Is Israel Trying To Screw The Mid East Or Are They Just Stupid!

Does anyone other than me think Israel are purposely causing trouble in a time when the entire region (not just Israel-Palestine, but Iraq too) and alot of the Muslim world are feeling a little opressed and anti Jew/American...

With the recent assasinations of Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi and further back of Sheikh Yassin (Hammas leader and Former leader/Spiritual leader/founder) Israel is causing more turmoil amongst Palestinians and also all over the Islamic world... Although most Muslims dont support terrorism, they do support the Palestinian cause and israels actions is bound to cause more borderline fundamentalists to take up arms and become radicals.

Although i do see the advantage of doing these assasinations while the world is distracted they are bound to cause alot of vent up anger to be unleashed. I feel Israel know that the US is on their side and are taking the opportunity to be pricks when the world is watching Iraq. The more hamas leaders Israel kill the worse the conflict will get. Killing religious leaders will not subdue the population, all it does is invoke anger. Both funerals (Yassin and al-Rantissi) had huge turn-outs, and many of those in attendence would probably die to avenge their heroes deaths.

Now not wanting to sound anti-semetic but does anyone else feel that Israel are stupid, not only to murder such highly regarded palestinians, but to do so at a time where Arab/Islamic - Western/Israeli relations are at such a low point. It just seems their adding fuel to the fire...

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by John bull 1]

I can't help but disagree completely. The targeted killing of terrorist leaders is a very good thing.

Take for example OBL. Do you believe sending a hellfire up OBL's ass is a valid military objective for the US? Also, would the assassination of OBL be beneficial for the US in the long run?

For me, and the government of the US, the answer to both questions is an unequivocal yes. The reasons are complex and varied, and unfortunately, best illuminated through examples and real-world "case-studies".

If you would like to examine the question in the abstract, we can do so, however the public domain has plenty of past examples that elucidate my point, and i recommend you (edit: or we) start there if you seek enlightenment on the subject matter.

If you find yourself of the conviction that assassinating OBL is valid, and a Hamas leader is not, i suggest you think long and hard about the precise nature of this dichotomy and explain it to me, clearly and concisely, since any such reconciliation would, if operable, be very welcome on my part.

Perhaps you are suffering from a constrained and myopic world-view. If this is the case, let me try and help you understand a crucial aspect of Israel's foreign policy: Israel does what it does because it appears to be best for Israel. Similarly, you will find that the US does what it does because it appears to be best for the US. The US wants to vaporize OBL for obvious and well-defined reasons. These reasons are not nearly as obvious and well-defined to those making decisions in France, Russia, or Israel for example. Similarly, Israel eliminating Hamas leaders is considered a critical objective domestically (within Israel) and seems to not be worth the associated problems to other peoples, i.e. Egypt, Syria, and you.

So no, to put it simply, Israel is not out to cause trouble for troubles sake, at least no more than we would be, should we ever manage catch OBL taking a squat in a field.

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by Cascadego]

I think everyone can appreciate the need for the Isrealis to protect themselves from Palestinian terrorists, but how can they claim this as their motives when they so consistently make the situation worse with their treatment of the Palestinians and their assinations. I guess you cannot expect anything better when Isreal is being run by a war criminal. .

___

It wouldn't make sense to wait until the tensions in the area eased up, would it? Then Israel would be accused of stirring up the bees nest just when things were getting better.

Rantisi vowed violence when he took over Hamas. Maybe if he had offered peace and negotiation instead, he would still be alive. He suffered the consequences for his actions.

Hamas is also affected negatively; they have a new leader but want him to remain anonymous as long as possible.
_____

And of course, in 3 weeks when the Mossad puts a laser-designator on the new "secret" leader of Hamas and this leader becomes a flowery burst of iron-scented perfume we will hear of how Israel is targeting civilians, etc.

Frankly, Israel should keep popping Hamas heads over there to their hearts content. Better to have a leaderless and disorganized enemy and some bad-press in my opinion than recieve no recognition for your restraint and leave your enemies command and control intact.

.... they have a new leader but want him to remain anonymous as long as possible.

Not quiet enough, eh?
New head of Hamas in Israel's sights

The appointment of Dr Mahmoud Zahar, 53, was kept secret as he joined tens of thousands of Palestinians at the funeral of Dr Rantissi.

Little past info on him:
In Their Own Words: Hamas Leaders

Israel has also targeted, but failed to kill Dr. Mahmoud al-Zahar. (Sept. 10, 2003.) Before the attack on al-Zahar, he was quoted in the New York Times praising the March 2002 Passover attacks against Israel:

�Forty were killed and 200 injured � in just two operations,�al-Zahar said with a smile.� (April 4, 2002.)

Al-Zahar once explained to the BBC that �all Israelis are militants ... [there are] no civilian Israelis.� (Oct 3, 2001)

seekerof

Originally posted by specialasianX
Does anyone other than me think Israel are purposely causing trouble in a time when the entire region (not just Israel-Palestine, but Iraq too) and alot of the Muslim world are feeling a little opressed and anti Jew/American...

That last line there is a big reason behind what is happening in Israel. Keep in mind that Israel is surrounded by the Muslim world. That, coupled with the fact that dealing directly with 'rogue' leaders (and by 'rogue' I mean any leaders who go against the grain of their government/society) has meant, for many many years, instrumenting a very public assassination, has formed the way Israel faces opposition.

PM Sharon and the Israel Gov't probably believe that because they are such a small country (not to mention the Gov't and Jewish people there appear to whole-heartedly believe their assassinations are 'right'), they must show, by force, that they will not tolerate widely-known terrorist groups and activities in their country.

I would also like you to keep in mind that sentencing all crimes to varied jail times (with the few exceptions of death sentences that are given), is a very western mode of thought. No, jailing itself is not western in origin, but according to Encyclopedia.com: "By the end of the 18th cent. imprisonment was the chief mode of punishment for all but capital crimes." ( www.encyclopedia.com... ). So before then, most parts of the world that were deemed 'uncivilized' were subject to such common practices termed 'eye-for-an-eye' and death.

But getting back to your original statement, no I don't think they're being stupid for what they're doing, but I do think they are taking advantage of the Iraq situation and taking the oppurtunity to eliminate leaders they deem are a threat.

Personally I think they have a better idea of how to handle the situation than us in this department.

Kill the terrorists. Assassination is much better than blanket bombing.

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
Personally I think they have a better idea of how to handle the situation than us in this department.

Kill the terrorists. Assassination is much better than blanket bombing.

Agreed. The only thing is that their intel is actually taken seriously.

Personally, I don't know what to believe anymore.

First I hear on tv news that Israel wants peace, and the other side was just going along with it but stirring up #e behind Israel's backs. Then I hear the Israeli gov, are the ones stirring the pot because they believe they are the righteous ones, so they contintue to kill innocent civilians, torture em, ect...

I don't know what to believe, i'm just taking a neutral position here, everybody seems to be lying these days to cover their tracks..
I just don't know... And I don't think any of you should claim to know 100% of whats going on either, and it's ignorant to say that people should be killed.. That's inhumane, all parties are guilty of murder, and all parties seem to think it's ok for them to do it but the opposer's, well, thats just wrong.. It's a bloody fukcing mess, and it's just going to continue because everybody has their self righteous attitudes, and nobody can claim any wrongdoing. You can only bang your head against the wall so many times, as they say, but nobody seems to be stopping.

Peace is easy. Did you ever notice when suicide bombers stopped going into Israel that all the killing on both sides stopped? Now that there is a US backed plan and the wall is almost finished both sides should leave well enough alone. But when some wanker comes out and says "I'm the new hamas terrorist leader and we will kill as many Israel civilians as we can than I think with the history that's already there Israel has every right to take it as a serious threat and should respond. Like I've said before, what if Mexico wanted Texas back and they started sending Suicide bombers into CA or even over to NY or ILL or KS. Would you still feel the same if than the US started taking out the people setting up and ordering the bombings?

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by J0HNSmith]

I believe that the main reason behind the new wave of terrorism in the United States is due to the U.S. and it's funding of Isreal's military, sending them quite modern weaponary which is then used to attack the Arab backed Palestians.

The terrorism in Europe is due to Europe's support against terrorism which to the Arabs is a war against Islam.

Everything seems to connect here, we never had this major terrorism stuff going on before Isreal began to really step up on attacks in that region.

The constant attempts to spread unwanted Western values and democratic forms of government is also ticking off the Arabs. There society and religion is simply not compatible with democracy and western values.

When you begin messing with foreign countries/cultures you must be ready to accept the consquences that can often ensue.

Then you have the U.S. media focusing not on the facts, but on how they love the US occupation of Iraq. Yet you have 2-4 soldiers dying per day, countless counter insurgents... and a country which has worn out it's welcome in Iraq, billions upon billions of dollars being wasted, instead of being spent on border security. (Why can't they take the 300,000 or so troops and put them on the Mexican border? Is it me or to the politicans are throwing a wild one with this, purposely allowing massive illegal immigration for certain personal political purposes.

I'd feel alot safer if they put more protection on the border, I am tired of hearing reports of border patrol agents being fired upon by illegals and the Mexican army.

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by RedOctober90]

[Edited on 19-4-2004 by RedOctober90]

Since Israel has Hamas on the run, they need to continue the fierce destruction of their leadership. To show these bastards that being a terrorist will only get you killed. Its like a little child shooting at you with a BB gun and the much stronger advesary shooting back with a 306 sniper rifle. Eventually your enemy will "get it" that there is no winning through violence. IF THEY WOULD JUST SAY LETS TALK. NO MORE VIOLENCE NO MORE BLOODSHED. I am sure that Israel would agree to talk instead of precision killing of the people that have vowed themselves to kill not only the jewish people but the jewish state of Israel.

Well, considering what Hitler did to the Jews, you would of thought Israel would of respected life a bit more.

No, they chose war and develope the means to destroy there planet....hmm the chosen race? chosen for what exactly?

Ok i just had a huge long post reply to his which i lost... Man that sucks... i was writing it for ages... so sorry if this one is sub-standard...

First and foremost i see a huge difference in Osama and the Hamas leaders, Hamas are defending the palestinian land from an occupying force, and although Osama is essentially fighting for the same cause, he's attacking the USA and the occupied lands arent his homeland. And now Israel have pledged to kill Hamas leaders in exile in other countries (syria), kill arafat (which they promised the US they wouldnt do, but who cares its Israel they can do anything) and also to murder Hezbollah leaders (for the record hezbollah is recognised by the US, Israel, Australia and very few other nations as a terrorist group sydney morning herald 20/04/04)

It seems to me that everytime israel does anything (Murdering Hamas leaders, Building the wall, Bulldoaing houses etc etc) the international community frowns down on their actions (but never condemn as they have a powerful friend). Why is Israel allowed to continue on like this, not only unchecked, but with military and financial aid from the USA. If feel the USA supplying Israel will cause problems (i mean MORE problems) in the future. Kinda rigs a bell doesnt it? The USA supports a tyranical state then a few years down the line the state they upport turns their back on the USA (doesnt ring a bell? can you say Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan... say them slowly... theres more too)...

The biggest issue on the world stage right now (terrorism and phony wars against said terrorism) has stemmed from Israels occupation of the Palestinian territories. What gives Israel the right to thses lands? Their sacred to the Jews? Newsflash their sacred to muslims and christians too. In fact the Israelites left that land a couple of millenia ago... what gives them the right to march in and demand it back (through blowing up hotels and other terrorist actions in the early 20th century... hmmm whos the terrorists now???). In my eyes Israel are as much terrorists as Hamas, the difference is Israel is a state and has hi tech weaponary... so i guess that makes it ok then.

And when tensions are high they go off and make things worse! Better now than when things cool down a bit? How about better never and try to give peace a chance? How about not stealing land? How about not killing 20 people to get to one possible suicide bomber? How about listening to the rest of the world before they use force to get you to listen? How about NOT violating UN resolutions? Dont you think these ideas work better than annoying an already annoyed people? If they kill the Hamas leadership more people will step up for the roles... kill them? more will come... the more they kill the worse the situation gets. As the 'legitimate' country in this situation why dont they take responsibilty and make the steps towards peace?

If the US doesnt put Israel in their place someone else will, and that someone else may then come along and put the USA in its place too... ah one can only hope...

For the record i dont support terrorism which is why i dont support Israel.

Originally posted by specialasianX
Ok i just had a huge long post reply to his which i lost... Man that sucks... i was writing it for ages... so sorry if this one is sub-standard...

First and foremost i see a huge difference in Osama and the Hamas leaders, Hamas are defending the palestinian land from an occupying force, and although Osama is essentially fighting for the same cause, he's attacking the USA and the occupied lands arent his homeland. And now Israel have pledged to kill Hamas leaders in exile in other countries (syria), kill arafat (which they promised the US they wouldnt do, but who cares its Israel they can do anything) and also to murder Hezbollah leaders (for the record hezbollah is recognised by the US, Israel, Australia and very few other nations as a terrorist group sydney morning herald 20/04/04)

It seems to me that everytime israel does anything (Murdering Hamas leaders, Building the wall, Bulldoaing houses etc etc) the international community frowns down on their actions (but never condemn as they have a powerful friend). Why is Israel allowed to continue on like this, not only unchecked, but with military and financial aid from the USA. If feel the USA supplying Israel will cause problems (i mean MORE problems) in the future. Kinda rigs a bell doesnt it? The USA supports a tyranical state then a few years down the line the state they upport turns their back on the USA (doesnt ring a bell? can you say Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan... say them slowly... theres more too)...

The biggest issue on the world stage right now (terrorism and phony wars against said terrorism) has stemmed from Israels occupation of the Palestinian territories. What gives Israel the right to thses lands? Their sacred to the Jews? Newsflash their sacred to muslims and christians too. In fact the Israelites left that land a couple of millenia ago... what gives them the right to march in and demand it back (through blowing up hotels and other terrorist actions in the early 20th century... hmmm whos the terrorists now???). In my eyes Israel are as much terrorists as Hamas, the difference is Israel is a state and has hi tech weaponary... so i guess that makes it ok then.

And when tensions are high they go off and make things worse! Better now than when things cool down a bit? How about better never and try to give peace a chance? How about not stealing land? How about not killing 20 people to get to one possible suicide bomber? How about listening to the rest of the world before they use force to get you to listen? How about NOT violating UN resolutions? Dont you think these ideas work better than annoying an already annoyed people? If they kill the Hamas leadership more people will step up for the roles... kill them? more will come... the more they kill the worse the situation gets. As the 'legitimate' country in this situation why dont they take responsibilty and make the steps towards peace?

If the US doesnt put Israel in their place someone else will, and that someone else may then come along and put the USA in its place too... ah one can only hope...

For the record i dont support terrorism which is why i dont support Israel.

I completely agree with you on that. Israel does have the right to protect herself, but does fueling the conflict make it any better? I'm not supporting the Palestinean methods here either. To be, their both as bad as each other.

People, Heads-Up....
If a post that you are commenting/directing your comments to is directly above yours there is NO need to "quote" them....!

In all truth, entirely quoting a whole individual or members post is ridiculous anyhow. All you need to do is quote a sentence or two or the parts you wish to address, comment to, or debate.

If a post is directly above yours, again, there is NO need to quote the entire post.
Thank you.

[Edited on 20-4-2004 by Seekerof]

the idea that obl is fighting for the palestinian cause is a fallacy.
he hides behind the cloak of several nationalist struggles [chechnia, palestine , bosnia] to persue his fundalemntalist jihad.
Isreal since it's inception has been at war , feeling itself beseiged by it's neighbours .
The army plays a massive part in the body politic of the country .
Name an israeli premier that wasn't ex military ?
fact is if thier was a settlement in the conflict [after 50 plus years ] alot of people would be out of work .
so in my oppinion , no Israel is not stupid , they know exactly what they are doing .
they aren't tired enough of the conflict to end it .

Israel is trying to protect its self but Israel is the main reason why the middle east is in chaos. Israel policy on palestine is like something the nazi's would of done. Don't get me wrong, its awful seeing the aftermath of palestinian suicide attacks, but we don't see how many palestinian children Israel killing now do we?

Interesting what I see in this thread.
Israel's leader is a "war criminal", yet nothing is mentioned of what the terrorists' leaders are, including Arafat. Israel's leader is not solely to kill people but to run a nation. On the other hand, that is the prime fundtion of a terrorists organization and its leaders.

Israel doesn't respect life? Instead of destroying entire communities or larger groups of people, Israel goes out of its way to limit civilian casualties, targeting leaders. Where is the outcry whenever a busload of women and children are ripped to shreds by a homicide bomber?

SAX, Hamas is protecting "Palestine"? Trying to drive "invaders"? A little biased and historically challenged, aren't we? Judea and Samaria, the proper names of the area now called the "West Bank", belonged in Israel, was taken by Arab invasion, and then retaken by Israel at a later date. As you probably know, the Arabs feel that if they ever had the land, even if taken by force, it belongs to them from then on. Rewriting history, renaming land, even renaming themselves (the so-called "Palestinians"), whatever is necessary to get the land back.

The question is, when is it a good time for Israel to do what it takes to defend herself? Sure, there's enough of crap going on, but that isn't a problem for Israel. She has to deal with her own issues.