Reheat - Hole in the Ground

reply to post by weedwhacker


But even if it was shot down, wouldnt we have larger pieces of the plane scattered across the site? Like if the wing came off or engine, wouldnt it be discovered relatively intact? And it would be kinda hard to hide a wing or an engine that broke off. Also, no one mentioned a second crash site or rest site of a wing or engine farther away from the main site. As it was said before, the only secondary debris was the light debris, ie paper, cloths, fabrics, etc, obvious debris that would be carried by winds. There were no large sections of the cabin or wings, or very large fragments found anywhere.

Like the Lockerbie PanAm bombing, that plane blew up and broke up over 30,000ft up. And yet, there were still plenty of large pieces of the aircraft recovered, including the now infamous front cabin and cockpit section. So if on 9/11 this plane was "shot down" and broke up before impacting the ground, we should have seen much larger pieces of debris over a wider area, not shreds of aircraft. I'm surprised no one on the "Truth" side ever thought of this little complication.

reply to post by tezzajw


So I suppose the fact that a plane drove itself into the ground, and that some debris (like an engine) had to be dug up does not compute for you that the force of impact was that great enough to do so was also enough to turn the plane into itty bitty pieces? And why didnt any of the first responders, or those that were digging up and picking up the pieces afterward even notice or wonder why the engine was buried like that? You mean to tell me not a single professional crash scene investigator with years and years of experience under their belts didnt find it so strange, but a bunch of uneducated, uninformed, amateur guys with zero background in airplane crash recovery, or investigation or anything, who sit all day and night in their parents' basement online on conspiracy sites, have managed to figure out that it was "planted" by some invisible magical group/s of sooper sekrut agents without a soul noticing. Right.

Hey you know what? I guess we should do away with such professional personnel and organizations like the NTSB, FAA, FBI, fire and police departments, and crime scene investigators, who have been trained for these situation, since obviously they have no clue what they are doing, while a bunch of college frat boys can do a better job in their mom's basement just by using a few pictures of the crash site, and they can decide and uncover immediately without being at the crash site, or interviewing those that were there, any foul play. Think of how much money we can save Tezz! Who needs educated professional people? All we need is a couple of boys with computers and they can solve all mysterious plane crashes without even setting foot at the crash site or seeing any other evidence or parts or anything. all they need is a picture or two and a computer and they can figure out what exactly happened. Wow!

So far, just about every government agency that had their hand in investigating 911 LIED!
What I find so amusing, is there are so many people who choose to drink the government tainted cool aid. Talk about government loyalist wow! The government said 911 story is true so I have to believe them, they wouldn’t lie to me. NIST report is true because, all educated Scientists are honest and cannot be bribed. FAA has never lied to anyone or covered up anything so I believe in anything they say. NORAD they are part of our military and I know they always tell the truth because, when they said they dispatched our military jets in the wrong direction on 911 and allowed the supposently hijacked airplanes flying around for an hour without being intercepted. I just figured this was normal procedure that our military always screws up when it come to our air defense.

reply to post by weedwhacker


Yes, you are correct, a heatseeker would go straight for the engines, the hottest part of the plane. A Sidewinder would be the most likely missile used for this. It happened when the Russians shot down a Korean Airlines jet years ago. of course, taking out the engines won't destroy the plane necessarily, as a plane can be glide flown to the grown, as we saw in New York a couple months prior. I will not begin to speculate what sort of ordinance was most likely used. Some reports claim it was most likely an Air National Guard plane from North Dakota that shot it down. Air National Guard tends to have alot of older equipment, if this is true. Maybe a cannon?

As for the black box/FDR, they end at 10:03 A.M, and this is the offical crash time given. Yet there are disputes for this Crash time. Cleveland radar lost flight 93 at 10:06 A.M., and a seismic station recorded what was believed to be the plane's impact at 10:06 A.M. We also have some of the ground witness statements that put the plane still in the sky at around 10:05. If thios is the case, we have 3 minutes of FDR time unaccounted for. They say the FDR rewinds itself every 30 minutes and records over previous recordings. regardless, if that were the case, we would have the last couple of minutes recorded.

I haven't found any satisfactory explanations for the three minute discrepancy, and I have reason not to trust the FBI to run a truthful, factual investigation. it would not be the first time they and the NTSB have been accused of evidence tampering/mishandling investigations (TWA Flight 800, prime example).

Here are a couple links from various sources pointing to a later crash time than what is officially accepted:

SF Chronicle

Conflicting Accounts of Second and Third Planes in Area

Disruption of Electrical Services?

I am left with more questions than answers.

reply to post by GenRadek


Maybe you can convince one of these accident investigators?

40 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11

www.examiner.com... count-of-911

Originally posted by GenRadek
So I suppose the fact that a plane drove itself into the ground,

What plane? I can't see a plane? Prove it!

and that some debris (like an engine) had to be dug up does not compute for you that the force of impact was that great enough to do so was also enough to turn the plane into itty bitty pieces?

That's it - one engine? Did they identify the alleged engine? Did they state which plane it came from? Why didn't they find anything else other than an engine?

Show me some force calculations for what you think happened to the plane. Equations please, with all of your contraints, estimated variables, nothing less than a full proof to show how the official story must be true. If that's what you believe, then it should be a snap for you, right?

How does an engine get buried 20 odd feet down, without other parts being found above, below and next to the engine?

Feel free to respond when you can prove that the alleged Flight 93 was allegedly dug out of the 'crater'.

Originally posted by turbofan


Maybe you can convince one of these accident investigators?

40 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11

You mean those people who have gone on record to question why the Pentagon's missile batteries didn't open up or the aircraft/missiles were not shot down by man-portable SAMs or whatever other "self-defense" weapons were not deployed?

*Those* people?

You want us to look at them as credible sources?

Originally posted by trebor451

Originally posted by turbofan


Maybe you can convince one of these accident investigators?

40 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11

You mean those people who have gone on record to question why the Pentagon's missile batteries didn't open up or the aircraft/missiles were not shot down by man-portable SAMs or whatever other "self-defense" weapons were not deployed?

*Those* people?

You want us to look at them as credible sources?

Or maybe this person, one of the earliest first responders on the scene as a Pentagon First Responder and seen in this picture.

LOOK: There is no debris with United Airlines colors in this infamous dumpster photo!



There should be quite a bit of United debris lying around and collected in that dumbster. Didn't they say most of the plane was found?!!!!!

Coincidentally the closest business to the crash site is a SCRAP YARD!

Originally posted by SPreston
reply to post by turbofan

 

Allegedly a 90 ton Boeing 757 was buried here

Guess what, no United debris seen!

Was there any United debris found?

Originally posted by ATH911

Originally posted by SPreston
reply to post by turbofan

 

Allegedly a 90 ton Boeing 757 was buried here

Guess what, no United debris seen!

Was there any United debris found?

Exactly! They pulled more debris off the ocean after TWA 800 was shot down...err exploded in the sky off the Eastern coast! Pics of TWA 800 debris recovered

reply to post by tezzajw




ah so you want to see an entire airplane intact to prove it? Sure, lets all find the plane whole after it plowed into the ground at high speed. So I suppose a good majority of these plane crashes didnt happen either because the debris is too tiny then right?

911research.wtc7.net...

Or hey, remember that F-4 Phantom test crash? Refresh my memory tezz, what was left of that plane after the impact with the wall? Itty bitty pieces? and before you say anything, yes I am aware of the differences of the F-4 test and this, however tezz, by your logic, there has to be large chunks of a plane leftover to prove it was the plane that actually crashed.

Originally posted by GenRadek
ah so you want to see an entire airplane intact to prove it?

Not at all, GenRadek! I imagine that the alleged plane would break apart upon alleged impact.

I want to see any part of the alleged wreckage confirmed to have been dug out of the ground and then confirmed to belong to the alleged Flight 93.

It's not too much to ask for, but it's still not been proven after nearly eight years.

What else did they dig out of that hole, GenRadek after the plane allegedly buried itself in the crater?

posted by ATH911

posted by SPreston
reply to post by turbofan

 

Allegedly a 90 ton Boeing 757 was buried here

Guess what, no United debris seen!

Was there any United debris found?

Furthermore and even more revealing; in this backhoe dugout hole where they 'claimed' they found a United turbofan rotor just inches below the surface, not only are there no United color aircraft debris; but there is no aircraft debris of any nature in the visible area of the soil, nor are there any footprints of the investigators. Even the backhoe left no noticeable imprints.

It looks like the town dump with engine rotor added.

Bring the rotor over in the backhoe.

Drop it in place.

Nudge it over into the bank a bit.

Presto.

Instant proof of a Flight 93 dive into the ground which should fool 90% of US 'boob tubers'.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/789ad1c93c85.jpg[/atsimg]

High Resolution Government Exhibit

Planes magicly sinking into ground and stuff, ok.

www.youtube.com...
now that video atleast show how the fire should have been, and lets not talk about the smoke.

Just think, that tiny little plane had about 1/4 the amount of fuel.

I see Reheat is back after a long vacation. Are you able to answer
the original question now?

Whut? NO "Mr. Reheat" yet? [He has been notified on at least 2 other threads so far that I'm aware of....]

Humm....

reply to post by rhunter


Perhaps Mr Reheat does not know how to navigate to the opening post. Let me help.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/789ad1c93c85.jpg[/atsimg]

Larger photo of engine rotor allegedly found buried in a strip mine at Shanksville sitting next to backhoe bucket it likely arrived in and with no marks of backhoe or footprints or aircraft debris from the alleged 90 ton aircraft which allegedly dove into and buried itself in the soft dirt

OP
Mr. Reheat, do you believe that a 757/767 bore itself 165 feet into the ground
as per photo linked in the other thread?

Do you also believe that digging 4 feet below the surface would reveal only
part of an engine, and not a tail section, fuselage, seats, wings, etc.?

Thank you again for your expert analysis!

You want me to participate in what is obviously a personal "call out" thread. Here's my participation:

I WILL NOT respond to personal incredulity issues due to either the poster's lack of knowledge or ignorance.

Some Flight 93 Evidence Updated 5/27/09
911links.webs.com...

[1] DNA for all passangers crew found and identified
[2] The hole
[3] 95% of the airplane recovered in the hole
[4] Black boxes recovered and analyzed
[5] Video of Phanton hitting wall
[6] Lots of Flight 93 links
[7] 1960 Air-to-air collision NYC
[8] Analysis of Flt 93 Balck Boxes
[9] 1,200 investigators and first responders,.
[10] Remains of aircraft in storage.
[11] Papers & light objects found up to 8 miles from the crash
[12] Pictures
[13] Largest peice of Flt 93 was half a ton
[14] Coroner Statement
[15] Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93
[16] THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 COmplete timing and FAA info
[17] VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash
[18] Phone calls from Flight 93
[19] Flight 93 Radar track
[20] Crash debris found 8 miles away
[21] Olsen Phone calls discussed
[1] --------------------------------------------------------------
DNA www.post-gazette.com... preview.tinyurl.com... Links to forensics and hijacker identification wtc7lies.googlepages.com... The hijacker's license bp0.blogger.com...

[2] --------------------------------------------------------------
The Hole: The aircraft impacted at approximately 563 mph (906 km/h), at a 40 degree angle.[26] The impact left a crater about 115 feet (35 m) wide and 10 to 12 feet (about 3.5 m) deep. There were no survivors among the 44 passengers, crew and terrorists (all were killed by the impact or had been previously killed during flight). en.wikipedia.org... preview.tinyurl.com...
[3] --------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the in the news on 9/24/2001, CNN reports 95% or the aircraft was recovered form that hole including both black boxes. archives.cnn.com... CNN.com FBI finished with Pennsylvania crash site probe SHANKSVILLE, Pennsylvania (CNN) --The FBI announced Monday that its investigation of the site where a hijacked jet slammed into a field here is complete and that 95 percent of the plane was recovered. The federal investigation into the September 11 terrorist attacks continues. Evidence-gathering was halted Saturday afternoon and the pieces of United Airlines Flight 93 that had been recovered were turned over Sunday to the airline, with the exception of the flight data recorder and the voice recorder, which are being held and analyzed by the FBI, according to FBI agent Bill Crowley. Crowley said the biggest piece of the plane that was recovered was a 6-by-7-foot piece of the fuselage skin, including about four windows. The heaviest piece, Crowley said, was part of an engine fan, weighing about 1,000 pounds. Flight 93 was one of four jets hijacked Sept. 11. Authorities believe the flight, which originated in Newark, New Jersey, and had been destined for San Francisco, was headed for the nation's capital, where the hijackers may have intended to slam it into the White House or the Capitol. Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller have praised the passengers of that flight, saying it appears their actions in trying to regain control of the aircraft averted a greater tragedy. People who spoke by phone with passengers after the plane was hijacked say that after the passengers found out about the earlier World Trade Center attack, they decided to try to overpower the hijackers. And officials familiar with the flight's cockpit voice recorder say it shows there was a "definite struggle," which they described as desperate and wild, between hijackers and some of the passengers. All 44 people on board the flight were killed when it slammed into the ground.
[4] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed www.ntsb.gov... Black boxes recovered and analyzed www.ntsb.gov... Of the airliner parts, the pieces that investigators judged most significant were the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, both unearthed within 3 1/2 days of the crash. The voice recording that remained is being analyzed for clues to confirm the identities of the four hijackers who seized the Newark-to-San Francisco flight before it crashed. www.post-gazette.com...
[5] --------------------------------------------------------------
Video of Phanton hitting wall www.youtube.com...
[6] --------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of Flight 93 links
wtc7lies.googlepages.com...
[7] --------------------------------------------------------------
Example Air-to-air collision
en.wikipedia.org...
[8] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed www.ntsb.gov... Discussed : forums.randi.org...
[9] --------------------------------------------------------------
1,200 investigators and first responders,. wtc7lies.googlepages.com...
[10] --------------------------------------------------------------
Remains of aircraft in storage. Since it had no more use for it, the FBI turned the airliner debris -- but not the data and voice recorders -- over to United Airlines yesterday. Asked what United will do with the debris, airline spokeswoman Whitney Staley said, "I don't think a decision has been made ... but we're not commenting." www.post-gazette.com... "With the recovery Friday night of the cockpit voice recorder from United Flight 93, workers at the crash site have shifted their focus to a long, arduous search for what remains of the jet and its victims. www.post-gazette.com...



[edit on 28-5-2009 by Reheat]

[edit on 28-5-2009 by Reheat]