Reheat - Hole in the Ground

Also plenty plenty other juicy bits of evidence of just how powerful a violent nose down crash really is:

Other plane crashes with shreds of aluminum left over

By the way, an MD-11 is quite a large aircraft. See how much debris they recovered and how big it is after the Swiss Air Flight 111 crash....

Oh and for an even better example of how Fligth 93 was NOT a shoot down, take the PanAm Flt 103 bombing. The aircraft blew up at 30,000ft up and broke up in mid air. Look at its debris, as well as other large impacts:

thewebfairy.com...

Check out the other crash sites.

reply to post by GenRadek


GenRadek, you sure like to dance around with your BS without answering
questions or supporting your point with YOutube videos.

One last time: what was the direction of wind that day?

P.S. The shanksville photo shows a cloud of smoke. Not a fireball

I wish you could tell the difference...

reply to post by turbofan


Wind was blowing southeast. What is southeast of the crash site? Indian Lake and New Baltimore. Now what did they find there? GASP! Light debris!

What does a fireball leave behind? I'll give you a hint, its big, its black, and its made up of carbon, soot, and light debris.

Give up? Smoke! What you see is the remains of the initial fireball which has turned into a large black smoke cloud. Its taken just after the fireball has burned out, but the heat is still allowing it to rise, before the wind can carry it away. Do you understand that part? I'll repeat it a few more times so you can understand it. The picture is taken of the fireball from the crash, as its is already a mushroom cloud. The mushroom cloud still has a strong vertical direction and it is NOT blown away by the winds at that moment. I mean turbo do i have to bring out sock puppets to explain it to you? Cause obviously somewhere there is a disconnect between what you read and what you comprehend.



By the way I posted the pictures and video so you can see how a fireball works and what comes after the fireball. A mushroom cloud. But since you OBVIOUSLY do NOT know how either a fireball works, or a mushroom cloud, I wonder whats the point. If the simplest explanation manages to go over your head, how can you be expected to understand more complex issues?

[edit on 6/17/2009 by GenRadek]

Hmm lets see this first again, for reference:



That is the mushroom cloud after the explosion and fireball. Let us compare it to pictures of mushroom clouds taken just after an explosion and or fireball!


notice the ball of smoke at the top?




There is no fire below, but look at the smoke. Its in the shape of the mushroom cloud. The mushroom cloud occurrs during the fireball stage.

Flight 93's mushroom cloud is a result of the fireball. NOT a result of just jet fuel burning on the ground. I thought at least THAT was obvious.


[edit on 6/17/2009 by GenRadek]

Naaa, try again.

This debris made it through all of the trees, across bodies of water, through
magical hoops of fire and all?!?!

maps.google.ca...

You sure know your smoke 'fyziks' too. Just after the fireball went out,
someone was lucky enough to catch a shot of the smoke. So, UA93
had one quart of fuel in the tanks, or what? That's a pretty tiny smoke
cloud for a full tank of fuel!

It's also pretty lightly coloured smoke, and even resembles the blast
cloud you linked in your earlier post.

Please look up airplane fuel fires and notice the colour of the smoke,
the amount of smoke, the duration of smoke, etc.

Originally posted by turbofan

Please look up airplane fuel fires and notice the colour of the smoke,
the amount of smoke, the duration of smoke, etc.

Turbo, can you please show the fuel fires from flight 1771. Remember that high speed nose down crash?

Thank you.

reply to post by turbofan




not enough smoke? Did you check how long Flight 93 was in the air? Oh yes another thing, how far away was the picture taken? (Question, what does New Baltimore, Michigan have to do with Flight 93 or the picture of the smoke from the fireball?) Also how much fuel went up in the initial fireball, and how much burned up in the impact crater? And the smoke is too lightly colored? Ahh so your little "observation" completely refutes the fireball from crash idea? I see. I guess you cannot even begin to take into account the amount of light taken in by the camera, location of the sun and what time it was taken, what type of camera, lens, color, etc etc etc which could account for the "light" colored smoke you claim it is. Ok then.

Apparently turbo, you are having difficulty in understanding what you are seeing and reading.

The smoke pictured is of the mushroom cloud that formed as a direct result of the impact and fireball. The fireball and mushroom cloud rose up high above the ground, carrying with it the light debris. The light debris then was picked up by the winds blowing southeast. Light debris was then blown and it rained down onto the two areas. And yes turbo, light debris can go over trees and over a lake when the wind is carrying it 10-400ft high. I mean I think a 5th grader would already understand the basics here. And for the millionth time, the smoke is not from an open area of jet fuel just lit and burning like a bonfire, or a training fire. This smoke is from the fireball which was created by the IMPACT and EXPLOSION of the aircraft after it slammed into the ground. I showed you TWO, TWO videos of TWO different airplane crashes which BOTH show a large fireball and mushroom cloud which come from the fuel tanks exploding and creating the fireball and mushroom cloud of black smoke. Also if you have ever watched the Pepcon explosion video, you will see the regular smoke from the burning fuel drifting in the direction of the wind, while the fireballs and mushroom clouds from the explosion go straight up.



Pay close attention right before the second BIG explosion happens. Watch how the smoke from the burning fires is being blown by the surface winds in one direction, then pay attention to which way the fireball and mushroom cloud go after the detonation. It goes UP. And it goes UP for quite a while before it also gets blown by the winds.

Now I have shown you already numerous examples of how fireballs and mushroom clouds work, posted links, pictures, explained ad nauseum how a fuel fed fireball from a crashing plane creates a mushroom cloud, how it looks, how LIGHT debris can be swept up into the mushroom cloud and then carried by winds aloft to points downwind several miles, what objects are considered to be LIGHT debris in a plane crash, everything. And what do you do? Enough of your trolling turbo. Either type something competently without trolling, without personal incredulity, with facts, or something intelligent. If you do not understand something then by God just admit it. I will not think less of you if you admit you have no clue or little idea of what is being said, and I'd more than willing to explain something to you intelligently, rather than feeling like I am talking to a solid brick wall, or a stubborn mule.

[edit on 6/17/2009 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by turbofan

So you're thinking the tail section parts burned up on impact, exploded up
into the cloud of smoke and got blown away with the cloud?

Excuse me while I clarify my last two responese to our resident,
"smoke dynamics" expert:

Are you really trying to pass on a theory that aircraft debris was carried
away within a SMOKE CLOUD?

You want us to believe that aircraft debris, being more dense than smoke
and air withholds some super aerodynamic properties that it would allow
a "24 knot" wind to carry it for 8 miles?

I'm not questioning the fact that heat rises "GenRadek", I'm questioning
how long you believe these masses of debris can suspended themselves
in air while the fireball flames out and the smoke rises upward...

How long do you figure gravity will allow the debris to stay suspended
before the "wind" blows it laterally?

For the others: Please revisit the 1771 crash site. Notice the PARTS scattered
around. It LOOKS like something CRASHED there.

If I'm not mistaken, the video says the plane nosed over 10 degrees from
vertical impacting at 720 MPH.

Originally posted by turbofan
Are you really trying to pass on a theory that aircraft debris was carried
away within a SMOKE CLOUD?

You want us to believe that aircraft debris, being more dense than smoke
and air withholds some super aerodynamic properties that it would allow
a "24 knot" wind to carry it for 8 miles?

How high was the smoke cloud? Please do a little research and determine the wind speeds at that height.

TF, you also have failed to recognize that the debris that was found 8 miles away was the same type of debris that was found 8 miles away in the flight 1771 crash: Light weight debris. Paper, nylon, etc.

For the others: Please revisit the 1771 crash site. Notice the PARTS scattered
around. It LOOKS like something CRASHED there.

Key word.... "something." You can not determine it is a commercial plane due to the small debris. The first responders thought it was a small plane carrying mail. Where are the engines? Where is the stabilizer?

Originally posted by CameronFox
How high was the smoke cloud? Please do a little research and determine the wind speeds at that height.

What's with the circular questions? We've already been through this.

Who cares what the wind speeds were at 1000 feet, or 500 feet,
or whatever height the smoke cloud rose.

What is the damn point? The debris is going to come down at a quick
rate due to gravity. It is not going to fly through the air supported by
smoke...or whatever you're trying to pass off.

There is no way in hell any of that debris flew a mile let alone 8 miles.
YOu might get some paper floating around, suspended for a certain
distance, but eventually it will hit the ground.

What are you going to tell me about the larger pieces; they flew suspended
for extreme distances?

Still waiting to see the balance of 90 tons...

TF, you also have failed to recognize that the debris that was found 8 miles away was the same type of debris that was found 8 miles away in the flight 1771 crash: Light weight debris. Paper, nylon, etc.

Again, so what? Where are the larger pieces like seen at the 1771 crash
site?

What's your point and where is your evidence to suggest where the
large debris might be? UNder the crater?

Key word.... "something." You can not determine it is a commercial plane due to the small debris. The first responders thought it was a small plane carrying mail. Where are the engines? Where is the stabilizer?

Keyword is SOMETHING. You can tell something crashed at 1771.

You can tell NOTHING crashed at UA93.

1771 was identified; UA93 was not.

Please don't try to pass on your weak theories of 'plane ID' from bits
of scrap at 1771 with NOTHING showing up at the Shanksville crater.

Where's Reheat again? Hiding from the questions I suppose?



[edit on 18-6-2009 by turbofan]

Originally posted by turbofan
What's with the circular questions? We've already been through this.

I may have missed your answer. The winds speeds are typically higher several hundreds of feet higher... no?

What is the damn point? The debris is going to come down at a quick
rate due to gravity. It is not going to fly through the air supported by
smoke...or whatever you're trying to pass off.

There is no way in hell any of that debris flew a mile let alone 8 miles.
YOu might get some paper floating around, suspended for a certain
distance, but eventually it will hit the ground.

You are dead wrong. That's the point. Go stand at the top of a large building and drop some papers, pieces of nylon, etc. Tell me how "quick they fall due to gravity"

Make sure you do it with an 11 mph wind.

What are you going to tell me about the larger pieces; they flew suspended
for extreme distances?

Strawman... do you have any proof whatsoever that large pieces were found outside the impact zone?

Still waiting to see the balance of 90 tons...

How are you making out on the FOIA? What did UA's attorneys say to you? I forwarded you all that information. What have you done with it?

Again, so what? Where are the larger pieces like seen at the 1771 crash
site?

That is my point. You have no problem conceding the fact that a commercial plane(1771) crashed at a high speed, nose down, etc etc.... and left minimal large debris and LIGHT weight debris was found 8 miles away. Yet, you have to hold on to a fantasy that either flight 93 was shot down .... or never crashed there.

What's your point and where is your evidence to suggest where the
large debris might be? UNder the crater?

Again, you have been given some contact information. What have YOU done with it?

Keyword is SOMETHING. You can tell something crashed at 1771.

You can tell NOTHING crashed at UA93.

Well, that shows your ignorance to the debris that was collected and photographed.

1771 was identified; UA93 was not.

Was it? By the FDR and CVR, yes. As was Flight 93. Were parts of flight 1771 identified via serial numbers? I don't know.

Please don't try to pass on your weak theories of 'plane ID' from bits
of scrap at 1771 with NOTHING showing up at the Shanksville crater.

nothing... Pure ignorance.

Where's Reheat again? Hiding from the questions I suppose?

He is probably out living his life. You see, 911 truth disappears when we click off a truther website.

Originally posted by CameronFox

I may have missed your answer. The winds speeds are typically higher several hundreds of feet higher... no?

Big deal? You want to tell me how the large debris factors into your
higher altitude wind? You know, the other 90 tons unaccounted for?

You are dead wrong. That's the point. Go stand at the top of a large building and drop some papers, pieces of nylon, etc. Tell me how "quick they fall due to gravity"

^ *news flash *^ It wont be 1 mile...

Besider that, we're looking for fuselage parts, wing sections, seats, etc.
I'll drop pieces of that off a building and bet my life it's not going a mile.
I'll do it with a 12 MPH wind...

Strawman... do you have any proof whatsoever that large pieces were found outside the impact zone?

LMAO! I don't even need to highlight the irony here.

How are you making out on the FOIA? What did UA's attorneys say to you? I forwarded you all that information. What have you done with it?

Still waiting for that contact info from 2 months ago...

That is my point. You have no problem conceding the fact that a commercial plane(1771) crashed at a high speed, nose down, etc etc.... and left minimal large debris and LIGHT weight debris was found 8 miles away. Yet, you have to hold on to a fantasy that either flight 93 was shot down .... or never crashed there.

The photo evidence of the crater and immediate reporters on site
tell the story (aside from all the other mounting evidence of 9/11 being
an inside job).

Again, you have been given some contact information. What have YOU done with it?

Nope. Never received it. Send it again.

Well, that shows your ignorance to the debris that was collected and photographed.

Oh yes, the red bandana! HOw could I forget! Too bad the wind didn't
take that too huh?

He is probably out living his life. You see, 911 truth disappears when we click off a truther website.

On some newspapers, TV media (see Harrit/Gage), radio...it's only going
to grow from here.

reply to post by turbofan


Turbo, are you trolling, or are you seriosuly not understanding a single thing we say? Or are you just doing this on purpose?

For the 1 billionth time, the "secondary" debris field consisted of LIGHT debris. I have already posted what LIGHT debris was found. I have posted what the people found at this location, and it wasnt engine parts, sections of wing, tail, or fuselage. It was PAPER, NYLON, MAGAZINES, CLOTH, HUMAN REMAINS, INSULATION, MAIL, things that can and ARE carried by winds. I think Cameron and I are going to have to bring out the sock puppets and use them to explain cause I honestly dont know how much simpler we can make it for you without devolving into pre-school explanations.


[edit on 6/18/2009 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by turbofan

Big deal? You want to tell me how the large debris factors into your
higher altitude wind? You know, the other 90 tons unaccounted for?

They don't.
You are the one saying the paper, nylon, mail, etc shouldn't travel "1 mile" in an 11+ MPH wind. You want to talk about the remains of Flight 93, check your U2U. I sent you the information.. AGAIN.. and sent you the original one I sent you 2-3 weeks ago.

^ *news flash *^ It wont be 1 mile...

BREAKING NEWS!! ... it wont fall straight down.

Besider that, we're looking for fuselage parts, wing sections, seats, etc.
I'll drop pieces of that off a building and bet my life it's not going a mile.
I'll do it with a 12 MPH wind...

Strawman, no one said it would. General is right about you.

LMAO! I don't even need to highlight the irony here.

Irony? You are the one that claims that the debris did NOT travel 8 miles.

Still waiting for that contact info from 2 months ago...

You've had it for several weeks. Time to buck up and do something with it.

by cameronfox
That is my point. You have no problem conceding the fact that a commercial plane(1771) crashed at a high speed, nose down, etc etc.... and left minimal large debris and LIGHT weight debris was found 8 miles away. Yet, you have to hold on to a fantasy that either flight 93 was shot down .... or never crashed there.

Originally posted by turbofan
The photo evidence of the crater and immediate reporters on site
tell the story (aside from all the other mounting evidence of 9/11 being
an inside job).

Um, evasion noted.
Why wont you comment on the debris that was found 8 miles away from the flight 1771 crash?
Can you please list the reporters that were on the scene in Shanksville that believe 911 was an inside job?

Can you please list the eyewitnesses that were on the scene that do not think flight 93 3crashed there.

Can you THEN, list the similarities between the first responder reports from Flight 93 and Flight 1771?

THEN... tell me that flight 1771 was an inside job too!

Oh yes, the red bandana! HOw could I forget! Too bad the wind didn't
take that too huh?

Yet you will fail to recognize the airsickness bag that was found from Flight 1771 that had a "suicide note" on it. (Bandanna has 2 "N"'s)

On some newspapers, TV media (see Harrit/Gage), radio...it's only going
to grow from here.

Uh huh... 7 1/2 years later... you guys are ALL over it. Captain Bob got a new office in his mom's garage thanks to those that give him money and buy his clocks. Gage goes on world wide vacations... on the truthers dime!
Yeah, Tino, it's growing all right.

[edit on 18-6-2009 by CameronFox]

Once again GenRadek, I'm not talking about paper; I want to see 90 tons
of aircraft parts in the immediate area of the crash site. There is nothing.

Don't blame 24 knot winds for the absence of debris in; around; and
beneath the crater.

You should also start looking at the independent evidence/interviews
which tell a story much different than the one you are lead to believe.

reply to post by turbofan


Turbo, who said 90 tons of the aircraft was blown away by the wind? Stop putting words into people mouths that didnt say anything like that. That was addressing the secondary debris site that all of you were claiming was proof of a "shootdown".

Now if you had been paying attention, which i can tell you havent, you would have seen that a nose down high speed impact does not, I repeat, does NOT leave large pieces of the aircraft. It just leaves behind shards of aircraft everywhere. And guess what, they did find a lot of the debris. Most of it in small pieces which is consistent with a high speed nosedive impact. We have already shown you multiple instances of plane crashes very similar in nature to Flight 93's crash, where there was practically nothing left of the aircraft, except for bits and pieces strewn about.

Gen,

Compare flight 1771's immediate crash debris field to UA93's debris field.

Note the differences.

Come back when you can explain the lack of debris around the crater.

reply to post by turbofan


But there was debris in and around the crater. Did you not see it? Or did you just ignore it, as usual?

reply to post by GenRadek


I only ignore what I don't see...but if I had imaginary x-ray vision,
well then I guess we wouldn't be here.





(if you look closely, you can see a pink elephant in the last image!)

I do not see any pink elephants,But looking strait above the the news 5 logo I see a white plume of vapor coming out of the crator.This is not smoke, Its hot oil vapor boiling out of a very HOT engine core! Watch the way hugs the ground. This is a very thick heavy vapor. IT'S NOT SMOKE. IT'S OIL! IT'S NOT BURNING! IT'S BOILING! Look at the picture of the engine with the backhoe bucket, See the plastic bag, thats were this vapor is coming from. The plastic bag? It's not to keep dirt out, it's to keep the smell in. Oil that has passed its boiling point has a very strong odor, it gets in your sinuses and sticks with you for days. There's a photo of one of the engine cores at the pentagon with a plastic bag on it too. The engine core at the WTC that landed at Church and Murray st. lost most of its oil spiraling through the air, but you can still see traces of vapor coming out of the center shaft in some photos, before it cooled down.

If you want to know the wind direction at the shanksville crash site on 9-11, just go to an arial photo of the crash site ,the oil vapor left a stain on the ground. This will give you an exact wind direction on that day. And Yes! it points strait to Indian Lake.