I mean this quite seriously

reply to post by octotom


So he is omnipotent when it convienient? Wouldnt' he have already known we would fail, didn't he already know what lucifer would do? THESE are the things I dont understand.

reply to post by stereovoyaged

So he is omnipotent when it convienient? Wouldnt' he have already known we would fail, didn't he already know what lucifer would do?

Yes, since God is omnipotent, he did know that it would happen. But, he still wanted a group of creation that would willingly choose to worship him--something that couldn't have happened if he'd created entities that had no choice in the matter.

By the way, I'm still waiting for you to point out the silliness of other faiths outside Christendom. [Preferably the oddities in your belief system.]

My friend, as I stated previously in this thread, I wish I was more aware of other religions and their sillyness But alas, I am not. I live in a Christian dominated area that is not very culturally segregated at all. I am however looking into more religions to better my undertstanding of it all.

And as for my beliefs, I believe in the "I don't know" and "logic" systems. EX. How was the earth created?? I don't know, BUT logic tells me an invisible man in the sky didnt' make it in seven days.

Was Jesus the son of God? I don't know, but logic tells me he was just a dude.

Did moses part the red sea? I don't know. but logic tells me no one can do it today, so how could he do it then.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
I think it is important to understand the MOST IMPORTANT part of religion.

AFTERLIFE.

How can "You cease to exist" even hold a candle to "You continue to live for eternity in an awesome place where you can do anything you want with everyone that ever lived."

It cannot. Neither can "I do not know".

Also saying "the universe was at one time compressed into a small space then it expanded" is no where NEAR as amazing as saying "An all loving caring being who Knows everything, can alter time, space and basically do ANYTHING created all of this and he CARES about you INDIVIDUALLY and looks after you and you can TALK TO HIM and ask him to HELP YOU and your friends and take an active part in your life."

People get scared when they think about dying. I GET SCARED when I think about not being able to think anymore or have access to my memories. People do irrational things when they get scared. Especially when in a group. It is SO EASY to provide someone with an AMAZING sounding answer to the scariest part of life. I think that is why religion is so successful and there are so many branches of religion.

Yah, that fear of dying, with all the potentially terrifying unknowns involved, has always been one of the major points to be used for manipulation by any 'religion'. Because we are blocked to our memories of past lives and such, it leaves us wide open to any who wish to control or subdue us, via the 'if you don't do what we say, then you will go to HELL when you die' thing.

Luckily for me, I have managed to access the memories of my past lives, (and a lot of the memories available in the collective unconscious/ racial unconscious/ askaric library or whatever name you might give it), and I know for a fact that there is no heaven or hell; just on to the next life you go, depending on what your highest self and you work out as the next step in your personal growth plan.

What I also found though is that if you live your life badly, the spirits of the ones you have hurt are waiting for you right outside of death's door, as you pass over, and they latch on to your spirit and share the feelings of pain they got from how you treated them. It isn't really judgment, so much as making you understand their pain and also about teaching you how to treat and NOT treat other people.

So as you can see, if you did a lot of very painful things to others, like killing and torture and such, that passage out into the next life can be quite sucky. I had a lot of mercenary lives early on in my time here as a human, and so had quite a few of these kinds of passages, till I wised up and started being a nicer person.

My memory of it is that it is a lot like having your skin stripped off and then being thrown in boiling oil over and over again without the luxury of dying. That is why I believe the myth of 'hell' is so believable and usable by most every major western religion as a way to get us to do what they say. Our spirits remember the burning feelings clearly and want to avoid it at any cost.

So in general I would say, I totally agree with the author of this thread. Don't let them manipulate and control you so easily, eh? Sure, finding your own true spiritual path is harder than just buying a handy pre-made package like Christianity, but in the long run you will end up much closer to 'god' than if you try to do it some pre-designed way that was never really meant to connect you to 'god'; instead just meant to control and manipulate how you act thru guilt tripping and shaming.

Just consider for a moment; would a dictator rather have a population of people who 'abhor' violence and won't lift a finger, much less a gun, in their own defense, or a population that is quite willing to defend themselves against leadership abuse? Hum?? Turning the other cheek is sooo peachy keen for a leader who is abusing his subjects, eh? To say nothing of bosses, slave owners, etc.

Get a clue, people!

[edit on 19-5-2009 by DragonriderGal]

reply to post by stereovoyaged


Its called taking a symbollic intepretation of the Bible.

Seriously, the fact that you didnt understand that simple point is rather hilarious. Think about it, you have an ALL powerful/loving/knowing God who makes woman from Man's rib?

Seriously...

Originally posted by Elepheagle

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
Without belittling anyone’s religion,

Well, unfortunately, you mention "Christians" specifically by the end of your post; so by singling them out to think more critically, you may have done just that: belittled them.

Hum... so just because someone points out what seems foibles to them about what another believes, this is 'belittling'? Seems more like an attempt to inform or point out the obvious, to me. Belittling would include insults to their intelligence, calling them dodo heads, saying their mothers were crack whores or some such, for choosing to believe as they do. The author was quite polite from what I see; my interpretation of the author's statement about 'silly' was his opinion of the foibles of that particular religion, not that the believers were silly.

[edit on 19-5-2009 by DragonriderGal]

[edit on 19-5-2009 by DragonriderGal]

Originally posted by Tayesin
Perhaps everyone should ask themselves a question, "Why do I believe what I believe?"

Instead of arguing over the beliefs people may finally understand how the Indoctrination Process works from our very early childhood.

As I like to say, just because there is belief in a thing does not make that thing real.

You are a very wise person. I look around around society and wonder why it's set up the way it is? I certainly wouldn't have it this way. Pitting people against people, belief against belief, makes little sense to me. We are all here on this planet sharing the resources. I say let's party and stop bickering...enjoy life. Live and let live.

Why is it that when people single out a religious belief - it's christianity?

Why don't you single out muslems???? jews??? atheists??? buddists???

I'll tell you why, it's because you are an ignorant s.o.b.

Don't come on this site and tell people to believe or not to believe in something.

Your post really p-d me off.

reply to post by stereovoyaged


I mostly agree with you. But yeah, talking snakes, Jonah inside a whale for three days, and all that noise. Of course, see Ken Wilber's The Spectrum of Conscousness for one explanation of the symbolism of the myth(s); of course, most christians believe in it "literally," so i get your point.

Disagree about the animals, or at least my argument taking a christian perspective (even though i do not consider myself a chriatian) Noah's ark: supposedly god "made" the animals to come to the ark, since there is no way Noah could have rounded them all up.

Something else to think about: Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel, their first offspring. Cain slays Abel and then leaves/is exiled to a farway land. Cain gets a wife. Now, from where did this wife come??? It's just plain silly, absurb, yet Christians do not question it.

Not to mention there are many other things that make no sense about religion...

Just had to throw that Cain gets married absurdity in there.

reply to post by tomfrusso



You know, out of all the replies I enjoyed yours the most. Did I really offend you that much by being a skeptic or *GASP* dare I even say, have an opinion Lilke really, I would like to think that us ATS'ers are above name calling. Unless your twelve, are you twelve? If your twelve thats ok, I understand.

Such conviction, such anger. Dude, all I asked was for someone to explain to me how something so outlandish as the things in religious lore can be so widely accepted without ANY rebuttle. But once again, someone got thier WWJD thong in a tangle and lashed out in anger.

reply to post by Liquesence


Thats what I mean, no one questions it, at all, ever. And the very talk of it sparks a ATS jihad. These people pick every video, picture, claim, article, etc down to absolute dust. But tell them that people can't live in whales and all hell breaks loose. I respect thier conviction, I do. I just wish they could converse in a two sided convo rather than a shouting match.

Originally posted by Boogley

Catholics are not Christian.

Firstly, Catholicism is the very first form of organized Christianity. The protestants came much later... Martin Luther and Calvin ring any bells? Guess what? Martin Luther was originally a CATHOLIC!!!

You know, some "christians" really need to read up on the history of their religion, and quit claiming they know so much about other belief systems when they don't even know the history of their own faith.

[edit on 19-5-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by DaMod


Sorry but I didn't mention Yahweh, Lord Krishna, or Allah once did I? No your talking about organized religion's version of god. Any human made version of god would fall short, because we all know you cannot explain, describe, or know anything you do not understand. God by definition would be far beyond our understanding therefore no religion could be correct. Besides the underlying teaching of even Christianity is a really good one. Just because an Idea has been used at one point for death and destruction does not ultimately make it a bad or wrong idea.

Any idea when put in the wrong hands can cause these things.

I think its about time I do my science of god thread...

[edit on 18-5-2009 by DaMod]

I agree totally and I think this should have been your first post as I think people may have misunderstood your point at first.

In my view Religion is an insult to the true meaning of God. People who blindly follow a religion and say they have found God are only deluding themselves. God can not be found in this existence but only sought after.
The Quest for God is everlasting.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
[ Dude, all I asked was for someone to explain to me how something so outlandish as the things in religious lore can be so widely accepted without ANY rebuttle.

Do you honestly think that ANY Christian anywhere hasn't questioned their own faith? You did. Do you believe that you are the only enlightened person raised in the Christian faith to ever "open their eyes" to the "illusion"?

To set you right, the answer is no.

Every Christian doubts. Every Christian must come to his or her own decision...usually daily. That's what you've experienced. That's what all have experienced. You've made up your mind (at least for now) that you are going to accept things one way. Others make up their mind in another way.

And your attempt to pardon yourself of all wrong doing is the true offense of this thread. It is not the fault of the person listening if offense is taken. It is the fault of the speaker.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
reply to post by tomfrusso

 

...all I asked was for someone to explain to me how something so outlandish as the things in religious lore can be so widely accepted...

A very smart man once called it "tribal wisdom" - it's true because it's always been true...

Experiential wisdom or knowledge, I think. The point is that you are indoctrinated early on during childohood - conditioned - to believe the masses and made to fear from the very beginning. Disillusionment begins around the time you start paying attention to world news and seeing what people do to each other or themselves in the name of this deity or that.

A point to ponder:

Christianity is a young religion
Islam, younger still
Judaism is getting up there in years, but still not the oldest.
Buddhism as well

These are just examples but none of them came from the beginning of man...

Man worshipped the Sun. When man was able to write (pictures first, then words), Sun worship became a little more complex. Man began to describe his universe (environment) with the tools he had.

A few hundred thousand years pass...

Man notices other lights in the sky that move along at regular intervals throughout the day/night cycle. He gives these lights names and attributes human qualilties to them (because of their colors).

More time passes...

This goes on and on...before Judaism and Christianity are even a "twinkle in the eye". The point is that there is no "one true faith". It's all in the perspective of the believer(s). For one person/group/society to say that their way is the "only" way is arrogance.

I apologize in advance as my grasp of the ever-widening histories of varying religions is slipping. I will try to do no harm.

Christianity forced its way into the world because of man - read about the Crusades. Not very heroic at all. More like murderous.

Islam is forcing its way into the world - Fundamental Islamic rule from governing bodies is its goal. Just as murderous.

Death by fiery immolation to make a protestation - what religion is that? Self murder.

Drink the magic punch so we can join the spaceship in the comet. Mass self murder.

These are examples of people taking the meanings of faith to the utmost extremes as only humans can.

Mr. Stereovoyaged: Let that confusion wash away with this thought: believe in yourself. You know what is right and moral in your own heart (just as every human does - we feel it). Follow that. Read the literature of other religions and take from them the best of each. Add that to your belief. No one person is ever completely right and when you get a bunch of men arguing about who is right (note that there are very few "official" religious publications written by women), you get a bunch of different opinions.

To answer your question directly: Religious lore is so widely accepted because ignorance is so prevalent. People choose to not know more than they want to. We rationalize the implausible and chock it up to miracles. We indoctrinate the masses with the stories of these miracles over and over until they are generally accepted and, over time, become de facto and eventually, de jure. When less ignorant (or rather, more open minded) people come along and question the "common law", they are shut down or ridiculed or beaten down until they too, toe the party line.

It's about control and nothing more. "I have control because I know how to play on your fears..." - that's religion.

I know you've read all the posts from the start - so have I. It's all in there...just reread them and you will see that I speak the truth.

Peace brother.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
Without belittling anyone’s religion, do you ever just sit back and think about all you believe in. Can't you see sometimes how it just seems.......silly. I mean, some mother goose stories are saner. And I don't mean this again as an insult, just a call for Christians to take a deep look at what they believe logically. For instance:

1. Man made by God, and they a woman made from his rib, tempted by a talking snake, eats a piece of fruit and condemns the world to sin?? So man hears voices and is call skitsophranic, man hears voices and calls its God and he is a prophet?

2. ALL....not some, not chosen ALL of the animals on Earth pair up and go in this boat and live for 40 days and 40 nights while the whole planet is flooded, then a few ppl and the pairs of animal repopulate the planet?? Really???

3. A dude walks on water, heals sick, turns water to wine, comes back from the dead, etc....

I can go on with more examples but we all know them, so no need to do so. People believe this so greatly and all without one single iota of proof. In the "bible days" god would talk to people, or show miracles etc, but every since people started questioning him, seems like those things have disappeared. I don’t know about you, but I have yet to see one parted sea in my 26 years of life, you know few years ago, God could have done Asia a solid and saved a quarter million ppl from being wiped off the face of the earth in a Tsunami.

Just saying people, look at this with an objective mind and be more rational.

Do not look out for "god".................

Look into yourself.

All religions are 99% pervesions and 1% truth.

The point is to ignore all that invites you that is not yourself, follow only yourself, and believe only yourself.

Beliefs:

The Divine One penetrates everything and is Benevolent, for it creates all good.

Everything is under order of Divine Law, which will never change for it is CONSTANT.

The Universe that we live in Physically is a living entity and is indeed
concious of itself as the Universal Mind, it is governed by Divine Law,

The Universal Mind, people, you, me, your computer, your dog, the sky, every single piece of existance is all singular and one for the Universe is ONE thing.

Therefor by looking within you are looking into all.


just some thoughts.

-Psycho

Originally posted by WickettheRabbit It is not the fault of the person listening if offense is taken. It is the fault of the speaker.

Yep, I get angry when I am told by some "Speaker" the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, or when some "Speaker" tells me some Humans are "abominations", or when some "speaker" can't see the forest for the tree in his eye.

My personal favourite is when some "Speakers" show up at a funeral and picket the parents because their dead children are abominations.

You are bang on though. Some "Speakers" can certainly offend.

In my opinion, the OP is not one of them.

You can NEVER argue against a God for a religion.

If you have a question about why he did something it was

"His will and humans are not meant to understand it"

"The work of Satan"

How can you try and convince someone that God killing people is NOT a kind thing to do when you can NEVER understand a being so perfect. It was HIS WILL!

Same goes for ANY question you could ever ask someone about their God. It was HIS WILL and you are NOT meant to understand it.

Until the Coolaid man smashes through that brick wall no other argument for any religious scripture means diddly.

Good Game. GG.

1. Man made by God, and they a woman made from his rib, tempted by a talking snake, eats a piece of fruit and condemns the world to sin??

This was an old story, interpreted by many. One thing you left out was that they were guarded by a robot armed with a laser at the cave.

So man hears voices and is call schizophrenic, man hears voices and calls its God and he is a prophet?

Most of what we have as Christian religion is mixed with other info, since those people had no good science back then to debunk anything, but consider that certain sections such as the Revelations may be entirely true, since they came from Christ directly and were written word for word. Religion is not to prove anything, it is for those who want to believe. If you read the bible you would understand this most important fact. I do find it sickening how people have added to it, but that's not my religion.

2. ALL....not some, not chosen ALL of the animals on Earth pair up and go in this boat and live for 40 days and 40 nights while the whole planet is flooded, then a few ppl and the pairs of animal repopulate the planet?? Really???

Yes, but who knows. It's an old story that could be missing info. What we do have that seems more convincing to me than anything is an image of the most perfect being, the son of God, in the Shroud of Turin. He also said that "He who has seen my face has seen the fact of God". ; meaning they look identical.

3. A dude walks on water, heals sick, turns water to

yes!!! more than just a dude though, an immortal being beyond your comprehension.
Live in fear of what you may not know, don't pride yourself on what you do know.

I'm with you on all but #3 -- has occurred many times in history

In general -- we are all insane. Frankly it's true. Everyone has had that experience where they say "what was I thinking?". We all get led by the mind, it is a terrible, terrible liar. We all have moments, days, weeks, years of believing things that we later think where completely ridiculous. We all have them in our minds right now waiting to be revealed. That doesn't mean everything we believe is wrong and every direction we take is incorrect, it just means that it is a lot more naive than we realize.