is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

reply to post by Oolon


Thanks!

nothing wrong with being flexible and adaptable... right?. There has NEVER been any ONE way of getting the message across. The point is getting it across. Most people now days would answer an e-mail more than they would their doors.

Jehovah God will make sure his message gets across one way or another!!!!

reply to post by holywar


I like your post. I've been preaching on here about the false doctrine of "trinity" quite a bit. I always explain that the Holy Spirit is just the essence or power of God working in the world. I always explain Jesus and God in a similar system as a monarchy kingdom with the King, Prince, Knights, Noblemen, etc. I call my concept the "Godhead" which most people would call the "trinity." In my case, God is the head of the family, Jesus is the Prince/Firstborn Son, and we are the children of God. In this sense, Jesus can be "A God" while still ruling under the leadership of THE GOD. When we become part of the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth, we will in a sense be gods ourselves. In this context, I'd call us all spirit beings when in the Kingdom. Good post. I'm not a JW, but my beliefs have a lot of similarities such as the lack of a christmas or easter celebration (both pagan in origin) yet I celebrate God's Holy Days commanded in Leviticus 23 and celebrated by Jesus and the first century church. I also don't believe in your 1914 theory either. Like I said though, we have a lot in common with our beliefs. I am Judeo-Christian/Church of God (non-pentacostal). Good post!

It was my understanding that the idea of the "Trinity" was conceived and made canon during the Council of Nicea, where the divinity of Jesus was put forth, etc.

Hello! I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I put a video together that I would like to share about a "central doctrine" of the christian faith. This is a VERY touchy subject, so I'm sure there will be a lot of people that will say bad things about my religion or about the JW's

I have no wish to say "bad things" about JW, but I'm very curious...
According to the Bible verse, it's only 144000 that will be saved, and they must be virgin males descended from the first 12 tribes of Israel.
What incentive is there for female JW's?
What incentive is there for non-virgin males?
Neither group gets in (unless you depart from scripture).

Not a slam, seriously, I'm curious.

First of all, the Trinity is also identified in Hebrews.

Father and Son Identified:

Hebrews 5
For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

and then God the Father calling his Son God.

Hebrews
But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

and further...the Son yet again.

Hebrews 4
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father."
6And he says in another place,
"You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."

And in regards to the Holy Spirit...

Hebrew 2:4
God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

In regards to John 1 coming into question, Ill take a lesser known tact.

On March 31st 2005, I too heard the words come to me in a fashion and order to that of John. An experience that altered my life.

It was said to me...

In the beginning there was the Word.
The Word in the beginning was Time.
Time began and the Word was begun.

At that time, I didnt even know what the Word was...

The Words of John are surely inspired. Gods own revelation to myself is that confirmation and a validity to John 1. But then again, as Jesus said, long ago..you dont even believe your own scriptures, why should you believe me?

I once had a dream, where I saw three beings. Each of like mind, yet separate from each other.

Peace


[edit on 23-3-2009 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by Gazrok
Neither group gets in (unless you depart from scripture).

book of revelation is a series of visions. so sometimes accepting something as a symbolism is not ¨departing from scripture¨

first, its not only 144,000 that get saved. chapter 7:9 also says that a great multitude are saved too.

second, virgin can also mean chasteness. a state of spiritual cleanliness. these "virgins" would serve god in without blemish from worldly doctrine or tradition

2 cor 11:[2] For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

paul here is talking to the congregation. likely this included women and those who were married and had had sex before.

The Beast is a world power system and riding on the back of the Beast is the Great Whore that murders the true believers and offers a golden cup, full of abominations and fornication.
The world order supports the woman arrayed in scarlet and purple. They have a mutually supportive relationship.(or more of a codependency) The world is trampled by the feet of the Beast and we can not help but be affected by it as we can not avoid living on this earth. We can refuse the cup offered by the whore who rides on its back. If we accept what is in her cup, we become partakers in the destruction of the world order and do not take part in God's order, about to be put into affect.


[edit on 23-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

A little topic drift from the original post, back on topic.

I have found, many people I have talked to don't believe in "The Trinity" as taught by the clergy in Christendom, more like a duality with God/Jesus as one, the Holy Ghost or Spirit is often dismissed as something else elusive and unknown, it has something to do with God but many are unsure. But they are sure that God is Christ.

This leads to a morphed belief that was actually never really taught.

Since the Holy Spirit hasn't been addressed yet in this thread as part of the trinity I thought I would talk about that.

The Holy Spirit is not alive as in it's own sentient being, it doesn't think or have feelings. Think of it as God's force or power.

To illustrate it, lets use electrical power, you can't see the power or current itself, but you see the results of it's power and the supporting infrastructure that it uses.

1)God is like this gigantic nuclear power plant with unlimited energy.(the power source) The same power he used to create the universe
Isaiah 40:26
“Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing."


2)The Holy Spirit is like electrical current generated by God. The power medium for carrying the Holy Spirit to individuals(electrical wire & cables) is reading the bible and mediating on it & even associating with fellow Christians.
Hebrews 4:12
"God's word is living and active. It is sharper than any two-edged sword and cuts as deep as the place where soul and spirit meet, the place where joints and marrow meet. God's word judges a person's thoughts and intentions."
and
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


3)Perhaps organizations that have acted in a supporting role distributing and printing bibles act like the electrical towers that support the wire and cables.
Matthew 28: 19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit;


4)At the end of the line is us the individual, we can activate the Holy Spirit the same way a person flicks on a light switch or plugs in a electrical device to a wall outlet, with a sincere personal prayer to God using his personal name.
See www.belowtopsecret.com...

He doesn't answer every prayer, but he does hear every one of them.
For example if you pray for 1 million dollars, forget it, that prayer is heard, but it won't be answered.

If however you pray for wisdom to know how to please God, or understand the truth of the bible, that type of prayer God will be more inclined to perhaps respond to, activating his Holy Spirit to make it happen via some form of regular communication.

Of interest too is that Christians once they have actually accessed the Holy Spirit can actually effect it's transference.
Ephesians 4:30
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
It would be like we did something that God hates, and our actions amount to the flipping off the main electrical power to your residence.(life)
And until we make amends with God by stopping what we are doing and saying sorry and meaning it to God, or the people we hurt, Holy Spirit will not flow back to us.

A bible example of that is the first King of Israel, King Saul, he had God's Holy spirit, then he lost it.

[edit on 24-3-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 24-3-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 24-3-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Beautifully put blue jay!

And yes, this other "God", Holy Spirit, must really feel left out in the whole trinity equation, it's like "he" gets the ugly step-child treatment. It just goes to show that this doctrine naturally crumbles apart because it's just not true.

Peace!

I was alone when I created the universe. Who else was with me?
I was alone when I died on the cross. Who else was with me?
I alone am fighting against the sin of the world, working through each individual on a spiritual level in the hearts of me. Who else is with me?
Who am I? I am God. Do you know me? Yes you do. I am the Father from whom all existence proceeds. I am the Son, who's work on earth as a human being ransomed you from condemnation. I am the Holy Spirit that speaks to you in a still small voice as your conscience to persuade you to refrain from sin. Am I an individual personality in each of these aspects? Yes I am. How can that happen, since normal people can not do such a thing? I am God.

[edit on 24-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

As a JW, I would suggest that you research the history and translation of your watchtower bible......Its translations of the greek are VERY weak and misleading.

Sorry mate, that is an incorrect statement

really?? Hmmm it would seem that a mason can translate better than all Biblical scholars from the 1st century on then?

Well, a short search found this:

Randolph O. Yeager: "Only sophomores in Greek grammar are going to translate '...and the Word was a God.' The article with logos, shows that logos is the subject of the verb en and the fact that theos is without the article designates it as the predicate nominative. The emphatic position of theos demands that we translate '...and the Word was God.' John is not saying as Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of teaching that Jesus was only one of many Gods. He is saying precisely the opposite." The Renaissance New Testament, Vol. 4 (Renaissance Press, 1980), p.4.

OR

Donald Guthrie: "The absence of the article with Theos has misled some into thinking that the correct understanding of the statement would be that 'the word was a God' (or divine), but this is grammatically indefensible since Theos is a predicate." New Testament Theology (InterVarsity Press, 1981), p. 327.

Check the Link for many more..... but in summation,

Who are these scholars? Many of them are world-renowned Greek scholars whose works the Jehovah's Witnesses themselves have quoted in their publications, notably Robertson, Harner, and Mantey, in defense of their "a god" translation of John 1:1! Westcott is the Greek scholar who with Hort edited the Greek text of the New Testament used by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeager is a professor of Greek and the star pupil of Julius Mantey. Metzger is the world's leading scholar on the textual criticism of the Greek New Testament. It is scholars of this caliber who insist that the words of John 1:1 cannot be taken to mean anything less than that the Word is the one true Almighty God.

LI NK

It is a KNOWN FACT that the NWT is grammatically challenged. They will NOT debate it in public.

I would be worried about basing my faith on a Mason's translation. Given the fact that even PRE Nicene thought never translated it "a god".

As for the Divinity of Christ, I will save that for a later post.

Originally posted by holywar
Hello! I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. [...] "Is trinity true?"

Split and conquer. God demands, Jesjuh research and the Holyspirit suffers alone and shares his love, always taking the weak part's side, Satan interrogating and accusing, Miakhael defending Israel, Gavreel explaining the wonders of Egypt, Uriel with his sword by Edien and Raphael the craftsman. Raziel the wize knowing madjick and reason, knowing how to spell scientific dogma, Sephaneel (and what he is willing to suffer *wheep* knitting the tabernacle, Azasiel displaying his weapons.... I mean, how can you put anyone before God, the Father? Trinity, Dragon, Lamb? I go vith the gohead, the father of all living creatures, the original idea. No trinity will not as much as cut a sign in my lamb! Over my dead body, I'd die for a common house cat given the circumstances. God is one, and he hates people who call him Jehova. Honestly, it has no root in our language, the name is constructed by man, God's name is Jah(r)-veh(i) E(i)lo(r)h-iym (more or less, he answers like a curious kid anyway). Trinity=666=polyteism=adultary=betrail=defeat=dragonsbait

[edit on 24/3/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]

really?? Hmmm it would seem that a mason can translate better than all Biblical scholars from the 1st century on then?

This is a little off subject, but since you brought it up would this have anything to do with him being a mason? I mean what is up with the pyramid at his grave site?





www.findagrave.com...

[edit on 24-3-2009 by Aliengurl]

OK so Jesus named his father some holy ghost and the idea of a son and his breethern and all the sisters and the inborne enemy to explain off his divinity and distance from man.... So what? What turns this in to a trademarked beliefsystem which results in everlasting torture if you don't let this overthrow you and no matter what the manmade church will do to you, you are already dead through Shauwl Paulus in the exact same system sending you to HELL when your body dies with thousands of Roman Catholic 666 flees and flies circling your body with all the worms of Senefer eating you up. Roman Catholic Church, just like other systems are schemes for damnation made to extend the powers of this world and trunch the day of the Princes' just revenge resulting in even more carnage and horror -- every year the third world grows, and every day the Romanised threat against their existance grows with it. 500 yrs. ago a third of the world would be some millions, today it's billions. Who was the better shepherd? Jesju wanted judgement 2000 yrs. ago, I want it now, or ten years ago1

Other places used and I will use the NASB, a VERY LITERAL version.
(bolds are mine)

Joh 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
Joh 10:35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
Joh 10:36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Joh 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Note the Jews knew EXACTLY what he was saying, hence they wanted to stone Him.

another

Joh 14:8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
Joh 14:11 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Joh 14:13 "Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

another

Joh 8:53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
Joh 8:55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
Joh 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
Joh 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

Again they pick up stones. why so many doubt this I have no idea, the Jews understood EXACTLY what he was claiming. He was not the Messiah they wanted or were looking for and yet they wanted to stone him?? Why such a reaction again?

another

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
Heb 1:2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Heb 1:9 "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
Heb 1:10 And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Note: God is the Creator correct? Whom is identified here as the Creator?

Joh 5:16 For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
Joh 5:18 For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Joh 5:20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
Joh 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
Joh 5:22 "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
Joh 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

God in the Flesh, sinless, walked amongst us, yet we denied him...

Mar 2:1 When He had come back to Capernaum several days afterward, it was heard that He was at home.
Mar 2:2 And many were gathered together, so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.
Mar 2:3 And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic, carried by four men.
Mar 2:4 Being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic was lying.
Mar 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Mar 2:6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,
Mar 2:7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"
Mar 2:8 Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, "Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 "Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven'; or to say, 'Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk'?
Mar 2:10 "But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" --He said to the paralytic,
Mar 2:11 "I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home."
Mar 2:12 And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this."

Again the Jews knew whom he was claiming to be....no doubt here.

Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

The 'him' here is obvious, and to what does the Alpha and Omega mean? Whom has the power over death but God?

Also the disciples knew...

Joh 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Well this one needs no comment....God in the Flesh.

I have more....

Blah blah bla. Haven't you read what Solomon and Jesju has to say about idiots who quote and quote and make their prayers longs as the people in the East (well, Cain is of the loving and remembering kind and has remembered every living being from his oath since day one, Hinduism's gods are the children of Cain, Buddhism is his philosophy and instrument and original Jesju-minded messianic Judaism is his way out...)......... Roots only grow up to the ground, trees take over, but does trees make roots or does roots? Is it the leaves which turn into soil instead? How can you choose betwen them? It's a plant, groing in the mock of us, in the air that fills us and with the sun and isolation the atmosphere gives it,and of course there are bees and farmers, consumers and artists and so on, how can you generalise among them or choose among them? We live and act and do good and terrible thngs, and not even that is God, so why say this and that and THE son is GOD? I'd say eat the whole apple and plant a tree with your arse....

Shall we?

Php 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
Php 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Lord = God


I tell you what, here is a good site that has verses and information that you can look into the watchtower's misconception about Scripture.

LINK

Yeah its biased towards one position, but the explanations and verses might give you some insight.


and another

LINK

And I will leave you with another......a DIRECT quote.

Mat 1:22 Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
Mat 1:23 "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

There you have it, GOD WITH US...

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Blah blah bla. I'd say eat the whole apple and plant a tree with your arse....

An yet yo didnt read them...why?

2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
2Th 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
2Th 2:9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
2Th 2:11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Consider yourself deluded......

as for your apple............nah.......I wont bite and those that know me here at ATS will be shocked...

I didn't read your mass because it's based on the Pharicee Shauwl "the Least in Heaven" Paulus who was a Roman conspiring Pharicee smokescreener to bring deludge to early Christendom and turn everyone I know away from true worship and ackowledgements, except for what he knew and they knew, in which he excelled, like any other scribe or pharicee. Mind you, Jesju was a Pharicee Rabbi clinging to Genesis and Mosjeh only, the movement at the time was what turned into the Talmud aa couple of centuries later.... Jesju was a scribe, a rabbi belonging to the Pharicee party. In his posse he had Selots and Esseens, greek mided skeptics and the iscariout, mind you his childhood's best friend whom he trusted everything.

reply to post by edsinger


You have your quotes, but I have some too that go against yours, so we will let the reader decide.

Thomas Winter considers the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (part of the NWT project) as “highly useful” toward mastery of biblical Greek.[35] Winter relates that the translation "is thoroughly up-to-date and consistently accurate.”[36]

Hebrew and Greek scholar Alexander Thomson wrote: “The translation is evidently the work of skilled and clever scholars, who have sought to bring out as much of the true sense of the Greek text as the English language is capable of expressing. ... We heartily recommend the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, published in 1950 by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society.”[34]

Charles Francis Potter has stated about the NWT: "Apart from a few semantic peculiarities like translating the Greek word stauros, as "stake" instead of "cross," and the often startling use of the colloquial and the vernacular, the anonymous translators have certainly rendered the best manuscript texts, both Greek and Hebrew, with scholarly ability and acumen."[32]

Professor Benjamin Kedar[1], a Hebrew scholar in Israel, said in 1989: “In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible.”

Edgar J. Goodspeed, translator of the Greek “New Testament” in An American Translation, wrote in a letter dated December 8, 1950: “I am interested in the mission work of your people, and its world wide scope, and much pleased with the free, frank and vigorous translation. It exhibits a vast array of sound serious learning, as I can testify.”

As for trying to defend John 1:1, study a little Greek, and then tell me what you think, if you want to debate this, you better get up to speed on your Greek, at least in this particular area.

Coptic Greek

Actually John 1:18 answers John 1:1 and some bible get that mixed up too.
Notice I don't even quote from the NWT

International Standard Version (©2008)
No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known.

King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

American King James Version
No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

American Standard Version
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him .

Bible in Basic English
No man has seen God at any time; the only Son, who is on the breast of the Father, he has made clear what God is.

Douay-Rheims Bible
No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Darby Bible Translation
No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

English Revised Version
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Webster's Bible Translation
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Weymouth New Testament
No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.

World English Bible
No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

Young's Literal Translation
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.


I will state again the Trinity is false doctrine imported from pagan theology, it is without question part of the great apostasy Christ foretold would happen after all his Apostles died.

The main issue with people that believe in the Trinity is that they have a deep emotional attachment to that specific piece of theology, they love it, and love is blind to glaring faults at times.

I have presented history and language that proves it's wrong, and pointed out the nature of emotional attachment that can blind a person to logic, there is not much more that can be said.

[edit on 25-3-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Originally posted by edsinger
really?? Hmmm it would seem that a mason can translate better than all Biblical scholars from the 1st century on then?

ahh... come again? what were first century scholars translating?

and what was masonry have to do with it?

Randolph O. Yeager: "Only sophomores in Greek grammar are going to translate '...and the Word was a God.' The article with logos, shows that logos is the subject of the verb en and the fact that theos is without the article designates it as the predicate nominative. The emphatic position of theos demands that we translate '...and the Word was God.' John is not saying as Jehovah's Witnesses are fond of teaching that Jesus was only one of many Gods. He is saying precisely the opposite." The Renaissance New Testament, Vol. 4 (Renaissance Press, 1980), p.4.

sorry, mr yeager is biased. any person who even has a basic knowledge of coptic, mr yeager included, would understand that the passage is rendered "a god".

the second theos is not the predicate nominative BECAUSE of the use of the article.

even in english this is true. you might make a circular logic statement like "god is god". the second god is the predicate nominative. you would not say "the god is god"

the article "ton" is placed exactly because there is a contrast that is being presented. if the second theos was the predicate nominative, the "ton" would have been omitted.

Donald Guthrie: "The absence of the article with Theos has misled some into thinking that the correct understanding of the statement would be that 'the word was a God' (or divine), but this is grammatically indefensible since Theos is a predicate." New Testament Theology (InterVarsity Press, 1981), p. 327.

absolutely rubbish.

"the moon is not the same as other moons."

according to mr guthrie, we are only talking about one moon

It is a KNOWN FACT that the NWT is grammatically challenged. They will NOT debate it in public.

I would be worried about basing my faith on a Mason's translation. Given the fact that even PRE Nicene thought never translated it "a god".

pre nicene scriptures were never in english. so your argument is moot.