The Gods have blessed us with so many great voices that have given us words of wisdom and love. I have often been puzzled why with so much wisdom available, humanity still seems so lost.

So, as I often do, I asked "Why?" I asked the Gods why it is that even with such an abundance of direction we so often lose our way. In answer, I was given a dream.

In the dream, I was looking at a mountain at night. Covered in darkness, except that there were small points of light here, there and everywhere. All of these lights, from the bottom to the top were moving.

Then I "Knew" why we get so lost. Like being on a mountain at night, it is pointless to call out explicit directions to someone moving below you. You cannot see where they are, nor do you know where on the mountain they began. You cannot see their path, nor even the steps that they should take to move up towards you.

At best, you could call out to them how YOU got to the place you are. But if they followed your directions explicitly, and were not in the right place, exactly where you were when you took those steps, those directions could send them plummeting off a cliff. Or onto a ledge where they might be stuck.

The only thing left then, is to SHINE. Shine as brightly as you can, while moving towards the summit on your own, following the light of those ahead of you. Those below can then use YOUR light as a beacon as they pick their own way along the treacherous pathway. Each of us has to find our own handholds, and place our own feet. If we fall, we must find within our Self the determination to begin the journey again. But the lights moving above can give us the sense of the possible. They can give us a direction to move in, something to move towards. But that is all anyone can be, a light in the darkness. No one can tell you in detail where to place your hands, your feet, nor give you the strength to climb.

So climb. Look to the bright lights ahead of you, but look knowing the path is yours and yours alone. Dont shout to those below with too much detail, their path is also theirs and theirs alone. Just shine. "

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just a few days after Illusions posted that for me, I attended Liturgy at my son's school, and I stood at the back crying my heart out as these four and five year olds celebrated Jesus as the light of the world, and how they in their innocence, truly understood what that meant, and how that all we have to do is make sure that those children retain that knowing, instead of allowing life to beat it out of them and replace it with a sense of futility forcing them, like us and so many before us, to rediscover that which we are born with.

Funnily enough though, it is the indoctrination of those rituals like Liturgy, that aid in creating the problem, as soon as we attempt to conform to an 'ideal' we lose something essential.

Also posted by Illusions in the same thread...

(From the Tao de Ching.)

38. Ritual

Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.

Harmony does not care for harmony, and so is naturally attained;
But ritual is intent upon harmony, and so can not attain it.

Harmony neither acts nor reasons;
Love acts, but without reason;
Justice acts to serve reason;
But ritual acts to enforce reason.

When the Way is lost, there remains harmony;
When harmony is lost, there remains love;
When love is lost, there remains justice;
But when justice is lost, there remains ritual.

Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Belief is a colourful hope or fear,
The beginning of folly.

The sage goes by harmony, not by hope;
He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
He accepts substance, and ignores abstraction.

www.abovetopsecret.com...













[edit on 21-6-2009 by KilgoreTrout]