is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
\No. those men from 325 ad are the leaders of Gods church, you may not think so but I do.
Not including the miracles and saints that this church has provided. And the fact is that scripture itself says that the interpreting body or hiearchy will have the ability to loose and bind on Earth.
after death God wil show you the mystery I am talking about and I can't wait.
bye. peace.

There was a Roman religious establishment that existed and had an official status inside the government. This institution was pagan and had a hierarchy that officiated over it that just so happened to be from the pagan priesthood. Once the religion of Christ became the official religion, these same upper echelon of pagans went right into the same positions they had, but now were inside the "church". They were not required nor bothered to be actually converted to Christians.
If Jesus gave authority to the church, he gave it to the Apostles. The inheritors of that authority, if such a thing is possible, would be the bishops of the individual churches. At the time of the Council of Nicea, about half of the Bishops were good Christians who believed in the Bible. The other half were mainly interested in position and power. The outcome of Nicea was a grab for more power. The half of the delegates who were Christian walked out of the council. The remaining ones devised a doctrine based on pagan philosophy and turned the teachings of the Bible upside-down.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Bluejay, thank you for posting the link to that video... "The Human Jesus". I hope a lot of people get to watch it. One thing I would point out about this video is that it says Jesus did not have a pre-human existance, and I think the Bible is quite clear that Jesus DID have a pre-human existence, as Rev 3:14 clearly says... "he is the beginning of the creation by God."

Also, there's a Bible researcher on the video that says "we don't have the right to believe what WE WANT TO believe before God". I LOVE that statement. Yes we live in a free country and we have the freedom to believe what we want before MEN, but WE DON'T have that freedom before GOD. I love that thought. We all have the responsibility of seeking truth, but on God's terms, not ours.

Peace!

JD dewey the church does not teach pagansism, this is false. Secondly God predicted a church with a governing body to spread throughout the entire world with a sacrafice that would last until the end of time.

and create souls like the one in my signature from communion which is predicted all the way back to daniel. And infact will be taken away during antichrist reign.

but anyways, this is the ONLY church to spread throughout the world, existed well before protestantism and before the bible was put together by the same church.






Miriam.

You just provided that scripture.

" to their own destruction "

Yet you do the same exact thing on your interpretation of the holy ghost, which is your opinion, just like I interpret differently. That's the problem with you protestants, is your pride in your own interpetation which is why 3,000 different churches exist since 1500



" Baptise all creatures in the name of the father and son and holy ghost "

Why? Why baptise in Jesus and the holy ghost name if they aren't divine like God/

It's like you people are spiritually blind. At the end you, and mark these words you souls. God will

1. rebuild this church
2. show you the mystery of the trinity and that it's a real doctrine



after antichrist takes away the continual sacrafice predicted by him this church will be rebuilt and will produce saints like the girl in my sig and you will either be apart of it or not.

mark those words too because it's not far off.


Now as for the right hand. Being at the right hand is irrelevant concerning those scriptures because the bottom line is that he's still at the right hand which like those passages say, means a position of power. And jesus is that power.

The only reason I say that is because the heart is on the left side. And like I said, I could be wrong about this mystery but I don't believe it;s a coincidence that those 3 points are like a triangle and perfectly constructed that way.


so on that note, nomore circular argument for me. continue with the thread.

peace.

[edit on 2-4-2009 by JesusisTruth]

reply to post by JesusisTruth

JD dewey the church does not teach pagansism, this is false. Secondly God predicted a church with a governing body to spread throughout the entire world with a sacrafice that would last until the end of time.
and create souls like the one in my signature from communion which is predicted all the way back to daniel. And infact will be taken away during antichrist reign.
but anyways, this is the ONLY church to spread throughout the world, existed well before protestantism and before the bible was put together by the same church.

Mardi Gras is considered a religious observance by the Catholic Church. Feasting, drunkenness and revelry ,parties and parades? That is pagan, sorry to disappoint you. Jesus did not teach mardi gras.
The body is the church and Jesus is the governor, or head of the body. The Catholic Church may be the one church that went to the ends of the earth to kill any Christians that did not submit to their authority. The message of the true kingdom went out from Jesus himself and it did not wait around for a bureaucracy to elect a pope.
If by communion you mean "the Mass" that is wrong because it is a more recent invention and the church got along fine for hundreds of years without it. The sacrifice belongs to Christ and was not given out on loan for priests to offer up as if it was their own.

reply to post by JesusisTruth


I seriously can't believe what I am reading here. If you are Catholic you MUST do some serious research on your own church's history. Attacking Miriam because you think she is Protestant, ROFL that is too funny on so many levels, if you only knew.

I am sure she will have something to say about that.

My family background is Catholic that go many generations back to the 17th century.
Many were Priests and Nuns as well.

My grandmother left the Catholic church after her priest took her own personal authorized signed by the Bishop, Catholic bible and threw it into a wood stove fire in her own home, right in front of the whole family, and told her not worry about anything in there, but to just look after her family and make babies! She paid a lot of money for that bible and was a poor woman, as my mom tells it, it was one of the few times in her life she saw her mom actually get angry. And my Grandfather his temper was more volatile he wanted to strangle that priest for his rude ignorant arrogance. He was suppose to be a man of God and he is burning bibles, even the Bishop approved Catholic bible. Well that was the final straw to push them away from Catholicism.

My entire immediate family then left the church. Of course this was all long before I was ever born.

But what my family knows about the Catholic church is so terrible, it is literally impossible, for them to be the path to God.

Not all Catholics are bad obviously, my grandmother was a kind and gentle soul even when she was Catholic, but the organization is evil to it's very core. And that's why she left it.
And really anybody that spends any time at ATS should know about this.





[edit on 2-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
JD dewey the church does not teach pagansism, this is false.

www.biblebelievers.com...

Secondly God predicted a church with a governing body to spread throughout the entire world with a sacrafice that would last until the end of time.

jesus predicted that there would be an apostasy first. and it would start right after him and his appointed apostles die.

matt 13:24-43

but anyways, this is the ONLY church to spread throughout the world, existed well before protestantism and before the bible was put together by the same church.

its also the only church stained by the blood of millions of people killed by it through crusades and inquisitions.

mr..._sedivy.tripod.com/med_hist3.html

its the only church that tried to literally destroy god´s word the bible by killing anyone who attempted to own, read or translate it.

www.channel4.com...

Miriam.

You just provided that scripture.

" to their own destruction "

Yet you do the same exact thing on your interpretation of the holy ghost, which is your opinion, just like I interpret differently.

my interpretation carries more weight because

1- i actually read the passages i am presenting.
2- i let the scripture dictate doctrine, i dont force it into a preconceived belief.
3- i cross reference my scriptures to see if what i am understanding is in harmony with the rest of the bible.

when you can present an arguement that fits this criteria, then i will listen to you.

That's the problem with you protestants, is your pride in your own interpetation which is why 3,000 different churches exist since 1500

ill be honest, at times i really dont have the patience for you. its like your not actually thinking about what you are saying.

did i ever say i was a protestant?
do you realize that alot of my beliefs do NOT coincide with protestant teachings?
did the possibility ever occur to you to ask me if i was protestant?

please do not assume.

" Baptise all creatures in the name of the father and son and holy ghost "

Why? Why baptise in Jesus and the holy ghost name if they aren't divine like God

god- because he is who we worship. because he provided the son. because was the one how provided the solution to adam´s sin. because it is to him we dedicate ourselves to.

jesus- because it is his life that was given. because he was appointed our king. because we view him as our exemplar. because it is through him that we can approach god.

holy spirit- because we acknowledge its effect on our lives. because we accept its guidance. because we accept that it is through holy spirit that we accomplish anything.

if you read the bible, then you would understand their relationship.

Now as for the right hand. Being at the right hand is irrelevant concerning those scriptures because the bottom line is that he's still at the right hand which like those passages say, means a position of power. And jesus is that power.

The only reason I say that is because the heart is on the left side. And like I said, I could be wrong about this mystery but I don't believe it;s a coincidence that those 3 points are like a triangle and perfectly constructed that way.

your right, jesus is in a position of power. and no those scriptures are not irrelevant. they show jesus relationship to god.

so on that note, nomore circular argument for me. continue with the thread.

1 john 5:20 But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

please... stop waiting until you die to know the truth, ¨for there is... knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol¨. study the bible for yourself.



[edit on 2-4-2009 by miriam0566]

www.biblebelievers.com...

Miriam


That website is bias. I garuntee you that our church has not taught an ounce of paganism and has condmend it forever, go read council of trent documents and catechism. This is more bias.





Secondly God predicted a church with a governing body to spread throughout the entire world with a sacrafice that would last until the end of time.



jesus predicted that there would be an apostasy first. and it would start right after him and his appointed apostles die.

matt 13:24-43


Miriam


He did not say it would be right after the first apostles. That is just not true, he said unless the apostasy come first and the revolt ect..... Which was the protestant reformation in the 1500s




but anyways, this is the ONLY church to spread throughout the world, existed well before protestantism and before the bible was put together by the same church.



its also the only church stained by the blood of millions of people killed by it through crusades and inquisitions.

mr..._sedivy.tripod.com/med_hist3.html

its the only church that tried to literally destroy god´s word the bible by killing anyone who attempted to own, read or translate it.

www.channel4.com...


No no no, good Lord. God made a hiearchy just like the OT to interpret scripture. How can you not see this? And alot of those wars were from defense from the muslims so that blood just like what God did in the OT. God is filled with blood stains on his people in the OT too, just like that he needs to war because of powers against his church. So again you don't know the full story of those events.



Miriam.

You just provided that scripture.

" to their own destruction "

Yet you do the same exact thing on your interpretation of the holy ghost, which is your opinion, just like I interpret differently.



my interpretation carries more weight because

1- i actually read the passages i am presenting.
2- i let the scripture dictate doctrine, i dont force it into a preconceived belief.
3- i cross reference my scriptures to see if what i am understanding is in harmony with the rest of the bible.

when you can present an arguement that fits this criteria, then i will listen to you.



Yea I actually read them too but I don't interpret them as fact, I listen to the body God set up years ago who have way more jurisdiction then you. And no you won't listen to me because you completely ignored my point on the mass and continual sacrafice because either the catholic church is too hard to follow and a belief in God jesus is easy without any extra baggage.

Now look Miriam, you are correct about this. I do say we are walking trinites, this sounds forceful and you are right. I don't know for sure. i could be dead wrong.

So let me rephrase myself.

I believe we are walking trinities implanted on our torso, but I could be wrong.



That's the problem with you protestants, is your pride in your own interpetation which is why 3,000 different churches exist since 1500



ill be honest, at times i really dont have the patience for you. its like your not actually thinking about what you are saying.

did i ever say i was a protestant?
do you realize that alot of my beliefs do NOT coincide with protestant teachings?
did the possibility ever occur to you to ask me if i was protestant?

please do not assume.



This is correct, but your interpretation of scripture on your own merits is just like protestants.

" Baptise all creatures in the name of the father and son and holy ghost "

Why? Why baptise in Jesus and the holy ghost name if they aren't divine like God



god- because he is who we worship. because he provided the son. because was the one how provided the solution to adam´s sin. because it is to him we dedicate ourselves to.

jesus- because it is his life that was given. because he was appointed our king. because we view him as our exemplar. because it is through him that we can approach god.

holy spirit- because we acknowledge its effect on our lives. because we accept its guidance. because we accept that it is through holy spirit that we accomplish anything.

if you read the bible, then you would understand their relationship.



I have read the bible over and over and do realize their relashionship. The difference is that Gods hiearchy who has jurisdiction (loose and bind) interpreted that scripture saying that those three are one and I believe it.

who is the holy spirit? just some angel God made that floats around in our body? No. It's God himself, grace itself. jesus is God and said he was over and over and confirmed in phillipians.

Now as for the right hand. Being at the right hand is irrelevant concerning those scriptures because the bottom line is that he's still at the right hand which like those passages say, means a position of power. And jesus is that power.

The only reason I say that is because the heart is on the left side. And like I said, I could be wrong about this mystery but I don't believe it;s a coincidence that those 3 points are like a triangle and perfectly constructed that way.



your right, jesus is in a position of power. and no those scriptures are not irrelevant. they show jesus relationship to god.




so on that note, nomore circular argument for me. continue with the thread.



1 john 5:20 But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

please... stop waiting until you die to know the truth, ¨for there is... knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol¨. study the bible for yourself.


Oh so i'm going to hell? You don'y know me like that and don't assume.

Miriam I do read the bible but that bible cannot be interpreted by ME alone which is the difference between you and me.

If everybody can interpret scripture by themselves which is what you are doing, then division comes. So whos the head? Who settles the argument?

God created an orginization for that and I'm sorry you can't see it.


peace.



[edit on 2-4-2009 by miriam0566]

JD dewey

Mardi grai?

mardi grai??

LOL are you talking about the new freemasonic Vatican 11 church?

That council is the council of the end times, completely noncatholic and it's the new age council that free masons have talked about since the early 1900s by making use of the church through infiltration.

all popes since then have been antipopes.


Mardi gria is evil. The true pre vatican 11 church would not approve such an event.


peace.

the quote system is useful. if you hit the quote button you will see ¨tags¨ before and after the message you are quoting. if you are quoting someone, simply put the tags before and after the section you want to quote.

to break quotes up, simply make put 2 sets of tags. example -

(quote) something miriam said (/quote)

my reply

(quote) something else miriam said (/quote)

my reply....


except instead of ( you want [

this way your messages arent impossible to read.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
That website is bias. I garuntee you that our church has not taught an ounce of paganism and has condmend it forever, go read council of trent documents and catechism. This is more bias.

lol, im 99% certain that you didnt even click on it. and if you did, you looked at it no longer than a few seconds.

¨The Catholic church teaches that Peter was the first Pope¨

¨Roman Catholics believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and was sinless all of her life.¨

¨The Catholic Church teaches that a Christian's soul must burn in purgatory after death until all of their sins have been purged.¨

"Christ...commanded that his bloody sacrifice on the Cross should be daily renewed by an unbloody sacrifice of his body and blood in the Mass under the simple elements of bread and wine." (The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 10, Pg. 13, Article: "Mass, Sacrifice of") ¨

¨"It is lawful to have images in the Church, and to give honor and worship unto them... (The Catechism of the Council of Trent)"

so your saying that the church practices none of these things? that this bias website is just making it up?

He did not say it would be right after the first apostles. That is just not true, he said unless the apostasy come first and the revolt ect..... Which was the protestant reformation in the 1500s

no, it was peter who said that the apostasy has to come first. not jesus, READ the things i post before you reply to them.

matt 13:[24] Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

jesus later explains who this man is.

[37] He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
[38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
[39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

simple question... when does satan begin sowing the weeds?

No no no, good Lord. God made a hiearchy just like the OT to interpret scripture. How can you not see this? And alot of those wars were from defense from the muslims so that blood just like what God did in the OT. God is filled with blood stains on his people in the OT too, just like that he needs to war because of powers against his church. So again you don't know the full story of those events.

it isnt defense when you go to another´s country and attack them. sending knights to jerusalem wasnt defense.

and this is how you explain away the inquisition? so i take it the jews were a threat to the church? thats your explanation?

what would jesus do? im sure he would throw the heathen on the rank until he squealed.

its upsetting to me that you would defend an institution like that.

I believe we are walking trinities implanted on our torso, but I could be wrong.

let me rephrase my position too.

in order to prove one has a trinity implanted in their torso, one must first prove there is a trinity

This is correct, but your interpretation of scripture on your own merits is just like protestants.

not at all. i use scripture as precedent.

example.

church - our souls are immortal.

ezek 18: [20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

church teaching = wrong.

see how simple that is?

1 john 5:20 But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

please... stop waiting until you die to know the truth, ¨for there is... knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol¨. study the bible for yourself.

Oh so i'm going to hell? You don'y know me like that and don't assume.

we all go to hell, but you would understand that if you knew what hell is.

Miriam I do read the bible but that bible cannot be interpreted by ME alone which is the difference between you and me.

If everybody can interpret scripture by themselves which is what you are doing, then division comes. So whos the head? Who settles the argument?

God created an orginization for that and I'm sorry you can't see it.

i know, you are right. god did create an organization and there is a hierarchy.

1 cor 11:[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

(ironically this scripture further disproves the trinity by showing that jesus is not equal to god but rather submissive like a woman would be to her husband.)

so i agree, god does have an organization. and you are right, god will reform his church.

john 4:[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

i just dont believe the catholic church is it. god would not support a bloodthirsty organization that has nothing but contempt for his word.

reply to post by JesusisTruth
Doing some research on a book I am trying to put together on the hideous murders of protestants in the area of the Duchy of Piedmont, I was reading a letter from the Ambassador to the general area around Switzerland for Cromwell, a Mr. Pell. He wrote a letter to the Secretary of state about how a meeting was had to be postponed because of the tradition in the town it was to be held in.

From Zurich, February 3-13,1655. The council here may do well hereafter to look into the almanack before they appoint days for general meetings. Some in the popish cantons take it for a kind of affront that Zurich called them to appear at Baden on Shrove Sunday. No political consultations must be thought so considerable as the continuing of old customs : gluttony, drunkenness, and foolery, the first three days of the week for a carnival, and then, the rest of the week, ashes and mortification. But their uncatholic neighbours think it had been no great matter for two of a canton to have been from home in that week, especially when they were to be in Baden, a catholic town. The truth is, those of Zurich thought not on it, Shrove Sunday in the old style being four weeks later than the new style this year. The deputies of Bern were come as far as Arraw before they heard that the meeting was put off. Basil had signified how glad they were of such a meeting ; and they were about to have written to Zurich for a general assembly, because of some urgent affairs of theirs. Hereafter, when we are assured that our popish neighbours are in the humour to go from home, we shall be ready to gratify Basil ; for by that time, it may be, the occasion will be past which made Bern desire that meeting.

A little over the heads of people not students of history. This is what was on my mind, and it says a lot that is not so readily apparent from a casual glance. I thought it interesting how much of a contrast there was between the catholic and non catholic cantons of the area around Switzerland back in the reformation times. It became very evident if you showed up at Mardi Gras time. Any serious business had to be postponed, even if it possibly meant the destruction of your country because of a military alliance that was not agreed upon.
This celebration goes back to the time of Nimrod and commemorates his death. The people partied because in ancient Europe he was known as Bacchus. So according to the old pagan ritual, you reenact the good times they had when Bacchus was around and then you reenact the misery when Beacon Fires were lit and transfered the message throughout the ancient land that their great lord was dead.

I just wanted to add to my previous post that my Grandmother taught the Catholic catechism & theology she was a school teacher she knew the Dogma all to well. So when one day she was encouraged to buy her own bible and look up certain passages, that contradict Catholic doctrine, one of them being the trinity she did. Because my grandmother was smart, humble and had intellectual honesty and didn't have an addiction to the emotional need to keep doing what 10 generations before her had done, it led to her questioning her priest on many of the verses of the bible we have discussed in this thread. When he never had the answers, that's when in frustration he chucked the bible in the fire.

It's interesting how priests act when proved wrong, my older brother when 12 years old was slapped in the face by a priest after a 20 minute conversion where he destroyed the catechism with his bible. A 12 year old boy knew more about the bible than a catholic priest, what a humiliating shame.

Again the bible says.
Matthew 7 verses 15-23
15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

I can speak from family experience this verse absolutely applies to the catholic church. Really bad fruit, the worst.





[edit on 2-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 2-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33



Speaking of the Catholic Religion, it's also VERY ritualistic, and promotes all kinds of weird superstitions. My mom died when I was very young. My family made my siblings and I wear dark colored clothes ONLY for 5 years after her death. We were forbidden to wear any kind of bright colored clothes. It's no wonder I love black so much, I own a lot of black clothes, it's kinda sad when I think about it.

Anyway, when I was about 9 or 10 years old, a pair of JW's would come to give me and my sister Bible studies, and at that age I could discern and understand the truth of the Bible. The simplicity of it is amazing. For me, that's another proof that the trinity is false, if a child can't understand it, than start questioning it. Why trinitarians have to redefine simple words like father, son, sent, firstborn, only-begotten, is beyond me.

Well, I am not sure why, but at some point, my sister and I stopped studying the Bible with those two "sisters". Than all through my teenage years, I studied other faiths, even got into astrology... but my search for truth led me back to... well you know where

Thank you bluejay for sharing some of your history

reply to post by Blue_Jay33
Here is an excerpt from the book I reprinted on the Reformation in Italy:

An Observantine monk, preaching one day at Imola, told the people, that it behoved them to purchase heaven by the merit of their good works. A boy, who was present, exclaimed, “That’s blasphemy! for the Bible tells us that Christ purchased heaven by his sufferings and death, and bestows it on us freely by his mercy.” A dispute of considerable length ensued between the youth and the preacher. Provoked at the pertinent replies of his juvenile opponent, and at the favourable reception which the audience gave them, “Get you gone, you young rascal! (ex-claimed the monk) you are but just come from the cradle, and will you take it upon you to judge of sacred things, which the most learned cannot explain?”—“Did you never read these words, ‘Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings God perfects praise?’” rejoined the youth; upon which the preacher quitted the pulpit in wrathful confusion, breathing out threatenings against the poor boy, who was instantly thrown into prison, “where he still lies,” says the writer of the letter, which was dated on the 31st of December, 1544.

Your story about your brother made me think of this. He was lucky this happened in America when we still operated under the Constitution. He probably should have charged the priest with battery. Your grandmother would have had herself thrown in the fire along with her Bible if this incident would have happened back in reformation times.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Your story about your brother made me think of this. He was lucky this happened in America when we still operated under the Constitution. He probably should have charged the priest with battery. Your grandmother would have had herself thrown in the fire along with her Bible if this incident would have happened back in reformation times.

Sadly that is very true, again these are the bad fruits Jesus talked about.

There were some groups that tried to make a break from Catholicism and even if they didn't get everything right, I admire there determination to at least try to serve God in a better way, and I am sure God views all people that do that the same way. They do the very best they can with what they have, and the fact that they are so heavily persecuted shows they were on the right track.

Such an examples are
Waldenses
John Wycliffe
William Tyndale
Justin Martyr
Michael Servetus

On 24 October Servetus was sentenced to death by burning for denying the Trinity and infant baptism. When Calvin requested that Servetus be executed by decapitation rather than fire, Farel, in a letter of September 8, chided him for undue lenience. The Geneva Council refused his request. On 27 October 1553 Servetus was burned at the stake just outside Geneva with what was believed to be the last copy of his book chained to his leg. Historians record his last words as: "Jesus, Son of the Eternal God, have mercy on me."

This man is a true hero and martyr for the true christian faith.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Speaking of the Catholic Religion, it's also VERY ritualistic, and promotes all kinds of weird superstitions. My mom died when I was very young. My family made my siblings and I wear dark colored clothes ONLY for 5 years after her death. We were forbidden to wear any kind of bright colored clothes. It's no wonder I love black so much, I own a lot of black clothes, it's kinda sad when I think about it



Oh you mean ritualistic like the OT priest and their customs?

The church doesn not teach to make you wear clothes that are black after death, this is again false catholics making this up. They should be excommunicated.




Now Jddewey the carnivals that they practised are not sinful. Mardi gras is, that's the difference.

Like I said Vatican 11 is a false council of the end times and of antichrist, which you will see shrotly and the old church would not condone such an event.

they completely changed caholic teaching vatican 11 did.


Freemasonic infiltration which saints have predicted also, they new age, new world order which is why JP2 had world religious meetings.

One world order, just like a global currency.



This has all been planned.



and to the guy who said

" beware of wolves in sheeps clothing "


Do you not understand what I have been saying the whole time? Communist and freemaosns have literally infiltrated the church since the early 1900s, in their own words, to make use of it.

those preist who don't know their bibles and so forth, (are) not I can garuntee you, real priest.


Hypocrites exist in every religion, but just because they are there doesn't make the priesthood or the church itslef false.


take Padre Pio for example. A real priest who gave his entire life for God and suffering, had the stigmata for 50 years and was victimized his whole life.

Those are the real fruits of the saints.


peace.

Miriam I don't know how to use the qoute system which is why I backoff after a while in debates.

please teach me! And make me some Italian food afterwards. Love italain food.


I'm teasin...

reply to post by JesusisTruth


Hey Jesusistruth

I thought I would try and help you out with quoting pieces of text…



Step 1: (see above)
First you need to highlight the piece of text you want to quote, followed by right clicking and copying it.



Step 2: (see above)
Next you need to click on the “Insert Quoted Text” button.



Step 3: (see above)
After clicking on the “Insert Quoted Text” button a box will appear in the left hand corner.

Step 4: Now paste the text you copied in step 1 into the box (Explorer User Prompt) in the left hand corner and click on the ok button.



The final result should look like this (see above)

Note you can avoid all these steps by just adding the quote commands around a piece of text you wish to highlight e.g. [ quote] Text goes here [ /quote]

I hope this helps


- JC

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Here is another excerpt from the book on the Reformation in Italy:

The letter addressed by Melanchthon to the senate of Venice in the year 1538, and from which a quotation has already been made, shows that the antitrinitarian tenets had then gained admission into that state. “I know, (says he) that very different judgments have always prevailed in the world respecting religion, and that the devil has been intent from the beginning on sowing impious doctrines, and inciting men of curious and depraved minds to corrupt and overthrow the truth. Aware of the dangers arising from this to the church, we have been careful to keep within due bounds; and while we have rejected certain errors more recently introduced, have not departed from the apostolical writings, from the Nicene and Athanasian creeds, nor even from the ancient consent of the catholic church. I understand there has lately been introduced among you a book of Servetus, who has revived the error of Samosatenus, condemned by the primitive church, and seeks to overthrow the doctrine of the two natures in Christ by denying that the Word is to be understood of a person, when John says, ‘In the beginning was the word.’ Although my opinion on that controversy is already in print, and I have condemned the sentiment of Servetus by name in my Common Places, yet I have thought it proper at present to admonish and obtest you to use your utmost exertions to persuade persons to avoid, reject, and execrate that impious tenet.”

The book gets into the controversy because the people who were labeled "Socinians" seem to have their beginning at Venice and from followers of Servetus. The author, M'Crie, includes this in a section of the book where he goes into the various reasons why the Reformation ultimately failed in Italy. My opinion is that the people who started the protests against the corruptions of the church became successful in Germany and decided it was because they were right. Once they found themselves in position of authority, they decided they had established a good working system and did not allow any descent from it. The Italians are of a different nature and instead of falling in line, they would rather consider the finer points and find their own opinions. The leaders of the Protestant movement doomed it to stagnation and doomed the movement in Italy to complete failure by attacking those who questioned their own authority as stridently as the papists attacked protestants in general.
The sticking point seems to have been something I have read in this thread. If Jesus was not properly God, in the respects that they consider God to fit their own notions of what God has to be, then Jesus' sacrifice and blood could not be effective for salvation.


[edit on 3-4-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
JD dewey the church does not teach pagansism, this is false. Secondly God predicted a church with a governing body to spread throughout the entire world with a sacrafice that would last until the end of time.

and create souls like the one in my signature from communion which is predicted all the way back to daniel. And infact will be taken away during antichrist reign.

but anyways, this is the ONLY church to spread throughout the world, existed well before protestantism and before the bible was put together by the same church.

Paganism is everywhere in catholicism. Read Deuteronomy 12:29-32 which explains God's hate of mixing paganism with His doctrine.
Catholicism created christmas and easter from different forms of paganism. Jesus wasn't even crucified on "good friday" and friday afternoon to sunday morning isn't considered 3 days and 3 nights.... the only real sign of Jesus' messiahship. These so-called chrisitan holidays revolve around the pagan sun gods and fertility goddesses. Every tradition we celebrate in these holidays has it's origins in paganism.

As far as your heirarchy goes in catholicism, read over Matthew 23:2-12 and then answer me why the church finds it needful to contradict the exact words of Christ? The servant is the master and the master is the servant. God is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of men, men are the head of women. That's the only chain of command going on in christianity in all reality.



[edit on 2-4-2009 by JesusisTruth]

Here's something to look at, for people who like to subscribe to the Nicene Creed. Here's a link to an interesting article about it and what came out later when it was changed by the Pope. It is called the Filioque Clause and it has to do with the Holy Spirit. www.newworldencyclopedia.org...
Interestingly enough, when the catholics and the orthodox get together, they conveniently just leave out the whole Filioque clause out of the Creed! So, how worthless is this creed when you can just hack off the part about the Holy Spirit if it seems a little controversial? Completely worthless. So remember this next time you recite this creed in church, the Pope himself does not recite it, at least completely. Kind of like people who recite the pledge of allegiance an do not say the "under God" part. How much of a pledge is that if you can just pick and choose what part you want to say. Poohy, is what I say! Put not your trust in men.


[edit on 9-4-2009 by jmdewey60]