Its time to defeat the powers that be - by adopting communisim!

Originally posted by JohnD
In it's purest form, the only time communism truly ever worked was in some of the world's "primitive" cultures such as the Lakota or the Khanty. Then again, who am I or anyone else to refer to the native cultures of the world as "primitive".
.............

They were not Communists...people could think for themselves, and there was no destruction of individualism. The natives for the most part were also very spiritual, which cannot exist in the perfect Communist state as it conflicts with the Communist goals, and the manifesto...

The native people's also had their problems, and fought each other before the white man ever came to the United States. Like almost any other nation, except dictatorships such as Communist regimes, they had their good days, and bad days. They were/are far from perfect.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


The worse form of government is our current one in the developed world - look at the statistics and see how many people in the world live below the poverty line.

As for your American nationalism - its doesn't apply to me as I think most developed countries had just as much of the so called freedoms that the original constitution of the U.S. had, e.g. the original French revolution etc, the foundation of the Irish republic etc.

The point is, is that capitalism and flawed republicanism brought the world to the stage it is currently in and not the reds under the bed which you like senator McCarthy in his time seem to see everywhere.

Your own president Eisenhower who fought for your country seem the corporations and the Military Industrial complex as the greatest threat to the US and not the Socialist Autocratic states.

LOL!
You people amuse me!

You complain about being governed and you are debating (can't really call it that thou...) about what would be the best kind of GOVERNMENT for you!
That's a big LOOOOL for you!

You WANT to be governed and so you WILL be governed!
And then you complain about not beeing "free"...

FOOLS!

You are not willing to take responsibility for yourself. You want GODS to take care of you. To force companies to limit work-time, to get rid of the criminals, to protect you, to feed you, to house you, to bring justice to the people who hurt you, and so on.

So someone else RECIEVES this responsibility from you! He doesn't even take it! You give it to him!
Loans are a good example. What do you think how the first loan was born?
Do you think that a bank put a sign on their buildings, saying "we are lending money now"?
Or do you think that ordinary people saw that the (first) bank had money from people who were depositing it and wanted to get that money (because they were greedy) so they persuaded the banks to lend them the money and offered interest as a reward for this loan?

You conspiracy-theorists know so much and yet they do NOTHING about it!
YOU ARE DOING NOTHING!

Why is that?
Ask yourself NOW! Why is that?

Because deep down you KNOW who takes care of you!
The very persons you dislike so much for governing you.

Oh sure... you want to wake people up.
And why is this?
It's because you want THEM to take responsibility from you. I'm sorry...I meant RECIEVE responsibility from you!
You know that this is TRUE!
You want some Alex Jones as president so he can take all that responsibility away from you!

You might say "we only need more till we are enough".
Enough for WHAT?
Protest in the streets?
Overthrow government?
Kill the elite?

And then? What then? Establishing a new and "fair" system?
Don't make me laugh!
The truth is that YOU DON'T KNOW what "then"!

You need GODS (TV-resporters, alex joneses, obamas, ron paulses, etc.) to tell you what "then"! You need fancy stuff (UFOS, Sacred Geometry, Hollow Earth, The spirit-world, etc.) to distract you from constantly reminding you that you UTTERLY FAIL at living YOUR LIFE!

Now how does THAT make one feel?
I personally think that it's a good enough feeling to start THINKING and DOING something about it!

....and you sheeple are debating what government would be the best...UTTER FAIL!


sincerely
zolom

Count there is no point fighting for ideals when so many sheeple have grown up brainwashed by the powers in charge, demonizing what they call communism. They will tell you it will never work because they are afraid of it or fatalists beyond salvation.

As being part russian, I know what was life in the soviet union. It wasnt good but wasnt that bad either, people werent cold or hungry, everybody had jobs and could afford anything available to them (not much its true).
But party communism isnt communism.

It is true however that we are not ready for such system. Too many think "me me me" instead of "us us us" and cling on their gold sacks and guns.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Every Communist state is trying to spread the revolution around the world...so every Communist state is trying to do the same thing you are doing...

Communists like you claim that the dictatorship will solve it's problems by spreading around the world, which is nothing more than the lies of people who have never experienced the truth of Communism.

Doesn't the US try to spread it's capitalist style democracy and send in troops to help police the people and establish the new democracy after blasting them into less than third world condition?

This person you are attacking is advocating a democratic style of communism, not a dictatorship. Perhaps you have adopted another generations bias and prejudices which taints your view of anyone using the term communism.

Relax a bit, and enjoy the debate.

reply to post by zolom


Whoa there with the 'Fools' label!
In America, we cherish FREEDOM! The ability to live and procure what we need WITHOUT government interference.
The point is that we have to have a country with a law system, to MAINTAIN a country against lawlessness. Chinese invasions, others........
What would you have???

Capitalism is the only thing that has advanced the human condition, communism didn't move us forward one inch, that's why it failed.

People need incentives to be truly motivated, and we have seen time and time again that "the good of the state" just didn't hack it.

Communism is a great idea if you're in college, I'm surprised that you still find it an attractive concept in your thirties.

reply to post by zolom


You are obviously very misguided as to the aims and thoughts of people on this thread and the word sheeple implies people who do not think.

We are in fact debating the type of society that we would like to live in globally - one in which is run by the people and for the people.

You on the other hand have gone off on so many misguided tangents and throw insults into the bargain that I really have no idea what your espousing if anything at all.

reply to post by TheOracle


Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I agree that most people don't seem to get the true aims of communism and perhaps it is just wishful thinking to want that type of society but if we don't debate the issue and let people know what true communism is vs autocratic socialism then we may never get there.

reply to post by zolom


Now that you have told us what the problems are, do you have any intelligent solutions for us to ponder?

Originally posted by count66
..................
The point is, is that capitalism and flawed republicanism brought the world to the stage it is currently in and not the reds under the bed which you like senator McCarthy in his time seem to see everywhere.

Your own president Eisenhower who fought for your country seem the corporations and the Military Industrial complex as the greatest threat to the US and not the Socialist Autocratic states.

Wrong, the point is that the same flawed, and dictatorial ideals which you want to spread around the world only oppress the people, and destroys nations.

The Corporations are trying to use Communism to reach their goal of total control, in this case the Corporation will substitute the state by implementing most of the same ideals that you, and other brainwashed Communists want to spread around the world.

A Republic such as the United States, as it was agreed by the forefathers of this nation is one of the best forms of government, and not your flawed Communism.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by Clearskies


What I would like to have?
I'm working to want I want to have.

It lies in my responsibility. I don't want to have any system. Or better...why would I care?
Why would I care in what "system" I live if I can take responsibility for myself?
I do what I see fit. No matter what the laws are. Yet I never conciously broke it. If someone kills my family it lies in MY responsibility to think about wheter I kill him or not. No matter what the laws are!
If I want to drive without the seat-belt I do it! I have to the the responsibility for it! And I will do so!

THIS is FREEDOM!
The very freedom you seek and fail to find!
Not that fake freedom the USA and the rest of the world was entitled with by the elite.

We don't HAVE to life in a law society!
You WANT to life in a law society because you want the responsibility for your own actions to be taken away from you!

THINK about it!

Everyone believes it was Stalin who murdered so many in the takeover of Russia, but Trotsky and Lenin (Not their real names) were the orchestrators of the brutal Cheka!
en.wikipedia.org...

The other Bolsheviks agreed, and instructed Felix Dzerzhinsky, whom Lenin had appointed to head the Cheka in 1917, to commence a “Red Terror”, which was officially announced to the public on 1 September 1918, by the Bolshevik newspaper, Krasnaya Gazeta.[43] According to Christopher Read, at this time, due to the assassination attempt by Kaplan, Lenin was lying severely wounded in the hospital and was too ill to advise retaliatory measures.[44] But, according to MI5's official historian at the University of Cambridge, Christopher Andrew, and Richard Pipes, while recovering from his wounds, Lenin instructed: "It is necessary - secretly and urgently to prepare the terror."[45][46] According to Pipes, Lenin's Hanging Order, which was translated and published by Robert Service Professor of history at Oxford and an outspoken anti-communist,[47] claims that Lenin himself ordered terror on 11 August 1918, before he was fired on.[48]
The Cheka killed and abused their victims without mercy, says historian Robert Gellately.[unreliable source?] In his book, Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe,[49] Gellately, Earl Ray Beck Professor of History at Florida State University, claims that suspected enemies could expect brutal torture, flogging, maiming or execution. Some were shot, others drowned, frozen, buried alive, or hacked to death by swords, and quite often those about to be executed were forced to dig their own graves, Gellately claims.[50] Many lurid and often embellished accounts of these atrocities were produced. A British observer claimed that "The evidence of wholesale executions...of the cold-blooded and refined tortures carried out by Chinese experts and of the revolting sadism of young Jewesses is irrefutable".[51] Historians Serge Petrovich Melgunov, who supported the armed overthrow of the Bolsheviks, W. Bruce Lincoln and George Leggett also claim that these atrocities occurred.[52][53][54][unreliable source?] Orlando Figes, Professor of History at Birkbeck College and who has also written extensively against communism, claims the torture practiced by the Chekas was matched only by the Spanish Inquisition.[55]. The only published Soviet statistics regarding Cheka executions are the semi-official ones provided by the Chekist Martin Latsis, limited to RSFSR over the period 1918–1920, giving the grand total of 12,733 executed, including 3,082 for taking part in rebellions, 2,024 for membership of counter-revolutionary organisations, 643 for gangsterism, 455 for incitement to revolution, 206 for corruption, 102 for desertion and the same number for espionage.[56] These statistics are considered by many scholars to be understatements, as they do not embrace the war zones of the Ukraine or the Crimea.[57] In the latter at least 50,000 people were shot or hanged after General Wrangel was put down at the end of 1920, according to Robert Gellately.[58] Some historians estimate that between 1917 and 1922 up to 280,000 people were killed by the Chekas, of which about half perished through summary executions and the other half through the suppression of rebellions (e.g. Tambov Rebellion).[59] Orlando Figes goes so far as to assert that it is possible more people were killed by the Cheka than died in battle.

Remember Stalin wasn't in charge until 1922!

According to Orlando Figes, Lenin had always been an advocate of “mass terror against enemies of the revolution” and was open about his view that the proletarian state was a system of organized violence against the capitalist establishment. Figes also claims that the terror, while encouraged by the Bolsheviks, had its roots in a popular anger against the privileged.[65] When Kamenev and Bukharin tried to curb the “excesses” of the Cheka in late 1918, it was Lenin who defended it.[66] In 1921, the Politboro, chaired by Lenin, expanded the Cheka's use of the death penalty.

Trotsky (Davidovich Bronstein) was in charge with Lenin(Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov)
until Stalin took over!

Allied with Lenin, he successfully defeated attempts by other Bolshevik Central Committee members (Zinoviev, Kamenev, Alexei Rykov, etc) to share power with other socialist parties.
By the end of 1917, Trotsky was unquestionably the second man in the Bolshevik Party after Lenin, overshadowing the ambitious Zinoviev, who had been Lenin's top lieutenant over the previous decade, but whose star appeared to be fading. This turnaround led to enmity between the two Bolshevik leaders which lasted until 1926 and did much to destroy them both.
[edit]

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Clearskies]

Originally posted by Retseh
Capitalism is the only thing that has advanced the human condition, communism didn't move us forward one inch, that's why it failed.

People need incentives to be truly motivated, and we have seen time and time again that "the good of the state" just didn't hack it.

Communism is a great idea if you're in college, I'm surprised that you still find it an attractive concept in your thirties.

Capitalism fosters greed. It has definately advanced that aspect of the human condition. Now the capitalist system is collapsing. Greed is nothing to bragg about.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


The whole point of communism which you seem to have missed is that corporations don't exist - rather co operatives run by the people where the boards are elected directly by the workers contrary to the system which is currently in place.

Corporations cannot spread communism as they are not communist in the first place.

Dictatorships are not communist as they are not elected or answerable to the people as communism advances

Originally posted by TheOracle
..............
As being part russian, I know what was life in the soviet union. It wasnt good but wasnt that bad either, people werent cold or hungry, everybody had jobs and could afford anything available to them (not much its true).
But party communism isnt communism.

It is true however that we are not ready for such system. Too many think "me me me" instead of "us us us" and cling on their gold sacks and guns.

I know some Cuban people who have been as brainwashed, and as indoctrinated as you have been. Perhaps you were part of a family that were rulers/high ranking military officers in the Communist system, or perhaps you grew up to believe through your indoctrination that Communism will one day solve everything, but that is not the truth.

People do go hungry in Communist regimes, including Russia. Communism is the spread of poverty equally to those who are not part of the system, but even that system spread unequally poverty.

My family in Cuba do not go hungry because we send them money, and because they are a large family, and they spread chores, which includes searching for some meat in the black market, which means going to farms where the state hasn't been able to get to regularly, and buying a pig, or some chickens from them. But i also know a good friend of mine, whose family was limited to her, her mother, and father, who were separated, and she has told me that she would go hungry up to two weeks at a time.

Communism is not the awnser, as it destroys the individual, and spiritualism.


[edit on 3-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by count66


In my "hippy" mode in the late 60's-early 70's, I too went through my "awakening", much as you are now. I embraced the teachings of Marx and Trotsky. Nixon/Agnew was TPTB back then. Criminals in the highest office representing the wealthy warmongers called the military-industrial complex and the elite wealth barons.

To make a long story shorter, let me just say this: No earthly system is immune from human greed and exploitation of one group over another. The American system of checks and balances came close because it recognized this tendency of imperfect man to take advantage of his own kind for self enrichment. We lost this aspect (checks and balances) in our government long ago and have since been rolling towards a fascist state at an ever increasing speed. We're about there now.

Communism will not save us. We are destined to be enslaved by our masters and controlled in every aspect of our pitiful existence. You need not read Marx or Trotsky. Read "1984", for this is our lot in life for the future. Outside of God there is NO hope for the future, in my opinion. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers of the air." Our enemy is spiritual as is our hope of salvation.

reply to post by Clearskies


Lenin and Trotsky were at war and were being invaded by many different countries - I have posted some of the troops from the many different countries involved in that invasion earlier.

The whole point of that invasion was to sow hatred and resprisals so as to bring down the revolution. They were also fought on the inside by the Tsarists, capitalists and Mensheviks who also realised that they would have to lose much of the wealth they had hoarded to the detriment of the people they claimed to govern.

I'm not saying everything they did was right but you have to understand the context in which they operated.

Its not different then say the many loyalists who were killed post the American revolution.

reply to post by romanmel


I have read 1984 and it is as much of a warning against autocratic societies as it was against the corporational societies as we have today.

As for the religious aspect of your quote, Jesus was probably one of the greatest advocates of True communism who ever lived.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Unfortunately Cuba is also an autocratic dictatorship and not a communist state.