OT God not the same as NT God.....

reply to post by dominicus


Gods word must come to pass.

Recently I had a talk with an old Christian mystic friend about this whole OT vs. NT dilemma. It was a 2.5 hour telephone coversation and much good came out of it.

I can say after that conversation, that the only way I can for myself ever reconcile the OT to the NT is by seeing all of the OT as a allegorical mystical text.

Mystical Judaism for me is the reconciliation. I can't take any of these thing literal: God regretting the flood, God being jealous, God ordering Moses and his army to kill hundreds of thousands of their enemies including the women and children and taking the virgins for themselves, after just having received the 10 commandments (one of which is do not kill)

Another thing my friend brought up was, "Who are you to question God."

Yeah that's a good point. But I'm not going to just sit back and blindly accept everything from a preacher/inspired book. This inquiry is very important, because my experience of God resembles everything that Jesus preached and beyond, and nothing relative to the OT

reply to post by jmdewey60


It is not important to whom Jesus was speaking to or if they were related or not, what is important is 'What' he was talking about and 'What' his teachings were. Yes, physically we are separated but as the spirit we are 1 and when I say we are 1, I dont mean just the christians and jews, I am talkin about the whole world and in 1 we need to identify ourselves as one with the universe. All I am saying is that the teachings of Jesus differ from that of Abrahamic teachings. It is more important for you to understand the subtle messages and the morals of the story rather than certain incidents of it or something that took place. Lets say for example the teachings of the kingdom of heaven as well as the transfiguration of Jesus, where do you relate that to incidents of the OT or abrahamic teachings...? Most of the Kings, judges, prophets of OT were rather heroic and killed large number of men mercilessly, but giving an excuse for killing such large number of men as to say that it was to get rid of evil, I dont buy that....God is compassionate, he is love...not a brutal violent killer....

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

 

That sounds interesting, but could you explain what it means.
The pagans oppressed the Jews? and what happened over the last 500 years? Was something done to Judaism, or do you mean Christianity is oppressive to the Jews, and are actually really worshiping Pagan gods, while pretending to worship Yahweh?
That part I can go with. The Vatican was built over the site of an ancient pagan holy place. The statue of Zeus was renamed to be Peter.
Any further elaboration of your thesis would be appreciated.

In 586BC, Nebuchadnezzar II the Great conquered Judea, and began the Babylonian Captivity, where all the best and brightest Jews were taken in exile to Babylon.

The Babylonians were polytheists, more commonly known as pagans, and their high god was Marduk. Judea became a Babylonian province, and remained that way until Cyrus the Great of Persia conquered Babylon in 539BC, turning Judea into a Persian province.

The Persians were Zoroastrians, who believe in a good god, Ahura Mazda, and a bad god, Angra Mainyu. Cyrus himself was also a patron of religion in general, styling himself a sort-of 'chosen' of Marduk and releasing the Jews from the Babylonian Captivity, in a sort of double-PR coup.

Around 333BC, the Greeks under Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire, and Judea with it. Thus ushered in the Hellenistic period, where Greek religion was introduced (my favourite is the Statue of Zeus being erected on the Temple Mount by Antiochus IV Epiphanes).

In 63BC Judea was conquered for the Romans by Pompey the Great, and made into a full province in 6AD. This nicely introduced the Imperial Cult to the Jews - the worship of the Roman Emperor himself. Naturally this caused some problems, and in 70AD the Romans pacified Judea again and destroyed the Second Temple.

Things remained this way until around 391, when Theodosius the Great made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire, outlawing paganism and ending 977 years (nearly a freaking millenium!) of polytheistic pagan rule of the only monotheistic faith on Earth. And in the end, they did not even drive them out through force of arms.

As you can see, you've got to be pretty creative as to why exactly your one true god has taken a back seat while various idols were set up in the holy places and the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. Pretty damn creative, actually.

I never noticed just how many "the Great"'s have been involved in this history. I think they may have been giving that epithet out a little too readily, in Judea...

Originally posted by CuteAngel
Pagans never oppressed the Jews, hell no! I guess you mis took the meaning of the word pagan, pagan means nature worship not idolatory or image worship. In ancient time people were not worshiping idols or images but worshiping nature.

Actually these religions all did worship idols, with the possibly exception of Zoroastrianism, which used fire as a focus for worship. I don't know whether you can consider that idolatry or not.

Originally posted by CuteAngelIt was when they took to worshiping idols and images did their god leave them and they were devastated and the jews were victorious

The Jews were never victorious. Not even against the Philistines.

Originally posted by CuteAngel
* Jesus says the soul is within you and once you identify the soul you identify yourself with God, which expalins about the kingdom of heaven being within the person. Abrahamic teaching says man's life is insignificant in front of God and we should not hesitate to kill if required for God's sake.
* Jesus teaching is spiritualism which says worship God in the form of the spirit but Abrahamic teaching is to do with following certain rituals rigidly applied.
* Jesus says initially there was existence and existence continues as existence cannot come from non existence. Abrahamic God says that we need to believe that from Non Existence only existence came.
* The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus christ. Ecclesistes says that A live Dog is better than a dead Lion as once dead we cannot get back the life.
As you can see a a few major differences in concepts. It would be wise to read through the Gospel Of Judas....

I agree with this assessment though. I do like Judas as the maligned 'favourite disciple', asked to do something hideous for love of his master.

Originally posted by Tyler 720
I cant help but be reminded of my favorite "story" of Jesus. The one were he attends church with a weapon, overturns furniture, and drives people away for the seemingly common practice of buying and selling. I know the story goes much deeper,but my point is Jesus himself showed violence, in a church none the less. Now if you believe the words spoken by Jesus,If you have seen the Son you have seen the Father, then there is God in the flesh showing violence(according to human law). What state prison or loony bin would you end up in if you went to a church and started overturning the book stores, gift shops, and kitchens selling sunday dinner?

You don't know the story very well. It's because they where sacrificing doves and lambs that where for sale on the street outside.

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

Thus ushered in the Hellenistic period, where Greek religion was introduced (my favourite is the Statue of Zeus being erected on the Temple Mount by Antiochus IV Epiphanes).
The Jews were never victorious. Not even against the Philistines.

Why would you be so happy about the Temple being defiled? Do you hate Jews? Do you think we should worship statues?
The Maccabees ran Antiochus out and cleansed the Temple and we have Hanukkah that celebrates that event. We get Jesus out of this restoration, as the heir of the Hasmonean Dynasty, a Priest/King Messiah.

reply to post by CuteAngel

Most of the Kings, judges, prophets of OT were rather heroic and killed large number of men mercilessly, but giving an excuse for killing such large number of men as to say that it was to get rid of evil, I dont buy that....God is compassionate, he is love...not a brutal violent killer....

We can look at how God did not allow David to build His Temple and left it to his son because he was a "bloody" man.
The transfiguration can be thought of as an affirmation of Jesus' claims coming from two people who represent the Law and the Prophets.
Refer to my above post concerning the dynasty that Jesus could have claimed membership in to be made a literal King of the Jews. People were expecting such a thing, so Jesus had to refute those false Messianic predictions. He did it, not by directly attacking them, but by promoting the true meaning of the Kingdom of God.
There was not so much a subtle difference between Jesus and the Jews of his time, but a drastic difference. That should not have been the case, if they had followed some of the basics of the Old Testament. An example is the charge that Joshua gives to the Israelites that is reminiscent to Jesus' explanation of the Law.
Joshua 22:5
But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Why would you be so happy about the Temple being defiled?

Because anyone who swans around claiming to have the one religion and everyone else's is bull, and then has their one great temple destroyed by said infidels probably had it coming.

Originally posted by jmdewey60Do you hate Jews?

Not at all; I don't know any. I'm sure they are all very nice people. I just don't like monotheism, as its adherents are generally jackasses about polytheism and atheism.

Originally posted by jmdewey60Do you think we should worship statues?

The biblical representation of idolatry is not accurate. The people did not worship the idol, the idol was merely a way of focusing the thoughts on the god in question. They did not think the stone statue was going to magically come to life and start doing things, they believed that it just helped to concentrate the mind and be respectful of the god.

Originally posted by jmdewey60The Maccabees ran Antiochus out and cleansed the Temple and we have Hanukkah that celebrates that event. We get Jesus out of this restoration, as the heir of the Hasmonean Dynasty, a Priest/King Messiah.

Well, perhaps temporarily, but it didn't last long:

In 142 BCE Jonathan was assassinated by Diodotus Tryphon, a pretender to the Seleucid throne, and was succeeded by Simon Maccabee, the last remaining son of Mattathias. Simon gave support to Demetrius II Nicator, the Seleucid king, and in return Demetrius exempted the Judeans from tribute. Simon conquered the port of Joppa and the fortress of Gezer and expelled the garrison from the Acra in Jerusalem. In 140 BCE, he was recognised by an assembly of the priests, leaders and elders as high priest, military commander and ruler of Judea. Their decree became the basis of the Hasmonean kingdom. Shortly after, the Roman senate renewed its alliance with the Hasmonean kingdom and commanded its allies in the eastern Mediterranean to do so also. Although the Maccabees won autonomy, Judea remained a province of the Seleucid empire and Simon was required to provide troops to Antiochus VII Sidetes, the brother of Demetrius II. When Simon refused to give up the territory he had conquered, Antiochus took them by force. Simon was murdered in 134 BCE by his son-in-law Ptolemy, and succeeded as high priest and king by his son John Hyrcanus I. Antiochus conquered the entire district of Judea, but refrained from attacking the Temple or interfering with Jewish observances. Judea was freed from Seleucid rule on the death of Antiochus in 129 BCE.[2] Judean autonomy lasted until 63 BCE, when the Roman general Pompey captured Jerusalem and subjected Judea to Roman rule, while the Hasmonean dynasty itself ended in 37 BCE when the Idumean Herod the Great became king of Judea[1] and king of the Jews[4][2].

And really that was that until the revolt against the Romans, which saw them fail.

But as you can see, the need for a promised messiah and an afterlife were essential to the Jewish religious ego; how could their god have failed them so against false gods?

Thus Christianity was born a slave's religion, one they'd be willing to die for as they truly believed there was a beautiful afterlife to go to.

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

And really that was that until the revolt against the Romans, which saw them fail.
But as you can see, the need for a promised messiah and an afterlife were essential to the Jewish religious ego; how could their god have failed them so against false gods?
Thus Christianity was born a slave's religion, one they'd be willing to die for as they truly believed there was a beautiful afterlife to go to.

There were some evil people who were all for revolt who did a despicable act in holding the people of Jerusalem hostage for their cause. They prevented the citizens from opening the gates to the Romans. This was a bad thing and I am not sure it speaks so much against the God of the Jews, but lawless people who did not care how many others they drug down with them.
The place had already served its purpose, anyway, which was to present the crucified Christ as a spectacle in the center of the world.
The afterlife did not really figure in much in Judaism. Same thing with the Messiah as such, at least up to just before Jesus came. The standard of meeting the requirements were pretty low.
Do you think paganism is better because you would not die for it? Maybe if your god had died for you, you might be more inclined to change your thoughts toward it or them.

reply to post by dominicus
Here is my suggestion; if you want to get into the Zohar, read it in John Gill, who was a Christian from back in pre-American Revolution days. He compares a lot of verses with those old books. Funny he was so into it but for some reason he was. You can read along the footnotes to find the references, then go up into the text to read excerpts in a context of the parts of the Bible it is dealing with. www.studylight.org...



[edit on 1-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
There were some evil people who were all for revolt who did a despicable act in holding the people of Jerusalem hostage for their cause. They prevented the citizens from opening the gates to the Romans.

Well, I think we should avoid subjective terms like "good" and "evil". As I am aware, it was merely the nobles organising a defence of the city. If you have a source that confirms what you say, I would love to read it myself.

Originally posted by jmdewey60This was a bad thing and I am not sure it speaks so much against the God of the Jews, but lawless people who did not care how many others they drug down with them.

Not really, I doubt there were many pro-Roman Jews in Jerusalem. And Yahweh's own actions are enough to incriminate him.

Originally posted by jmdewey60The place had already served its purpose, anyway, which was to present the crucified Christ as a spectacle in the center of the world.

At this time, Rome was the "center of the world" and everyone knew it. Christianity did not spread as far east as might be expected because it had to contend with Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, Mithraism and others.

Originally posted by jmdewey60The afterlife did not really figure in much in Judaism. Same thing with the Messiah as such, at least up to just before Jesus came. The standard of meeting the requirements were pretty low.

I'd say Jesus didn't even figure very highly in Judaism, personally.

Originally posted by jmdewey60Do you think paganism is better because you would not die for it?

There are plenty of people who died for their pagan gods. I would not die for any religion, because I don't believe in any of them, I just have a personal preference for those religions that practised syncretism rather than extermination.

Originally posted by jmdewey60Maybe if your god had died for you, you might be more inclined to change your thoughts toward it or them.

The life-death-rebirth deity is a common motif throughout the ages and is to do with the winter solstice and the position of the sun in the sky.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to worship something, you could do far worse than the sun (it is, after all, the source of all life on earth, which makes Akhenaten right), but I don't see any reason to dress it up in an allegory.

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

Well, I think we should avoid subjective terms like "good" and "evil". As I am aware, it was merely the nobles organizing a defence of the city. If you have a source that confirms what you say, I would love to read it myself.

They were evil because they went around murdering the nobles, and anyone who did not agree with them. Don't know what you are reading but Josephus was the historian on the ground for the war.

Not really, I doubt there were many pro-Roman Jews in Jerusalem. And Yahweh's own actions are enough to incriminate him.

They did have a truce that the leaders of Jerusalem had with the Romans, and they meant to honor it. These rebels had been put on the run by the Romans and took refuge in the city and meant to take it down with them. The citizens of Jerusalem were pragmatic enough to see what would happen if they continued to allow the rebels to continue.

At this time, Rome was the "center of the world" and everyone knew it. Christianity did not spread as far east as might be expected because it had to contend with Zoroastrianism, Manicheanism, Mithraism and others.

Maybe politically, Rome was the center but Jerusalem was and is the geographical center. At least one of the Christians made it to Japan, from what I think I heard on Coast to Coast AM radio.

I'd say Jesus didn't even figure very highly in Judaism, personally.

He did enough for the time. We have a loss of records of the time in the area of Judea because of the destruction of Jerusalem that you mentioned. Another big problem is that the Latin Christians quickly became powerful and they basically did a genocide on the Judaen Christians who seemed to be too independent and they burned all their books including the "Hebrew" Gospel.

The life-death-rebirth deity is a common motif throughout the ages and is to do with the winter solstice and the position of the sun in the sky.

There are these myths that were eventually connected with astronomical events but they did not involve God coming as a man and dying for our sins, as far as I know.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
They were evil because they went around murdering the nobles, and anyone who did not agree with them. Don't know what you are reading but Josephus was the historian on the ground for the war.

I'd still like to see a source, if I may. Josephus wrote many things, and I don't have the time to sift through it all to find the particulars; could you give me a book/page number?

I don't doubt your information, I'm just curious to know the fine details.

Maybe politically, Rome was the center but Jerusalem was and is the geographical center.

How can it possibly be the center of a sphere, on the outside of the sphere? Jerusalem isn't even the center of Europe and Asia (which would be somewhere just east of Persia).

Jerusalem was the center of a heretic religion, clung to by a group of people whom history had so mistreated that they were (and still are) convinced of their chosen status.

Other than that, there's nothing special there.

The life-death-rebirth deity is a common motif throughout the ages and is to do with the winter solstice and the position of the sun in the sky.

There are these myths that were eventually connected with astronomical events but they did not involve God coming as a man and dying for our sins, as far as I know.

Unfortunately, here we come to an impass.

I know you "know" that a god somehow died (I find this theologically dubious - if it can die, it is not a god) and this somehow absolves other people of sin.

However, what I also know is that this is a very old allegory for the winter solstice, and I also know that you will never accept this, as it will unravel your worldview. What happens is, from the observer's perspective, the sun does not get any lower in the sky with each passing day, and on the third day of this occuring there is a slight rise, the "rebirth" of the sun (the saviour) and thus life on Earth can continue.

I commend you on your interest in history, and for having a mind enquiring enough to even be here, but I know that your mind will not be changed because you have too much at stake here.

Thus we must conclude this discussion, and hopefully we are all a little wiser for it, albeit in different respects.

[edit on 2-6-2009 by The Last Man on Earth]

reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

However, what I also know is that this is a very old allegory for the winter solstice, and I also know that you will never accept this, as it will unravel your worldview. What happens is, from the observer's perspective, the sun does not get any lower in the sky with each passing day, and on the third day of this occuring there is a slight rise, the "rebirth" of the sun (the saviour) and thus life on Earth can continue.

None of this is news to me and someone taught me all this when I was ten years old. I have been long aware of Isis and Osiris and I was not shocked by the Zeitgeist video and could see plenty of holes in the arguments.
I can get back with you on the Josephus thing. I have had the books for 25 years and have studied them. I have it now in PDF so I can do searches in it.

Wars of the Jews: Book 4, Chapter 4, how they got into the city.
Book 5, Chapter 5, how they took control of the city.


[edit on 2-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by The Last Man on Earth

 

However, what I also know is that this is a very old allegory for the winter solstice, and I also know that you will never accept this, as it will unravel your worldview. What happens is, from the observer's perspective, the sun does not get any lower in the sky with each passing day, and on the third day of this occuring there is a slight rise, the "rebirth" of the sun (the saviour) and thus life on Earth can continue.

None of this is news to me and someone taught me all this when I was ten years old. I have been long aware of Isis and Osiris and I was not shocked by the Zeitgeist video and could see plenty of holes in the arguments.
I can get back with you on the Josephus thing. I have had the books for 25 years and have studied them. I have it now in PDF so I can do searches in it.

Wars of the Jews: Book 4, Chapter 4, how they got into the city.
Book 5, Chapter 5, how they took control of the city.


[edit on 2-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Thank you dearly for the references. I don't generally have time to go read entire texts (Plutarch's Lives an exception) and so I like to get to the meaty bits directly.

Also, if you don't mind, I would like to know what holes you find in the arguments. I don't mind if you would like me to not attempt to refute them, I'm just curious as to how you feel they are not an accurate description of the events.

Zeitgeist the video.
Not sure if what is on youtube is the same movie I saw two years ago.
I have to kind of go with what is up there now.
His conclusion makes no sense. If Christianity is just a reiteration of the old stories, what's the problem? Why should anyone care? If you are a pagan, you should be happy that the symbolism of the processes that Earth goes through is still being promoted, unless you consider the hypocrisy of it, like burning witches.
Their saying that Isis gave virgin birth is wrong. She had a son after it would have been possible to have been from her deceased husband, without some sort of miracle. Nothing like the virgin birth of Jesus, to me.
It goes from deception to silliness.
They treat the Jesus story like it was made up from whole cloth.
They claim the crown of thorns looks like the rays of the sun.They never show a a picture of thorns.
Halos in pictures of Jesus were a sign of divinity or holiness, not to make him out to be the face of the sun.
Jesus claims to be the day star, and not the sun.
They claim that Jesus was known as the great fisherman and there is no such reference.
Pisces is always two, while the Christian symbol of the single fish was some sort of reference to known miracles Jesus had performed.
Israel did have twelve sons. The number twelve showing up everywhere should not be too surprising since there are 12 months in a year.
They claim the Æons in the New Testament are really the Astrological Ages. The word comes up but are not translated to mean a distinct age, and is a way of expressing eternity.
They claim the man with the pitcher in gospel has a secret reference to the next age. As if someone is writing this and they are making inside jokes or something. They just sneak in astrological symbols whenever they have the chance, for no apparent reason.
Feel free to refute any of this but this comes off the top of my head, except for the "ages" thing, which I did an exhaustive search on. Not that hard since it really isn't so numerous as one might think.(I had already been working through it because someone brought up the Ages in another thread)


[edit on 2-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

I think the difference between the OT and NewT highlight the most important question of all theology.

How do you authenticate the identity of a being claiming to be God?
It is after all extremely important not to follow a "False God".
I have heard reference to the not following of False Gods many times, but never a method of identification. Wouldn't you expect an evil deceptive false God to lie and say they are the one true God?

Wouldn't you expect evil to come in the guise of radiant goodness and beauty?

This problem is complicated by the multiple possible definitions of what constitutes God. I think the two primary modern definitions are the ones which need to be considered. The Escaton, and the Emanuel.

If you truly believe in a Supreme being and his deceptive antagonist opponent, then you must verify that the one you choose to follow is not the deceiver.

Oh dear! Should I throw in Supreme Being as a seperate definition of God?

How do you prove the identity of the Creator?

How do you prove the identity of the Savior?

How do you prove the identity of the Supreme Being?




Personally I have questions about the whole savior thing, like what precisely are we being saved from? And if you say "We are being saved from Sin." I will likely conclude we are being saved from ignorance.
I have every intention of testing my God if ever we meet, God would expect nothing less of me. Like a mother would expect their child not to get into a car when someone pulls up and says "I'm Kinko the clown and Mommy sent me to bring you home!"

Don't be caught in the end times without your God ID Kit!


Is anyone up to the challenge? Please define how to pick your God out of a lineup of imposters, deceivers, wannabes and demigods. There will be a test after the discussion.




[edit on 2-6-2009 by Cyberbian]

reply to post by Cyberbian

Personally I have questions about the whole savior thing, like what precisely are we being saved from? And if you say "We are being saved from Sin." I will likely conclude we are being saved from ignorance.

If you read these posts on this forum enough, you run across something like, "If God knew how bad things were going to turn out, why didn't he just destroy the universe, and make a new one, instead of making us live through all this?"
Well he is. What I mean is He is going to destroy this universe and right now, well maybe tomorrow. If you stay here you are going to go into nonexistence, along with everything else.
Real God or fake god? becomes an important question, given this situation. You need to be with the one who can take you along to the new universe. Only the most high God can, and any lesser being can not.



[edit on 2-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Thank you for the response. I'm glad someone else agrees the question is important but I am puzzled by your answer.

So are you saying just get in the first car that comes along, because it's a bad neighborhood and you won't last long on the street anyway?

I think you are not saying that, yet you say to get in the car with the first one who claims that they can get you to refuge.

You have not really answered my question. How do you know?
And please define which category of God you believe in, Escaton, Emanuel or the Supreme Being. ( or other / all ) provide work for ID of any chosen.

The utterance of the phrase "Yo buddy, get in the flying saucer, this solar system is about to blow and I can get you to Alpha Centauri and refuge, besides, I have candy!" is not in my opinion proof of Deity.

What is more I do not fear death. I have glimpsed the existence of life beyond the physical. Fear is the worst possible tool for choosing your deity!
The choice will not free you from fear, it will potentially bind you to an eternity of fear.


[edit on 3-6-2009 by Cyberbian]

reply to post by Cyberbian

"Yo buddy, get in the flying saucer, this solar system is about to blow and I can get you to Alpha Centauri and refuge, besides, I have candy!"

That is a good example of who not to go with. If you have a ship, that is good evidence that you are not all-powerful.
My brain is about shot for the day, so I am a little worried about saying the wrong thing, but I feel pretty safe saying that anywhere in the universe will not be safe.
Tickets to some safe spot is probably a good sign that someone has you picked out for future food when things get bad. I am not kidding on this. People have had these things figured out from a long time ago and are a danger to us.
Zeitgeist has it all figured out, in their minds at least, that we have bunches of gods claiming to be risen from the dead. That waters down the claim from Jesus and makes it seem like not such a great thing to claim about himself. If you are not already too discouraged Jesus says that he has been given power to raise the dead. This is what I put my hope in.
This goes right back to the same problem because you are already faced with someone who is pointing to a higher authority. So how can we trust him? He has another ability that he has been given, and that is the Holy Ghost who can speak to us on a spiritual level to where He can give us confidence, enough to believe.
The Old Testament God says, "You can not serve Me because I am a holy God." Jesus says we can know Him "because the Father is in me and I am in the Father."
You asked earlier if we need to be saved from ignorance, well I guess we have to overcome our ignorance of our salvation. The Holy Spirit is the teacher who Jesus says will lead us into all knowledge.
As for ID'ing God, Jesus says, I also am the Lord of the Sabbath. So, this is our ID by recognizing God, through His ID, which is His sign of His being our creator.
I am sure this has to sound really Hokey, but there isn't anything else given, other than that.