is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

Originally posted by holywar
reply to post by Aliengurl

 

I have nothing against pyramids, they are very nice geometric forms, it would be nice though if we can stay on topic, that's all.

I want to know how the "pyramid" pertains to Russell and why it's a bad thing? Please explain, i really want a Jehovah Witness perspective.

reply to post by edsinger



There are things I actually agree with in the Nicene Creed. Here is where it messed up and laid the grown work for the development of the trinity:

"And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made."

There is direct contradiction when it says: "begotten, not made"... what???

how is one begotten, how do you beget something?

beget:

1. (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).
2. to cause; produce as an effect
3. to cause to exist or occur; produce

Related forms:
be⋅get⋅ter, noun

Synonyms:
1. spawn, sire, breed, father. 2. occasion, engender, effect, generate.

and the Bible is specific enough to call him "only-begotten", which means one of his kind. Jesus is the DIRECT creation of Jehovah God. Everything else was created by God THROUGH Jesus.

In my opinion this council his a HUGE conspiracy, just look at the confusion it has promoted. It's got people worshiping a false God.

Originally posted by holywar

Sorry but what does Charles T. Russell have to do with the threads topic?

Absolutely it does. he was a MASON! Oh yeah and also a great, no make that the greatest of the Modern Greek Scholars....

[edit on 25-3-2009 by edsinger]

reply to post by edsinger


That means nothing to me, I don't care what Charles T. Russell might or might have not been.

What I do care about is the truth. The truth is that there is ONE and ONLY true God.... his name is Jehovah, and that's the same God Jesus serves and worships. I care to inform people of this truth, so they can see how Satan is misleading them with his lies.

PEACE!

The why did Christ claim to be God then? Why did he come to die? Why did he have to die? Then whats the purpose for his visit?

And I DO CARE about Russell, he has caused many to stray, many. Lost sheep.

This is the LAST site I would expect to see someone defending a MASON....

[edit on 25-3-2009 by edsinger]

Originally posted by edsinger
The why did Christ claim to be God then? Why did he come to die? Why did he have to die? Then whats the purpose for his visit?

[edit on 25-3-2009 by edsinger]

Jesus NEVER claimed to be God.

Why did he come to die? John 3:16 sums it up nicely:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." KJV

Yes, God gave his only-begotten Son, Jesus, "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14)

For atonement to be possible, there had to be a REAL death involved, not a fake one. Can atonement be possible if two parts of God were still alive?

Can God die?,

How would you explain 1Corinthians 15:20-28?



[edit on 25-3-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by edsinger


Russell has nothing to do with this thread, you are deflecting from the issue at hand, and he died many years ago.

You deny a basic truth that God's son died and ransomed mankind, if you believe in the trinity. Because then Jesus REALLY didn't die for a few days to pay the ransom, did he? Do you understand what that means for you, to deny the ransom?

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

This is not a trick question or anything, but I have one concerning my own Church's beliefs. Did Jesus raise himself from the dead, or did the father raise him? What we tend to believe is that the Father called him and he rose on his own power. I was never sure what to think of that, exactly.


[edit on 26-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by edsinger
This must be a conspiracy nut......Once and for all this subject needs to be looked at again.
For those that choose to think of Christ as a Super Angel or such need to read. Its all over the Bible if you LOOK. GOD WITH US, not big time super angel among us...
For humans sin, the price of sin is death and eternal punishment. The price had to be made. The old testament talked and was a precursor to the coming of the Messiah. He was that sacrifice, you know the Redeemer that Job spoke of? Anyhow lets look at Nicea in a non conspiracy forum aspect. Heck most here have probably not read it anyway, the creed that is. the summation of the conference.
(yes some walked out....some argued, eastern Christianity split from Western in some ways)
And no Catholic does not mean Roman in this case....
So discuss just what is a false doctrine here...
H20= ICE = STEAM = WATER
Same thing different form, yet the SAME thing.
Christ had a purpose to come live as man, sinless. To be a servant and sacrifice....so that ALL could be saved.

I have read it, not lately. I devoted a few years studying the topic but that was twenty years ago. This was before the INTERNET was known so I had to order books through my local book store. I spent a lot of money and collected what was readily available at the time that concerned this whole debate about the nature of Christ.
True, the Athanasian Creed could be considered a summation of what was decided at Nicea. I would not. I would think of it as more of a P.R. ploy to kind of smooth over the more hideous aspects of what whent on there. They turn the Bible upside down by claiming that the Father and the Son are coexistent, co-equal, and co-eternal and they manufactured a term to describe God's "substance" that does not make itself evident in the English translation of the Creed. They manipulated a Greek word and redefined it fit their own purposes.
These were cruel and evil persons who are representative of the history of the "catholic" church, from that day forward. They basically treated the Christians who did not bow to their authority the way they later treated the Protestants who came to realized they had no authority.


[edit on 26-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

Now I don't claim to be a biblical scholar, and I've never read through the entire Bible, but the couple of passages that I occasionally have come across leaves me confused as to how Trinitarians believe what they believe.

Now for some groundwork, we can say the trinity is "The Father, the Son, and The Holy Spirit, being 3 as well as 1, in the literal sense".

Now taking this definition in mind (tell me if something is wrong with it, but I don't think so), could a trinitarian please explain these to me? I realise there are other passages that say other things, but could you concentrate on these passages (unless the other passages pertain to an explanation of these ones). I'm not trying to be arrogant, or show up anyone, I just want to be clear on the Trinitarian aspect of things. Here are the quotes:

"The Father and I are one"
"I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god."
"The Father is greater than I"
"The LORD is greater than all other gods"

The first one implies that Jesus and the Father are one (but leaves out the Holy Spirit).

The second implies Monotheism.

The 3rd implies that the Father is greater than the Son

The 4th implies that the LORD is greater than all other gods (false or otherwise).


These quotes imply that one part of the Trinity is "Greater" than the other parts. How is this possible when the 3 are the same thing? Also, another thing for my own clarification, did Jesus ever reference God as YHWH? Or was it always "Father"? Was there a difference made between the two by Jesus?

Another thing, is the trinity defined as "3 parts of the same thing" or rather "3 parts that are the same thing"? Because if the second meaning is true, the "Father is greater than I" quote really doesn't make sense, but if the first meaning is true, then the "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god" quote doesn't make sense. It is confusing!

An explanation that would clear up these points would be greatly appreciated.

[edit on 26-3-2009 by babloyi]

Originally posted by edsinger
For humans sin, the price of sin is death and eternal punishment.

its just proof that you are not actually reading the bible.

rom 6:[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

whoops, no mention of eternal punishment.

matt 7:[13] Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

so when do you recieve eternal punishment? is it after you are destroyed?

phil 3:[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

there is that nasty d-word again

2 thes 1:[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

so, punishment apparently is destruction.

read....

Originally posted by edsinger
This passage does not teach that Christ was created. The word "firstborn" means that which is "first or chief" in rank. In the Old Testament, Ephraim (which was a synonym for all Israel) was said to be God's "firstborn."

you do realize that it still conflicts with the trinity doctrine.

if god and jesus were infact the same person, then naming jesus god´s ¨first or chief¨ would still imply that jesus is below god. which is something the trinity does not teach. it teaches that they are equal.

talking about jesus -

proverbs 8:[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
[23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
[24] When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
[25] Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
[26] While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
[27] When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

¨brought forth¨, hmmm...

rev 3:[14] And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

[edit on 26-3-2009 by miriam0566]

Originally posted by Aliengurl

Originally posted by holywar
reply to post by Aliengurl

 

I have nothing against pyramids, they are very nice geometric forms, it would be nice though if we can stay on topic, that's all.

I want to know how the "pyramid" pertains to Russell and why it's a bad thing? Please explain, i really want a Jehovah Witness perspective.

russell held the belief that 1914 was a significant year.

using scriptures from daniel, you can pinpoint 1914 as the end of the ¨gentile times¨

coincidentally, certain measurements from the great pyramids can show the same number (dont ask me how i dont know)

most JW´s would likely dismiss it as a coincidence.

the problem is that because his tombstone is a pyramid, people make all these connections with Illuminati and masonry, a connection that russell himself denied.

later, after russell´s death, symbolism was cut out of the publications. alot of the church symbols like the cross and such were dismissed as pagan.

detractors today use that past to say that JWs are this masonic cult.

Originally posted by edsinger

Originally posted by holywar

Sorry but what does Charles T. Russell have to do with the threads topic?

Absolutely it does. he was a MASON! Oh yeah and also a great, no make that the greatest of the Modern Greek Scholars....

[edit on 25-3-2009 by edsinger]

actually, it has nothing to do with the trinity

Originally posted by edsinger
The why did Christ claim to be God then? Why did he come to die? Why did he have to die? Then whats the purpose for his visit?

And I DO CARE about Russell, he has caused many to stray, many. Lost sheep.

This is the LAST site I would expect to see someone defending a MASON....

[edit on 25-3-2009 by edsinger]

jesus claimed the opposite...

The Bible Says that Jesus Denied He is God

Luke 18:19 Jesus spoke to a man who had called him “good,” asking him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Matthew 19:17 And he said to him, “Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus did not teach people that he was God. If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

This is not a trick question or anything, but I have one concerning my own Church's beliefs. Did Jesus raise himself from the dead, or did the father raise him? What we tend to believe is that the Father called him and he rose on his own power. I was never sure what to think of that, exactly.

god raised him


Acts 2:24
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 2:32
This Jesus hath God raised up....

Acts 4:10
Jesus Christ ... whom God raised from the dead....

Acts 13:30
But God raised him from the dead.

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
... his Son ... whom he raised from the dead.

interesting points regarding jesus´nature with god.

1. Bible Says that God is not Man

The Bible says:

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man…”

Hosea 11:9 “...For I am God, and not man...”

Jesus is called a man many times in the Bible:

John 8:40 “…a man who has told you the truth…”

Acts 2:22 “Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.”

Acts 17:31 “He will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom He has appointed”

1 Tim. 2:5 “…the man Christ Jesus.”

God is not a man, but Jesus, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, was a man, therefore, Jesus was not God.

2. The Bible Says that God Is Not a Son of Man

Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man...nor a son of man…”

The Bible often calls Jesus “a son of man” or “the son of man.”

Matthew 12:40 “…so will the son of man be…”

Matthew 16:27 “For the son of man is going to come…”

Matthew 28 “…until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.”

Mark 2:10 “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority…”

John 5:27 “…because He is the son of man.”

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the “son of man” is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6; 2:8; 3:1; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25).

Since God would not contradict Himself by first saying He is not the son of a man, then becoming a human being who was called “the son of man”, he would not have done so. Remember God is not the author of confusion. Also, human beings, including Jesus, are called “son of man” specifically to distinguish them from God, who is not a “son of man” according to the Bible.

3. The Bible Says that Jesus Denied He is God

Luke 18:19 Jesus spoke to a man who had called him “good,” asking him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Matthew 19:17 And he said to him, “Why are you asking me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus did not teach people that he was God. If Jesus had been telling people that he was God, he would have complimented the man. Instead, Jesus rebuked him, denying he was good, that is, Jesus denied he was God.

4. The Bible Says that God is Greater than Jesus

John 14:28 “My Father is greater than I.”

John 10:29 “My father is greater than all.”

Jesus can not be God if God is greater than him. The Christian belief that the Father and son are equal is in direct contrast to the clear words from Jesus.

5. Jesus Never Instructed His Disciples to Worship Himself or the Holy Ghost, but God and God Only

Luke 11:2 “When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.”

John 16:23 “In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.”

John 4:23 “The hour cometh and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

If Jesus was God, he would have sought worship for himself. Since he didn’t, instead he sought worship for God in the heavens, therefore, he was not God.

6. The Bible Says that Jesus Recognized, Prayed, & Worshipped the Only True God

Jesus prayed to God with the words:

John 17:3 “…that they might know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”

Jesus prayed to God all night:

Luke 6:12 “he continued all night in prayer to God.”

…because:

Matthew 20:28: Just as the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve.

How did Jesus pray to God?

Matthew 26:39 ‘…he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father…”

Even Paul said:

Hebrews 5:7 “During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.”

Who was Jesus praying to when he fell on his face with loud cries and petitions? Was it himself? Was Jesus crying in tears to himself pleading to be saved from death? No man, sane or insane, prays to himself! Surely the answer must be a resounding ‘No.’ Jesus was praying to “the only true God.” Jesus was the servant of the One Who sent him. Can there be a clearer proof that Jesus was not God?

7. The Bible says that the disciples did not believe Jesus was God.

The Acts of the Apostles in the Bible details the activity of the disciples over a period of thirty years after Jesus, may God praise him, was raised to heaven. Throughout this period, they never referred to Jesus as God. For instance Peter stood up with the eleven disciples and addressed a crowd saying:

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.”

For Peter, Jesus was a servant of God (confirmed in Matthew 12:18):

Acts 3:13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.”

Acts 3:26 “God raised up his servant...”

When faced by opposition from the authorities, Peter said:

Acts 5:29-30 “We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus...”

The disciples prayed to God just as they were commanded by Jesus in Luke 11:2, and considered Jesus to be God’s servant,

Acts 4:24 “...they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’”

Acts 4:27 “...your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.”

Acts 4:30 “…of Your holy servant Jesus.”

8. The Bible says that Jesus was God’s servant, chosen one, and beloved.

Matt. 12:18 “Behold, My servant, whom I have chosen, in whom My soul is well pleased.”

Since Jesus is God’s servant, Jesus can not be God.

9. The Bible says that Jesus could not Do Anything by Himself.

John 5:19 “The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.”

John 5:30 “I can of mine own self do nothing.”

Jesus did not consider himself equal with God, rather he denied doing anything by himself.

10. The Bible says that God performed miracles through Jesus & Jesus was limited in what he could do.

Matt. 9:8 “But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.”

Acts 2:22 “a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst.”

Acts 10:38 “…he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.”

If Christ was God, the Bible would simply say that Jesus did the miracles himself without making reference to God. The fact that it was God supplying the power for the miracles shows that God is greater than Jesus.

Also, Jesus was limited in performing miracles. One time when Jesus tried to heal a blind man, the man was not healed after the first attempt, and Jesus had to try a second time (Mark 8:22-26). Once a woman was healed of her incurable bleeding. The woman came up behind him and touched his cloak, and she was immediately healed. But Jesus had no idea who touched him:

Mark 5:30 “At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, ‘Who touched my clothes?’”

Mark 6:5 “He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.”

Quite obviously, someone with such limitations can not be God. The power of miracles was not within Jesus.

11. The Bible says that at times of weakness angels strengthened Jesus; God ,however, does not need to be strengthened.

Luke 22:43 “An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him [in the garden of Gethsemane].”

Mk. 1:13 “Then the devil left him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.”

Mark 1:13 “And he was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to him.”

Men need to be strengthened; God does not because God is All-Powerful. If Jesus had to be strengthened, he must not be God.

12. The Bible says that Jesus wanted God’s will to be done, not his own.

Luke 22:42: “not my will but Yours be done.”

John 5:30 “I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.”

Are some members of the coequal Trinity subservient, and less than equal, to other members? Even though they have different wills (“I do not seek my own will”), do they obey without question the others’ commands (“the will of Him who sent me”)? Jesus admits to subordinating his own distinct will, yet according to the Trinitarian doctrine they should all have the same will. Should one of the triune partners have to forgo his own will in favor of the will of another member of the Trinity? Should not they all have the exact same will?

13. The Bible says Jesus regarded God’s testimony as separate from his own.

Jesus regarded himself and God as two, not “one.”

John 8:17 and 18: “I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father.”

John 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”

If Jesus was God, He would have not have regarded God’s testimony as separate from his own.

14. The Bible says that Jesus is subordinate to God

1 Corinthians 11:3 “Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.”

1 Corinthians 15:28 “When he has done this, then the son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

Since Jesus was subordinate to God, he was not God.

15. Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom & learning, but God is All Wise & does not (need to) learn

Jesus grew in wisdom, but God is all wise:

Psalms 147:5 “Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.”

Luke 2:52: “And Jesus increased in wisdom.”

God does not need to learn, but Jesus learned.

Heb. 5:8 “Although he was a son, he learned obedience…”

16. Bible says that Jesus had limited knowledge, but god’s knowledge is infinite

Mark 13:32 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the Father.”

Since Jesus, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, did not know, he was not all-knowing, and therefore, he cannot be the God whose knowledge is all-encompassing.

17. Bible says that Jesus was tempted, but God cannot be tempted

Heb. 4:15 “tempted in every way—just as we are”

James 1:13 “for God cannot be tempted by evil”

Since God can not be tempted, but Jesus was, therefore, Jesus was not God.

18. Bible says that Jesus’ teachings were from God, NOT Jesus himself

John 7:16 “So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.”

Jesus could not have said this if he were God because the doctrine would have been his.

19. Bible says that Jesus died, but God cannot die

The Bible teaches that Jesus died. God cannot die. Romans 1:23 and other verses say that God is immortal. Immortal means, “not subject to death.” This term applies only to God.

20. Bible says that Jesus lived because of God

John 6:57 “I live because of the Father.”

Jesus cannot be God because he depended on God for his own existence.

21. Bible says that Jesus’ powers were given to him

Matt 28:18 “All power is given unto me.”

God is all-powerful, no one gives God His powers, otherwise He would not be God because He would be weak. Therefore, Jesus could not be God.

22. Bible says that Jesus was taught & commanded by God

John 8:28 “As my Father hath taught me, I speak these things,”

John 12:49 “The Father, who sent me, he gave me a commandment.”

John 15:10 “I have kept my Father’s commandments.”

No one can teach God, otherwise God cannot be All-Knowing and would owe His teacher. Since Jesus was taught and commanded by God, Jesus cannot be God himself. The teacher and the student, the commander and the commanded are not one.

23. Bible says that God made Jesus “Lord”

Acts 2:36 “God has made this Jesus... both Lord and Christ.”

“Lord” is used in many ways in the Bible, and others beside God and Jesus are called “Lord.” For example:

1) property owners (Matt. 20:8)

2) heads of households (Mk 13:35)

3) slave owners (Matt. 10:24)

4) husbands (1 Pet. 3:6)

5) a son called his father Lord (Matt. 21:30)

6) the Roman Emperor was called Lord (Acts 25:26)

7) Roman authorities were called Lord (Matt. 27:63)

“Lord” is not the same as “God.” “Lord” (the Greek word is kurios) is a masculine title of respect and nobility used many times in the Bible. If Jesus were God, then for the Bible to say he was “made” Lord would make no sense.

24. Bible says that Jesus was lower than angels

Hebrews 2:9 “But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus.”

God, the Creator of angels, can not be lower than His own creation, but Jesus was. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

25. Bible says that Jesus called the Father “my God”

Matt. 27:46 “My God, My God, why have You forsaken me?”

John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Rev. 3:12 “… the temple of my God… the name of my God… the city of my God… comes down out of heaven from my God.”

Jesus did not think of himself as God, instead Jesus’ God is the same as ours.

26. Bible says that God cannot be seen, but Jesus was

John 1:18 “no man has seen God at any time.”