OT God not the same as NT God.....

reply to post by jmdewey60


That wasn't to bad a response! I think I get where you are coming from. You are saying that the Holy Ghost has has the key to a lock and that by using the key you will have your proof.

I hope you are right.

So you are betting everything on God doing the heavy lifting, and having a prearranged proof waiting for you. That would make it easy.

I have never heard this line of reasoning before, thanks for sharing!
Ok we have another category now, acceptable provided proofs of Deity.

I would like to know more about this! It's new to me, any references would be considered a generous gift indeed. You can't look it up if you don't know what to call it. Search words would suffice, if you have no specific links.

I'm not a troll waiting to catch you out so I can play gotcha. It would kill a subject which I am working way to hard to develop.

So please feel free to speak your mind. I don't have the answers, so you can't get em wrong. Well, OK you could get em wrong. And that would be very bad. But I am not the judge of that.

So you have no backup plan?
If it's God, he must unlock the holy spirit in you, and that is your proof. Otherwise you say:
"Go away false god, you are not my God!"

I would want an extremely precise description of a prearranged signal before hand. If I were prearranging an emergency signal for my children.
Not simply, get in the car if they make you feel good, and safe.
You will know when I truly have sent someone.
That would be a recipe for a disaster!

What if your God has not provided proof!
What if Bobo the wonder god has a way of making you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, like a narcotic effect?

This seems like a flimsy and ill defined plan. It is better than I have. And it only needs to be correct to work.

However, I still find it lacking in preperation when you consider it is the most important moment ever. Faith is a great thing, but it has sunk an awful lot of people who put it in the wrong place.

I am not trying to disparage faith, but I am trying to probe the question of God Identification, and the problem of false gods.

[edit on 3-6-2009 by Cyberbian]

reply to post by jmdewey60


As I said, membership, the kingdom and bloodlines are of least importance for anyone who wants to learn about the truth and worship God by the way of the spirit. And by truth I mean the truth about the concept of God and his kingdom. It is that subtle difference that led to the drastic difference. To understand what I am talking about here you need to be broad minded and read the Holy scriptures of various religions, you will find that they all talk about a monotheistic God without form or shape, without beginning or end and one who lives forever and the best way to worship him is by the way of the spirit. It says that God is absolute truth and the world is an illusion. The core essence of everything is light which holds us togeather. The most earliest form of christianity which was being practised when Jesus was alive is called Gnostic christianity and many of them were ruthlessly killed by Romans as well as ancient Jews because they did not approve of their beliefs. As per my understanding the continuation of Judaism is Islam and not christianity which is evident from the Koran where Mohammed says that he is coming after Moses and does not recognise Jesus as anything. The OT is filled with a lot of nonsense such as in the beginning we see a higher God and a lower God. There are a lot of differences in certain older release of the bible with certain newer editions and most of the newer editions have a lot of stuff omited from the OT so that they can be hidden, take for instance the concept of Enki or Eli or Annunaki or Ellohiem, what the hell is that all about. Take for instance the story of Cain and Abel, one prepares an offering of harvest and the other offers a lamb. In many older versions of the Bible we see God preffered the harvest over the lamb and in certain versions we see the lamb is preffered over the harvest and in certain ones we find a higher God who preffered the harvest and a lower God who preffered the Lamb but most of the newer versions of the Bible shows a God who preffered the Lamb. We have the story of the concubine where Israel is at war at each other and this is because there was no kings and they people pretty much did whatever they wanted and worshiped God however they wanted, even using Idols and Images. Read about the story of the Tower of Babel...it talks about people building a great tower and when the Gods come to know about this they realise that they all speak one language and are one and the Gods come down to confuse them and distort them. Being united and speaking one language is clearly better than speaking multiple languages and being divided. Clearly those Gods or beings or whoever they are did not want us peace and I am not sure which God would want us killing each other. The original full version of the Bible is hidden away in Vatican city, rome because many are afraid about the truth, the truth is harsh, difficult to comprehend...If you have answers about the above in the OT then please let me know. As far as the teachings of moses goes, they are simple and shallow fit for any lame person. The teachings of Jesus far outshines the abrahamic teachings which is far fetched from the truth. Jesus says that a person can not be a slave of 2 masters, he will love one and hate the other, you cannot be a christian and love judaism at the same time...so decide where you belong. I am thinking maybe we ought to make the present Bible into 2 books (i.e) the OT and NT needs to be separated cause they dont belong to geather.

reply to post by CuteAngel


CuteAngel, Christianity is based upon Judaeism, Judaic teachings are often deliberately contradictory.

For instance there is a teaching about where you go when you die.
Judaism does not believe in heaven and hell, however there is seperation from God.

In one teaching if you are in a particular place where you are studying to become closer to God, you study without need for eating or sleeping. In another place you must study without being able to eat or sleep. You see there is absolutely no difference between the two experiences except the personal perspective and attitude.

Without the background in Judaic teachings like reading and writing Hebrew and studying the Talmud and Torah, you can not hope to understand those teachings which are in the bible. They are only a small subset of the belief system and way of life.

I am sorry to say but I truly doubt there there is a true Christian left on the planet. If there is one, it is by one part emmense effort and one part accident.

One would need to be educated in Judaeism, have studied long lost Gnostic writings or somehow come to those beliefs independantly, and not be influenced by 2000 years of political manipulaitons and reinterpretations, the watering down with paganism and other religious belief systems.



[edit on 3-6-2009 by Cyberbian]

reply to post by Cyberbian


Did you even read my post...?What do we know about judaism other than what moses taught us (i.e) the ten commandments, deutronomy and leviticus...? Tell me where does Jesus teachings have a similarity with moses, where does he have a similarity with the kings of OT David, Solomon, elijah, Elisha...They all killed a large number of people and showed their superiority thinking that that would show the world that they were God's chosen people. Jesus christ did the exact opposite, he heals people and even brought people back to life, Lazarus...try to read my old posts...I would like someone throwing light on the topic of Anu, Enki, Enlin, Ellohiem all dealing with OT or why the original bible is hidden away in the vatican away from everyone else... Where is the concept of 'Father, Son And Holy Ghost' in OT...? As per christians the Saviour of jews is jesus, why not take to christianity then...? Or why were they responsible for killing of Jesus who was their messiah...Well they are gonna be sitting down and waiting for the saviour when their saviour has already come and gone...I guess they are waiting for a character like David or Solomon to come who will create so much fear in the surrounding nations that they will have to accept their superiority....Did Jesus ever talk about burnt and fellowship sacrifices, how many churches do we have that carries out burnt and fellowship sacrifices??? You say I need to know about Gnosticism and judaism before going through christianity...maybe that would throw some light as to God being 1. Read the holy scriptures of most of the wide spread religions of today, you will come to a conclusion and will enlighten you as to what the truth. Conventional learning of a religion or following certain rituals is far from experiencing the Holy scripture...
I believe you questioned as to how we identify if the son of man is a saviour or a false prophet....You need to know a certain things, Pleasure is different from good and both are different from evil. Its like this pleasure is comfortable for the present and immediate future but evil in the long run, Good is always good and evil remains evil. An example of good - You worship God as it is your duty, you confess your sins, you beg his forgiveness and then identify yourself as a part of him (i.e) finally you would reach the status where you would become the son of God thus professing the power of God himself. It would take un imaginable efforts to reach such perfection. This is very rare, only jesus got to that point. Thats why we get saviours very rarely during the course of life on earth.
An example of pleasure - You worship God but only so that God would enable the fullfillment of your wishes such as wealth, sex, enjoyment. This is immediate fun or immediate pleasure but in the long run it deviates you from the truth and blinds you and immerses you in greater sin and would finally cause you to fall down to hell and then you'd have to start from the beginning. This is most common in the world of men.

reply to post by CuteAngel

There are a lot of differences in certain older release of the bible with certain newer editions and most of the newer editions have a lot of stuff omited from the OT so that they can be hidden, take for instance the concept of Enki or Eli or Annunaki or Ellohiem, what the hell is that all about.

Words are funny. You can spend a lifetime just figuring out words. Like Academic. Most people do not stop to think what that means. The language of the ancient world for legalese, like how Latin is today, was from Akkad. Yesterday I was looking at what is a prefix, lets say hieroglyphics, that is sacred writing. So where does Heiros come from? A targum is named that, Heiros, that's what got me questioning it. Then you bring up Enki. What? God of the Huir? The fierce Mountain dwellers sweep down into the lowland farming region to force the belief in their mountain God, and they become the legendary givers of the sacred knowledge? Forever after-wards, all things sacred bear their name?
Then I was reading how it is funny that you find texts of the Old Testament covering the patriarch times, with the YWH name for god inserted here and there, while that name belongs only in the stories of Moses and later.
So you have all these names contesting for supremacy. The Rabbi that I knew would say when you see in the Ten Commandments, thou shalt have no other gods above me, think of a totem pole. All the people's gods stacked up, one on top of another. A jealous God demands He be only in the top position. The emissary from the Assyrian king came to Jerusalem and said, your "most high God will not save you, you destroyed his places of worship." He was confusing the God of the high places with the most high God. The good king had made YWH, the god of the Temple, the Most High God by wrecking the most high places.
I suppose if one was to sit around and invent gods for yourself, you would come up with something similar to the Greek Pantheon. People who have a high regard for a sense of knowing through spiritual experience, would latch onto a Jesus, who had the highest kind of direct revelation of God that he claimed him as his father. So you have Gnostics claiming him as their own. Abraham was probably thinking he was doing good if he could get people to see God as something better than so many demons amoungst the rocks.
If you want to say there is a central theme in the old Testament, it might be of the sameness of God. I am, creator of all. I am, destroyer of the wicked. I am, leader of my people. I am, God of Justice and the Lord of oaths and promises and safeguarder of their fulfillment. God is all in all and there is no need for another because he is also your saviour. The same god who teaches you right from wrong and gives you understanding and wisdom is also the god who holds the enemy at bey. You never have to have another god. If I have to come down and lead you by the hand I will do it. If I have to shed my own blood I will do it. I know this world is not all it should be and I am sorry about that and I wanted you to live and I wanted you, now that you know me, to come along with me where there is no sadness and tears and death, just hear my voice because I am in it.
The New Testament starts out by establishing its connection with the Old by saying that the prophets spoke of these times and they were the really important ones about someone who was to restore everything good that was and bring about the unfulfilled goodness that should have been. You are shown what it is by introducing you to the people who carried it out. It is saying, That same God who told you these things is the same God who will see them through.


[edit on 3-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Cyberbian


Continued...

An example of evil-Its deception, satanic and is openly against truth.
It is better to be a believer or a non believer rather than to doubt...
How do we believe you ask... You are able to look but not see, hear but not listen, think but not understanding...The concept of Good, pleasure and Evil is for man not God...God is above all that. According to him there is not good actions or bad actions but just actions, cause, reaction and effect. Thus if there is to be a false prophet in the guise, he would have come with the approval of God and been sent by God so as to punish the people (i.e) those that deserve punishment (or) can be said to test the people but the ones who remain faithfull will live with God for ever and ever. In this case the dis believers will shun the false prophet only the doubting ones will fall for it and the few believers will be able to identify it. But in the end the truth shall always be victorious. So as you can see everything happens for a cause by God (even the ones which man considers evil) but good shall always triumph. The antichrist, beast, false prophet come with God knowing about them but to rule or survive only for a short time as God is soo mercifull that he would also give time to greatest bastards to think about themselves and maybe change themselves and try to understand the truth. Pleasure and evil are short lived but Good lives forever and ever...
For the complete believers of truth even death is no big deal, they know that they will live again and finally obtain the kingdom. Only your physical bodies can be destroyed, no one can do anything to the spirit.
If jesus was teaching judaism we would all be converted jews by now and be worshiping Jehovah, are we doing that...no! The jews are the smallest population in the world, I think 6 million. Both the jews and their surrounding nations have suffered a lot and we are sorry for them but their small population attributes to the fact that they are responsible for the death of their saviour, Jesus christ. And even now they do not accept the saviour because if they had they would've become christians. Besides look at the teachings above, they come from Jesus. As you can see truth, enlightenment and wisdom which is far from Abrahamic lessons. You say he taught the 12 tribes...I say he thought that they mite need some time to change but they did'nt which can be attributed to the fact that the pharsees were always seeking his demise.

*The above post is not intended to provoke anyone but to bring out my research work. Do apologise if it intimidated anyone.

reply to post by Cyberbian

Without the background in Judaic teachings like reading and writing Hebrew and studying the Talmud and Torah, you can not hope to understand those teachings which are in the bible.

I ran into the Doctor, the great man who was the Rabbi, at this little deli and he was standing at this table there for that purpose, eating something. I engaged him in some light conversation. He stopped and stared at me for a minute looking disgusted. I realized, after I thought about it, that he disapproved of my selection, a turkey with provolone sandwich. If you knew about Jewish customs, it was understandable. If you were just reading the Bible, you would not.
I think a lot of what you can learn about Jewish beliefs really are not too helpful, unless you are planning on living in Israel or something. There is just too much that was added after the fact. It is useful to look at some of the really old stuff, from the time of Jesus and earlier, to have a sense of what he had to deal with and to decipher the book of Revelation. But you better know Aramaic, which I do not. I have to depend on writers who did and took the trouble to pick out the really useful stuff and make it understandable to us.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I suppose if one was to sit around and invent gods for yourself, you would come up with something similar to the Greek Pantheon.

I think people who invented different Gods for different purposes are completely crazy. I am not disagreeing with you here. I also believe in a single monothiestic God for everything which is evident in my previous posts.

People who have a high regard for a sense of knowing through spiritual experience, would latch onto a Jesus, who had the highest kind of direct revelation of God that he claimed him as his father. So you have Gnostics claiming him as their own.

I am not sure what you are implying here. People dont latch on to Jesus physically, just his teachings which are absolute enlightenment.

Without the background in Judaic teachings like reading and writing Hebrew and studying the Talmud and Torah, you can not hope to understand those teachings which are in the bible. They are only a small subset of the belief system and way of life.

I agree on one thing, knowing the language is important as those ancient texts are written in hebrew and hence on reading them as they were originally written would help us understand them much better.
Language is for communication purposes. Just because Jesus taught in Hebrew and was born in Judah does not mean his wisdom and teachings and beliefs were the same as the practices of those around him.

and not be influenced by 2000 years of political manipulaitons and reinterpretations

Read through my posts, where do you find I am politically trying to manipulate anything or that my words are politically maipulative.

I am not gonna debate further on this cause clearly you dont get the point. I just need to know a few things and would appreciate if you could reply. Why did Elisha Kill 42 'Children' with a bear cub just cause they made fun that he was bald...Why did Elijah kill all the 'prophets' with fire for some competition...Why did Samuel cut Agag to pieces in the 'Lord's Altar'...Why did the levite just leave his concubine to be raped by the benjaminites and then cut her to 12 pieces to send the pieces to the 12 tribes??? Apart from this you also did not answer about my previous posts where I talk about tower of Babel and the 1 language...

I am sorry to say but I truly doubt there there is a true Christian left on the planet. If there is one, it is by one part emmense effort and one part accident.

You dont have to be sorry for others but just yourself for not understanding the point that I am trying to convey...

reply to post by CuteAngel

Though you do not want to debate the subject, I want to post a reply to at least make a point that only half of your post was to me.
The second half of your post was answering someone else and the last two quotes are not mine.

I think people who invented different Gods for different purposes are completely crazy. I am not disagreeing with you here. I also believe in a single monothiestic God for everything which is evident in my previous posts.

It may seem crazy from your perspective. I am sure it seemed quite rational to the Greeks. You can read the ancient Christian writers like Eusibius who wrote two whole books defending the basic concepts of the old mythology. If you wanted to become a Catholic priest, before you learn Christianity, you first learn what they call the "classics" which is mythology. I guess back in the day it was necessary to be familiar with it because they were surrounded by a majority that believed in it.
It is right to believe in one God, though I come off as a big promoter of the trinity. To me, it is a way to understand how a person can be a man, and at the same time God. There are not two or three gods, just one. But only one way that we could see Him in person.

I am not sure what you are implying here. People dont latch on to Jesus physically, just his teachings which are absolute enlightenment.

Hmm. Seems like it to me, but we might be using different definitions of what latching on means. What I mean is, if they want a person to be an example of what we should be, Jesus fits the bill. What I am trying to get at is that they(gnostics) had a belief first, and the man to fit it, later.


[edit on 4-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


It all depends on your perspective. Which would you give importance to or priority to...Would it be 'The Teachings' or 'The Teacher'??? If you are gonna say its the teacher then you are a long way from the truth. Why you ask...Its the Holy spirit that speaks through the teacher or you can say that it is God that speaks through the teacher or it can be said that its God or Father In Heaven that gives his son or prophet the authority to speak by the Holy spirit...So in essence the word of God or his teachings which we ought to follow and the Holy Spirit are of far greater importance than the preacher. Once you give importance to the teachings, you will be able to identify where the Holy spirit is and to whom the father has given the authority (ie) through whom the father is actually speaking and thus be able to identify the false prophet, the son of man, the antichrist from the saviour. It is only through the teachings does the teacher become known and not the other way around. Oh and one more thing! The 200 million man army of the son of man is not christ, its just an army that will destroy most of the known world of today which will be done by God permitting it. Good Day!!!

To me its quite simple. Being a Christian myself and examining every aspect of it, I've come to the conclusion that Xtianity as a whole is missing the art and medicine of Self Inquiry. Jesus speaks of this in Gospel of Thomas.

Paraphrased; Know yourself and you shall know God.

AFter years of dead ends and not getting anywhere spiritually, it was self inquiry that brought me out of the dark night and led me further into experiencing God that I ever knew possible beyond all words and concepts.

If Christianity included self inquiry meditation, and Taoism, that would make it a complete picture and lead more people to wholeness.

But then again, this bust society/world we live in, work, kids, hobbies, life, family. There's just so little time on working on your self, meditation, and inquiry. Very few make those things their priority.

Granted I was shown all these things after getting the Spirit, questioning the Bible, my teacher(s), preachers, status quo. It all really led me into a deeper relationship with God and myself instead of just blindly accepting what we're told.

reply to post by CuteAngel

My answer would be that there was an exclusive and very small group of people who were allowed to be prophets.
Once Jesus completed his work on Earth, he was able to send to us the Holy Spirit in broadcast manner.
So, the truth was hidden for ages and now is widely known because we can all be our own prophets.
It has to be because the world is ending and things have had to been sped up, just as Satan has stepped up his efforts to keep us in the dark.

[edit on 5-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

So, the truth was hidden for ages and now is widely known because we can all be our own prophets.

Can you elaborate the above so that we can understand the happenings of the revelations so that we can share the knowledge you have in the revelations...Cause your avatar says that your a revelations expert...

reply to post by CuteAngel
Let me quote something I wrote today to some sort of question like; "So, do you mean, just do whatever you feel like?"

"I suppose, yes. I am trying to think of a reason why we would need a big institution that feeds off us for its support that has a large number of paid people who's job it is to be intercessors between us and heaven, giving us salvation with one hand and punishing us with the other. God has made provision for us in understanding his word. The official so-called church, which is really a corporation, if left on its own and given a status of being unquestionable in its authority, would never bother actually teaching the masses about the fine points of theology, but treat their charges as so many slaves, living themselves in splendor and fat, with the peasants working all day toiling and living in hovels and hungry.
We can do a lot better by being allowed to own our own personal Bible where we can read it with our own understanding, and asking God for direct revelation to what it means, spiritually. "

I doubt that this answers your question but it goes along with what I was thinking when I wrote that post that must seem very cryptic.
The thing on my mini-profile has to do with a commentary on the Book of Revelation I am making. It does not automatically make me an expert on the Book of Revelation but it makes me have to study. That was what I meant, when I picked those words out. I figured it would leave me open for criticism. So far my main criticism is writing stuff that seems confusing and unclear.
The point I was trying to make in my earlier post is that as the time becomes shorter to when everything is fulfilled, the more people will become aware of it, and have a better understanding of what it is.
We do not so much have to go to some sort of prophet to receive messages from God, about everything we need to know. Let's say there is a school of the prophets. What would go on there? You might be cleaned up and given some clean appropriate clothes to wear. You would go through some sort of training to just become officially dedicated to the vocation of prophet. You would learn to read and write and you would study the works of earlier prophets and general history. At some point, the old prophets would lay hands on you and pray that the spirit in them to give them understanding would pass into this new person who is about to be let out into the world.
If you think about it, if this is what it is to be a prophet, all Christians should be qualified. Jesus has provided for us what is now considered ordinary, but would have in old times been considered extraordinary.
As for my personal approach, my philosophy is that if you want the right answer, you have to ask the right question. That most likely requires considerable study, first. Once you narrow it down to a very specific fine point and have studied all the possible options, then you will be ready for the answer, otherwise the answer would be meaningless to you.



[edit on 6-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

No cute Angel, I never questioned how to tell the Son of God from a false prophet!

I questioned how to identify God, Either:
God the Creator
God the Savior
or God the Supreme Being

Depending on which God you choose. You apparently choose the Savior.
You apparently also choose Jesus as that Savior.

I did read what you said.
However it seemed to be based upon the premises that:
1, You are a true Christian.
2, Jesus was not a Jew.

I believe both premises are certain impossiblitys.