I mean this quite seriously

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
Thank you for stating these issues. I often thought it funny that biblical scholars would back up the bible using the bible itself. If you look at society though that is how it is structured. The belief itself justifies the belief. 9/11 commissions report is the truth because it is the truth. Religions are truth because the bible says its the truth. Going to college makes you smart and qualified, because people that went to college say that is what makes you qualified. Me stating the above is the truth, because it's true to me.

So what really is the truth? How about everything is truth. Let's start there. Everything is truthful to somebody, so who gives us the right to tell someone else what their truth should be? Why should we structure society into a pyramid scheme of forcing truth on everyone? Are we all slaves to a system designed to misdirect us from living our lives free without deception to what is true to us?

Awesome post!

Well ALMOST EVERY culture has a creation and flood myth like Adam & Eve and Noah's ark. That's really all those are, myth's told to generation after generation to give them morals. Right vs Wrong. Now it is curious that almost every culture has one, so either a flood really did happen, or they were just really popular among ancient men spreading from earlier to later cultures. But answer me this... why flood myths? Why not fire, wind, earthquake, or volcano, myths? That is puzzling to me.

Also the bible's creation myth does have some credibility, in the beginning there was nothing then light, sounds a lot like some explanations for the big bang theory (see/read angels & demons).

As for the rest of the stories? Well its pretty much accepted that the people described in the bible were real people, it's just whether the bible elaborates. A lot of times ancient man used metaphors to describe what they could not understand. You can say that Jesus never existed, but a lot of historians would disagree with you.

There are also lots of stories relating to God that aren't in the bible, such as some of the Saints like Joan of Arc, and she is a very historical figure.
So do I question what I believe in? Yeah, everyday, who doesn't? I have faith that there's a higher intelligence. Do I take every word in the Bible as hard facts? No it was written by ancient man, who again used symbolism, and metaphors to explain what they didn't understand.

Even the Theory of Evolution has holes in it. I was watching an episode on UFO hunters where there's a city in the Andes mountains that is basically an engineering mystery that's about 10,000 years plus old. An advanced civilization in South America, possibly older than the Egyptians, uh... that's not supposed to be there...

Originally posted by ivycutler

Originally posted by DaMod Any human made version of god would fall short, because we all know you cannot explain, describe, or know anything you do not understand.

Is there a non-'human version' of God?

And how do a group of, presumably, humans discuss this then without falling short?

What if you couldn't? What if any discussion of the true nature of 'God', by man, were doomed to inevitably fall short of completeness and accuracy? Would that invalidate the postulate advanced by DaMod? Or just brush up against human and scientific arrogance?

If a 'god' is postulated as omniscient and omnipotent, then that entity must, by definition, contain and control any and all attempts at its description. What does that say about the completeness of those attempts, then?



[edit on May 18th 2009 by Ian McLean]

reply to post by Ian McLean

has there ever been a 'fruit of knowledge' in your life, that when you tasted it, you were not aware of the complete extent of the implication of that knowledge?

I believe you could well be describing my first experience with a vagina.

reply to post by Ian McLean

If a 'god' is postulated as omniscient and omnipotent, then that entity must, by definition, contain and control any and all attempts at its description

Unless the entity developed amnesia ?

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
Without belittling anyone’s religion,

Well, unfortunately, you mention "Christians" specifically by the end of your post; so by singling them out to think more critically, you may have done just that: belittled them.

Anyhoo, I'm don't follow any particular faith, but I am curious...do you single out Christianity because it's the only line of faith teachings that you know of, or have been exposed to? Because if you think parts of Christianity is silly or weird, look into some of the gestation of Eastern religious traditions. That stuff's out there.

However, as it's been said in this post already, one needs to understand ancient man's frame of mind; we can do as well as we can with that attempt, but the fact of the matter is we can only understand ancient man's mind under the context of being trapped within our on contemporary minds. Hee hee.

That said, a post or a suggestion like this isn't going to get those folks who literally believe that it was a snake, it was a rib, it was a flood, etc. As to the other side of the fence, many have already gone down that path. You're just a bit late to the party. Cheers, and happy hunting!

Originally posted by moocowman
I believe you could well be describing my first experience with a vagina.

Yes, birth does that to people.

Originally posted by moocowman
Unless the entity developed amnesia ?

Would the knowledge of that development have to be concealed, also? If you can so speculate, apparently not. Or, perhaps then, simply made unprovable. Which sort of undermines the entire definitiveness of the logical approach, does it not?

Ah, epistemology.... such a succour, on day such as today....

The main problem here is that information is tweaked as it is passed down. As time passes translation is picked apart and then rebuilt into something more puzzling. Also worth noting is that original text is also tweaked from the winners point of view like history is or tweaked by limited understanding and then, usually disguised in metaphor and mysticism for a variety of reasons. I think what needs to be understood is people thrive off of entertainment. People generally are looking to be entertained through whatever means available.

If I had limited knowledge, which I do, and then tried to explain my beliefs or some other persons beliefs, or even a factual account of something that literally happened, my explanation would be limited to the amount of knowledge I had and what I understood, therefore making my explanation somewhat ludicrous, metaphorical, nonsensical and simply hard to understand if the translator were from a different time period or had a different culture. Taking everything into account, everything should be carefully considered and examined which is not what usually happens with the majority of people that are religious. It is the power of brainwash, self induced denial and many other things for many different reasons. It seems ridiculous but with proper understanding you can understand how it is happening.

Organized religion is a scourge upon the minds of the weak. It is also very contagious if you haven't noticed. No matter how ridiculous, illogical, childish and silly someones beliefs may be, the mind believes what it wants to. The eye see's what it wants to.

I could go on forever. S&F!




[edit on 18-5-2009 by N3krostatic]

Thats just it. They haven't stopped. I can name several occurances just off the top of my head..thats just happened to ME..that were amazing.

Thats the rub. For most people of faith--the miracles happen.

Just as a sideline though.

I do see your point; its well taken, but by the same token..how many people believe what they say on television..that can be proven wrong, but won't look at that possibility because..it was on television?

At least I have incidents to point to. All most have is a cable bill.

)

Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by DaMod

 

So your agnostic, and believe more or less that God created the earth, and has just really been surfing the andromeda galaxy and is playing 'jacks' with black holes, a god vacation?

Now your just being condescending which shows me our inability to grasp even the concept because in your mind you cannot accept even an iota of the concept. Therefore your opinion of god will be the only that matters to you in your life, and your ears will be deaf to everyone else. That's cool. To each their own i suppose.

I beleive god created everything, which would include a world much bigger than our spec of blue flying around constantly ignorant in the cosmos. His objective might be life and life alone. If that is the case then we are not the only world he created, and therefore could have no possible idea of what is really going on. Heck we still don't even know if we are alone in the universe or what gravity really is. How can we understand something as complex as a being beyond our ability of computation?

I beleive being Agnostic (even though I am not) is fair. You did however get the definition of agnostic wrong.

Agnostic: Someone that allows for the possibility that god does or does not exist, and thinks that it doesn't matter either way.

[edit on 18-5-2009 by DaMod]

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
Without belittling anyone’s religion, do you ever just sit back and think about all you believe in.

Everyday.

Can't you see sometimes how it just seems.......silly.

All the time.

And I don't mean this again as an insult, just a call for Christians to take a deep look at what they believe logically.

Christians? If you seriously mean this then you would have to put the question to every and all religions and creation stories of the world.
For instance, in Australian Indigenous belief the land was transformed by Spirit Beings who rose up from the earth and created their surroundings out of themselves.
Once they had finished their creative endeavors above, they proceeded to go back into the earth, often becoming something else as they 'sat down'. e.g. a landscape feature such as a palm tree or rock etc.

None of it makes sense in the slightest but the Spirit Beings gave the Aborigines the Law in which to live by. They taught them the way of hunting, gathering, kinship patterns, taboos and created the clouds, hills, billabongs, grasses and trees.
It enabled an incredibly rich and harmonious way of living for the Aboriginal people and who could argue with that?
Just because their origins are not perceived to be very 'logical' - in fact, they were doing just fine until the European settlement swept in with their 'superior' and more 'rational' societal dispositions, and interrupted them with such acts that could only be described as genocide in some areas.

You tell me which is better off?

Just saying people, look at this with an objective mind and be more rational.

Maybe we could learn a thing or two from the 'crazy' illogical side of things, hmm?

Originally posted by DaMod

Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by DaMod

 

I'm sorry it's seen as 'God' Bashing, we don't want to hurt an Omipotent beings feelings or yours.

It's just for atheists, we don't see it as absolute unaltered fact of everything, the ultimate theory of everything. We see people raising there hands, killing others and speaking in absurd tongues, like well crazy people. It's a bit disturbing.

Don't worry, we're not bashing Yahweh, or Lord Krishna, or Allah. The OP just pointed out that, it's kinda silly. I mean who can really live in a fish for a few days. (Well you'll just say god can do anything, but not many homes in fish today). We also don't see the point in killing infedels who don't agree with the muslim religion. It's all kinda silly.

Sorry but I didn't mention Yahweh, Lord Krishna, or Allah once did I? No your talking about organized religion's version of god. Any human made version of god would fall short, because we all know you cannot explain, describe, or know anything you do not understand. God by definition would be far beyond our understanding therefore no religion could be correct. Besides the underlying teaching of even Christianity is a really good one. Just because an Idea has been used at one point for death and destruction does not ultimately make it a bad or wrong idea.

Any idea when put in the wrong hands can cause these things.

I think its about time I do my science of god thread...

[edit on 18-5-2009 by DaMod]

Very well put. How can we explain what we don't understand?
WE CAN'T! We can attempt to and fail miserably branching from opinion to opinion, from religion to religion, from metaphor to metaphor. Ultimately we don't know or understand and some people just can't accept that so they put their opinion on God and the weaker minded fools follow along organizing into religion for whatever reason they do it.

Originally posted by ivycutler

Originally posted by DaMod Any human made version of god would fall short, because we all know you cannot explain, describe, or know anything you do not understand.

Is there a non-'human version' of God?

And how do a group of, presumably, humans discuss this then without falling short?

If there were a non-human version of God I feel that this God would cease to exist as God is a seemingly man made interpretation of what is unexplained or unknown.

reply to post by pretty_vacant


I agree with you one some of what you said, especially the part about the Aborigines.

To add something on the subject. We have been around for thousands and thousands of years. Many recent scientific discoveries have been made thousands of years ago by a "lesser" more "illogical" people.

Look at the craftsmanship we have lost over the years? The pyramids for example. They needed no cranes and no modern tools yet they built a wonder of the world. To us that very concept is unfathomable. Swords forged and engraved with pristine precision that we could only make today with a machine. Monoliths made by ancient man with such mathematical precision that only a computer could do that for us today. So who are the ignorant ones really? Sure we can make microchips but can we build a pyramid with no modern tools to perfect mathematical precision. Can we match the perfection of some ancient engraving and metallurgy? In fact it almost seems (due to western society somewhat) that the more we advance the more primitive we become. We rely on machines for what we could once do ourselves.

reply to post by N3krostatic


But who are we to define god? Would god cease because our definition is wrong? I think it is not up to us to define god.

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by N3krostatic

 

But who are we to define god? Would god cease because our definition is wrong? I think it is not up to us to define god.

That is a great question and great answer. To Muslim's, Christianity is wrong. To Christian's, Catholics are wrong. And who really cares except for the ones that care. I do believe in a god, but it has nothing to do with religion.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
To Muslim's, Christianity is wrong. To Christian's, Catholics are wrong. And who really cares except for the ones that care. I do believe in a god, but it has nothing to do with religion.

Now, you should know that's troll-bait. The Muslim concept of God, by their dogma, quite clearly include the Judeo-Christian concept of God. And Catholicism is generally considered an organized practice of Christianity.

But your point about the distinction between a conception of God and the practice of religion is well taken.

reply to post by stereovoyaged


Since when is a personal choice such as religion up for debate by someone other than the person that believes or follows it. I understand why people would research it and build up evidence for or against it but you have to understand something about religion .. it's a BELIEF. That means that whoever follows it, blindly or not, believes in it. It's accepted as real in their mind. Who are you to argue it with someone like me? Is it really that bad to have good beliefs? So what if it all seems like fables - I don't steal, kill or cheat, so why question me about it? I believe there is more to life than what I see around me and I think that the Bible is one of many sources to help you understand this. Why don't you question yourself? Why is it so hard for you to accept the belief in a God and it's quite easy for me? Do you *believe in nothing? Even if you did, it doesn't mean you're "right" about all of this, it's just your belief. You understand?


Also, many of the stories in the Bible weren't meant to be taken as literally as you did in your post. Like someone else said if you study more into it and seek a deeper understanding you'll realize this.

Originally posted by stereovoyaged
3. A dude walks on water, heals sick, turns water to wine, comes back from the dead, etc....

That doesn't sound silly at all.
That sounds, at the very least, very evolved. At most ... very descended.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
To Christian's, Catholics are wrong.

Catholics ARE Christians.


[edit on 5/18/2009 by FlyersFan]

reply to post by Boogley


It is up to debate since it decides what happens to people of other beliefs. It is a HUGE part of government and it needs to NOT BE! RIGHT NOW we have a HUGE DEBATE about gay people being able to get married AND IT BASED SOLELY ON RELIGION! There are no Atheist groups protesting gay marriage that I have ever heard of. The religious right SURE AS HELL likes to tell them what they can and cannot do. THAT is why it is SO ULTRA important to talk about religion!