Olmec Giant Stone Heads Mystery Solved?

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
Slayer69,

M-130 has been shown to have made it to the new world around 50000 BC in North America only, but then peters out, also X but around 30000 BC.

Actually that wouldn't be entirely correct. Haplogroup X is split between X1 and X2. X1 originating around 30,000 BC, while X2 dates to around 21,000 BC. X1 AFAIK never made it to North America, while X2 did.

cormac

True. But it does show them in the new world earlier than previously thought either way

Another interesting Approach


Pre-Siberian American Aborigines

The name American Aborigines has been proposed by some archaeologists and anthropologists[who?] for hypothetical peoples who lived in the Americas prior to the arrival of the ancestors of the Paleo-Indians.

This theory is mainly supported by a number of archaeological finds, the dates and anatomical features of which do not fit into the more established Siberian migration or "Clovis First" theories. On the basis of that evidence, it has been speculated that those hypothetical American Aborigines could have been the descendants of Proto-Australoids or early East Asians coming to the Americas from various points of origin, including Oceania or southeast Asia. According to the hypothesis, this population was nearly exterminated or assimilated by the ancestors of today's Amerindians. However, this theory is still somewhat controversial, and the evidence is still being analyzed and published.

The proposed name collides with other established uses of "Aborigine" in American contexts; see American Aborigines (disambiguation).

Actually the whole page is amazing

One indication of possible American aboriginal settlement of South America came from cave paintings in Serra da Capivara National Park in Brazil. The paintings, which some archaeologists claim are older than the supposed date of arrival of the Siberian migrations to the area, are in a style not seen elsewhere in native American art. Researchers also point to both the physical traits of human remains found at the sites and tool-making technology as highly distinct from that associated with the Clovis culture.

The elaborate ritual costumes shown in the paintings exhibit similarity to those used by Australian Aborigines as well as those used by the Fuegians, the natives of Tierra del Fuego. According to some researchers, such as Walter Neves of the University of Sao Paulo, the Fuegians (who were reduced to only one woman as of 2004) may be descendants of intermixing between American Aborigines and American Indians, and therefore the last surviving remnants of the original settlers.

Monte Verde

Monte Verde is an archaeological site in south-central Chile that pre-dates the earliest known Clovis culture site of Clovis, New Mexico, by 1000 years. One layer at Monte Verde is estimated to date to 12,500 years before present, making it one of the earliest documented sites of human occupation in the Americas. At that time, the Bering Strait route was blocked by huge glaciers, suggesting that Monte Verde's inhabitants arrived long prior to dates associated with the Clovis culture, or via a different route. Another layer at Monte Verde has been radiocarbon dated to 33,000 B.P., although some archaeologists have questioned the methodology used to determine the older date.

Lagoa Santa

More solid evidence was found in the 1970s by anthropologist Anette Laming-Emperaire. In limestone caves of Lagoa Santa region in eastern Brazil, she unearthed the skeleton of a 20-year old, 1.50 m tall woman, later nicknamed "Luzia" (or Lucia), a reference to the famous African hominid skeleton known as "Lucy". Laming-Emperaire died before she had a chance to study it. Some 20 years later, Walter Neves found the skull in the Quinta da Boa Vista National Museum in Rio de Janeiro, and found that its measurements were quite different from those of the later peoples descended from the Siberian migration(s), and more similar to those of Australian Aborigines, Melanesians, and Negritos. This find, dated between 10,500 and 9,500 BC, was greeted with much skepticism by the anthropological community. The find was eventually confirmed by remains of over 70 individuals with similar characteristics found in that same region.[1] The authors of the study conclude that with the Monte Verde dates, their suggestion that "populations colonizing the New World may have crossed the Bering Strait earlier than previously thought" becomes more plausible, and that "the Americas could ultimately be seen as part of the first expansion of anatomically modern humans out of Africa, which started during the beginning of the Upper Pleistocene."

The Pericúes

Anthropologist Rolando González-José of the University of Barcelona demonstrated that the remains of the Pericúes, a tribe that lived in Baja California Sur until the 18th century, were morphologically more similar to the Lagoa Santa finds than to any other group tested, and both were closer to the Australian Aborigines and Melanesians than to Siberians. The explanation they give is that "Climatic changes during the Middle Holocene probably generated the conditions for isolation from the continent, restricting the gene flow of the original group with northern populations, which resulted in the temporal continuity of the Palaeoamerican morphological pattern to the present."[2]

Fuegians

The Fuegians of Tierra del Fuego at the extreme tip of South America are thought to be physically, culturally and linguistically distinct from other Native Americans.[citation needed] Some proponents of this theory suggest they may be the descendants of both the relative newcomers from Asia and American Aborigines.[citation needed] Both Tehuelches and Selk'nams practiced body painting in a way not unlike that of Australian aboriginals. In contrast to most other Amerindian peoples, Fuegians appeared to be taller than most Europeans[citation needed] (See: Patagon myth).

Kennewick Man

Kennewick Man, whose remains were found in Washington State, does not resemble today's Amerindians. Anthropologist Joseph Powell concluded in his official report that "Kennewick appears to have strongest morphological affinities with populations in Polynesia and southern Asia, and not with American Indians or Europeans in the reference samples."

Recent DNA Research suggests pre-Clovis migration Beringian for a single founding population

A 2008 article in the American Journal of Human Genetics states, "Here we show, by using 86 complete mitochondrial genomes, that all Native American haplogroups, including haplogroup X, were part of a single founding population, thereby refuting multiple-migration models." It also states that "Under our model, three periods that may define a date for the peopling of the Americas can be delineated: (1) the colonization of Beringia (because about half of it was “America” at that time) by the founding population; (2) the movement out of Beringia—characterized by the fast colonization of the continental Pacific coastal plain—south of the ice sheets; and (3) the more recent and more extensive colonization of inland continental masses."[4]

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Blackmarketeer

 

Interesting idea but we are forgetting the time line there are plenty of centuries between the two cultures and many things could have transpired look at our own modern history how much has changed in the past 300 or 400 years?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/716717fd4ac6.jpg[/atsimg]

SLAYER, your spamming! This chart is only as good as the context you took it out of. It has Monte Alban down as 200 to 700 AD. You can find another site thats will tell you Monte Alban flourished from 500BC to 200AD with 200Ad being terminal. So in a large way they are useless there is just a heck of a lot of disagreement of time frames.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Logarock
Ok on the opinions.


Here a good layout link of heads...

www.micahwright.com...

Very nice find, and thank you for that!

If I could back up for a moment, not that I actually have a solid opinion about the African connection, these heads do represent something other than the classical Mayan type.

ermm.... yes, because they're Olmec and not Mayan. That's as different as Hopi and Aztecs. Also, please recall that Mayans practiced head binding and head modifications... and lived over 600 years after the last of the Olmecs.

Hi Byrd. Yes I just said that becouse SLAYER suggested earlier that the Olmec heads looked like smashed Maya faces. He even posted some modern Maya pics. I dont think they are Maya myself just an answer to SLAYER.

WARNING!

SLAYER is tossing it into the proverbial fan and hoping some of it sticks.

Originally posted by Logarock

Hi Byrd. Yes I just said that becouse SLAYER suggested earlier that the Olmec heads looked like smashed Maya faces. He even posted some modern Maya pics. I dont think they are Maya myself just an answer to SLAYER.

I guess you have something personal against me?

Anyway It's all good I wont take it personally
The picture you're referring to was originally posted by Hanslune I just photo shopped it and said I photo shopped it to illustrate a point. Check your sources please.

Originally posted by Hanslune

I've been to that part of Mexico and that type of face isn't that unusual.




This is just one but if you look for tourist photos of faces in historic Olmec areas you'll get that same squat fat lips asian/native american look.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Logarock
WARNING!

SLAYER is tossing it into the proverbial fan and hoping some of it sticks.

OK Whatever.

To all of you who have U2U me
Yeah I know what you mean

reply to post by SLAYER69



No, nothing personal.


Mod Note: Excessive Quoting – Please Review This Link

[edit on Tue Mar 17 2009 by Jbird]

reply to post by SLAYER69


If by "them" you are referring to humans, I'm not sure how that could be true. Considering X2 originated in the Near East/Southwest Asia and according to the following link:

Coalescence time estimates based on HVS-I and coding region variation—17,900 ± 2,900 YBP and 21,600 ± 4,000 YBP, respectively (figs. 1 and 2)—are consistent with the range expansion of X2 around or after the last glacial maximum (LGM).

Origin and diffusion of mtDNA haplogroup X

That's a margin of error covering 15,000 YBP - 25,600 YBP or 13,000 BC - 23,600 BC. The oldest tools at Cactus Hill date to within that margin of error as do earlier charcoal deposits at the site. It would appear that they are contemporary or nearly so to the expansion of X2 into America. Even if the times are only near-contemporary, it doesn't appear that they are significantly so.

cormac

reply to post by cormac mac airt


Thanks cormac.
Bravo I'm still playing catch up.
Thanks that was a very informative link


I found this nifty page I thought maybe those of us who are not as well read as some are would enjoy taking a look at it Enjoy.

genographic.nationalgeographic.com...

reply to post by cormac mac airt




Interesting I was wondering when we could get to clovis.
I'm starting to lean towards the Solutrean theory


Yeah I know

I KNOW Wiki

North and South America

Haplogroup X is also one of the five haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas.[1] Although it occurs only at a frequency of about 3% for the total current indigenous population of the Americas, it is a major haplogroup in northern North America, where among the Algonquian peoples it comprises up to 25% of mtDNA types. It is also present in lesser percentages to the west and south of this area — among the Sioux (15%), the Nuu-Chah-Nulth (11%–13%), the Navajo (7%), and the Yakima (5%).

Unlike the four main Native American haplogroups (A, B, C, and D), X is not at all strongly associated with East Asia. The main occurrence of X in Asia discovered so far is in Altaia in South Siberia[2], and detailed examination[3] has shown that the Altaian sequences are all almost identical (haplogroup X2e), suggesting that they arrived in the area probably from the South Caucasus more recently than 5000 BP.

Two sequences of haplogroup X2 were sampled further east of Altai among the Evenks of Central Siberia[3]. These two sequences belong to X2* and X2b. It is uncertain if they represent a remnant of the migration of X2 through Siberia or a more recent input.

This relative absence of haplogroup X2 in Asia is one of the major factors causing the current rethinking of the peopling of the Americas. However, the New World haplogroup X2a is as different from any of the Old World X2b, X2c, X2d, X2e and X2f lineages as they are from each other, indicating an early origin "likely at the very beginning of their expansion and spread from the Near East".[3]

The Solutrean Hypothesis posits that haplogroup X reached North America with a wave of European migration about 20,000 BP by the Solutreans,[citation needed] a stone-age culture in south-western France and in Spain, by boat around the southern edge of the Arctic ice pack.

[edit on 17-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

This more for my benefit if nothing more than posting information I'm gathering for another post

PBS Coming to America

Tracing the Genes

MtDNA mutates at a certain predictable rate - it's like a clock ticking, but with the clock recording every tick. So it's possible to judge when distant populations originally diverged, based on how different the mtDNA they have today is. If a group of people splits up, some going east and some going west, mtDNA mutations found in the east but not the west likely originated after the group diverged. Count up the mutations and - knowing the rate at which they would have occurred - you can figure out when the family tree branched off. "You literally have a genetic clock," explained Douglas Wallace, a professor of molecular medicine at the University of California, Irvine.

Scientists categorize mtDNA into a number of so-called haplogroups, based on their similarities and differences. You can think of them as like blood types - they don't affect the way you live, but they can be identified at the molecular level.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/354fa8b2e518.jpg[/atsimg]

Map of various haplotypes
MitochondrialDNA (mtDNA) haplogroup testing led to the surprising hypothesis that some of the first Americans came from Europe thousands of years ago.

The conventional wisdom to explain the peopling of the Americas is that migrants crossed from northeast Asia to Alaska around 13,000 years ago to become the ancestors of today's Native Americans. But mtDNA analysis has revealed some unexpected links between Europe and North America. When scientists analyzed the mtDNA of a broad sample of living Native Americans, they found that about 97 percent had mtDNA from haplogroups A, B, C or D. These haplogroups are all present in modern day Siberia and Asia, so it makes sense that the forefathers of those Native Americans came from those regions. But the surprise was that about 3 percent of the Native Americans tested had mtDNA from a different haplogroup, called X. Some populations, such as the Ojibwa from the Great Lakes region, have a high concentration of X - 25 percent.

How did haplogroup X get to North America? Some X has been found in Mongolia, but it's definitely not common in modern Asia. It can, however, be found in about 4 percent of the present day European population. Genetic anthropologists suggest that the presence of X in North America points to an early migration westward from Europe. By looking at the various mutations within haplogroup X, scientists are able to use that "genetic clock" to estimate when those early Europeans would have arrived. Depending on how large a group they assume headed west, they come up with two time ranges - either between 36,000 and 23,000 years ago or between 17,000 and 12,000 years ago.

X definitely did not arrive in America with the European explorers of the last 500 years or so. European X and American X are different enough that scientists say they must have diverged thousands of years ago, long before the age of exploration introduced European genes to the New World. Scientists have also done some testing on pre-Columbian Native American skeletal remains from before 1300, and found haplogroup X in the same proportion it's present in modern Native American populations.

There's more work to do on mtDNA, in both the Americas and Asia. Critics argue that people with haplogroup X could have migrated eastward from Europe to Asia and then across the Beringia land bridge; their descendents in Asia could have subsequently died out, so we don't see their traces in modern populations. Scientists hope to answer this question by sequencing the Mongolian haplogroup X mtDNA to see if it's an intermediate form between European X and Native American X.



Geneticists have examined the Y chromosomes of Native Americans and the Asians who are presumed to share common ancestors with them. What they see are genetic similarities. Natives of southern Middle Siberia share Y chromosome haplogroups (called M45a and M3) with natives of North, Central, and South America. And other haplogroups (called M45b and RPS4Y-T) native to Chukotka, just across the Bering Strait from Alaska, are shared by indigenous people in North and Central America. These results point to two migrations, and since the people carrying M45a and M3 haplogroups penetrated further into the new world, as far as South America, they probably came over first.
Map of various haplotypes
Y-chromosome data suggest two major male migrations into the new world.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8b2d6e0b6000.gif[/atsimg]

The idea of two separate migrations fits nicely with the two migrations suggested by mtDNA studies. It seems likely that men bearing the M45a and M3 Y chromosome were traveling with women carrying A, C and D mtDNA. Based on the mtDNA dates, this migration probably occurred 20-30,000 years ago. Using similar reasoning, the second wave would have arrived in North America between 9,500 and 7,000 years ago.

I'm starting to lean towards the Solutrean theory

Personally I'm staying away from the Solutrean theory until someone can show that X2a (the New World subclade) can be found in Ancient France or Spain contemporary with the migration of peoples into the New World. Until then, just saying X2 (generically speaking) is meaningless as all the rest X2b, X2c, etc. are Old World.

cormac

reply to post by cormac mac airt


I went ahead and uploaded some videos regarding Clovis. I was only able to find parts 1 through 4 of a 5 part series
Here's #1 the rest can be found by clicking on the video when it's finished.


[edit on 17-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Is there a printed version? I'm on dial-up.

cormac

Just a PSA.

Let's take it easy on the huge quotes if possible , please.

The point is there is NO REASON to ever quote more than 3 paragraphs.
It's not Kosher and it's simply wasting webspace since it's already online at another site...Springer

reply to post by Jbird


Thanks will doo
I'm sorry for those of you who wish to watch the videos for some reason it's not uploading properly.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I am wondering if the Africans intermarried and interbred with the locals, would that be detectable after thousands of years? Puerto Ricans are a mixture of African, Native and Spanish peoples.

Just a question to add to the cauldron. I like all the additional information in the posts.

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I am wondering if the Africans intermarried and interbred with the locals, would that be detectable after thousands of years? Puerto Ricans are a mixture of African, Native and Spanish peoples.

Just a question to add to the cauldron. I like all the additional information in the posts.

Within a certain time period, yes. But we all came out of Africa, so ... yes... at some level there's genetic material that speaks of an origin in Africa.

Very good reply.

This thread as much as it has taught me with everyone's replies and links provided I feel has run it's course.


I'm posting a newer thread with regards to the lineage of Native Americans and the civilizations they developed hopefully later today. I'll edit this later to add the link stay tuned.

Later

Here it is enjoy
Thanks for your interests.
Ancient America Rocked

[edit on 19-3-2009 by SLAYER69]