Olmec Giant Stone Heads Mystery Solved?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Oops sorry about that Slayer, didn't mean to steal your thunder! I've been off working too much to read here at all the last two weeks---let me change track and leave the DNA to you !

Comments on the Afrocentric view of the Olmecs, this is addressed in the following article- I've posted the abstract of it below. It comes from

Current Anthropology, Volume 38, Number 3, June 1997, pp 419-441

In 1976, Ivan Van Sertima proposed that New World civilizations were strongly influenced by diffusion from Africa. The first and most important contact, he argued, was between Nubians and Olmecs in 700 B.C., and it was followed by other contacts from Mali in A.D. 1300. This theory has spread widely in the African-American community, both lay and scholarly, but it has never been evaluated at length by Mesoamericanists. This article shows the proposal to be devoid of any foundation. First, no genuine African artifact has ever been found in a controlled archaeological excavation in the New World. The presence of African-origin plants such as the bottle gourd (Lagenaria siceraria) or of African genes in New World cotton (Gossypium hirsutum) shows that there was contact between the Old World and the New, but this contact occurred too long ago to have involved any human agency and is irrelevant to Egyptian-Olmec contact. The colossal Olmec heads, which resemble a stereotypical "Negroid," were carved hundreds of years before the arrival of the presumed models. Additionally, Nubians, who come from a desert environment and have long, high noses, do not resemble their supposed "portraits." Claims for the diffusion of pyramid building and mummification are also fallacious. [1]

The full article

This is long and 'heavy' article but if you want facts, here they are

(ex tags)

[edit on Mon Mar 16 2009 by Jbird]

Thanks I'll read it a bit later
While your on
What info can you provide on
Valdivia and caral
I've seen all the videos they have on google and youtube
But not much there

Africans came before Columbus: Skeletal evidence of African Olmecs in Ancient America

Skeletal Evidence of African Olmecs

...In conclusion, the Olmec people were called Xi. They did not speak a Mixe-Zoque language they spoke a Mande language, which is the substratum language for many Mexican languages.

The Olmec came from Saharan Africa 3200 years ago.They came in boats which are depicted in the Izapa Stela no.5, in twelve migratory waves. These Proto-Olmecs belonged to seven clans which served as the base for the Olmec people.

Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).

The skeletal material from Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas and evidence that the Olmecs used an African writing to inscribe their monuments and artifacts, make it clear that Africans were a predominant part of the Olmec population. These Olmecs constructed complex pyramids and large sculptured monuments weighing tons. The Maya during the Pre-Classic period built pyramids over the Olmec pyramids to disguise the Olmec origin of these pyramids

A History of the African-Olmecs: Black Civilizations of America from Prehistoric Times to the Present Era

he place of origin of the pre-Columbian Blacks who inhabited the Americas has been placed in a number of geographical regions, including the Americas itself. Yet, based on the close similarities between cultural assets found in West Africa, particular during the ancient, pre-Christian Ghana Empire (3000 B.C. to 400 A.D.) and those of ancient Mexico, many anthropologists, historians and scientists such as Ivan Van Sertima (They Came Before Columbus, 1976), Alexander Von Wuthenau (Unexpected Faces in Pre-Columbian America), and Andrezej Wiercinski, the Polish crainologist who concluded that there was a significant ancient African presence in ancient Mexico. Studies conducted by anthropologists, historians and others on the Blacks of Olmec Mexico show cultural similarities not merely with ancient Ghana, but with West Africa in general. For example, Ivan Van Sertima’s quote of R.A. Jairazbhoy’s quote from the Quiche Maya book, the Titulo Coyoi, clearly points to a West African origin and influence for some ot the cultural contributions to Olmec artistic works which portray Black African types or Negritic features.

The Olmec writing system:
The Olmec writing system is unique. The Signs are similar to the writing used by the Vai people of West Africa. The Olmecs spoke and aspect of the Manding (Malinke-Bambara) language spoken in West Africa.

*snip*Mod Edit: Please Review the Following Link: Courtesy Is Mandatory

[edit on 16-3-2009 by Blackmarketeer]

Mod Note: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.

[edit on Mon Mar 16 2009 by Jbird]

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

Hanslune: from reading your posts on this forum you are nothing more than a troll. Keep your childish comments to yourself.

Hans: Oh you mean scientific comments compared to your made up stuff? LOL. Seriously blackmarketeer, this is a discussion board, trying discussing things.

Well you've changed direction I see and going for directly out of Africa instead of by way of Asia. Why did you abandonen your first idea?

So explain why their is no evidence for a nautically minded sub-Saharan civilization that shows evidence of having visited the off shore islands of West Africa? A person looking for the truth would be able to deal with that question.

In the link I post above for Sayer is a demonlishing of afrocentrism in regards to the Olmec, you might actually want to read it.

Having read some of Slayers work in other areas it is reasonable to believe he is simply having a row here. His idea about the smashed face artistic interpretation is well...very comical.

The fact that he even presents the idea is proof that a problem exists. In fact there is much in the artwork of the area that is problematic when taken at face value. Wow, I made a funny.

Anyway let us not lose sight of Slayers original postulation that the Olmec heads are artists representations of smashed faces. If true, this would suggest that the artists had a fairly high standard for insuring that art was representative. This is important becouse there exists in the area much art that represents races that are other than classic Mayan or Olmec. So if we could prove slayers hypothesis then it would go a long way in proving that apparent Asian and Caucasoid racial types represented in area artwork are indeed curate representations.


But! We need to bring in outside evidence that such grotesque disfigurements can result from prolonged smashing. So for this I would recommend american football before the application of the face mask. Many photos exist of the old gridiron heroes. Keep in mine that these faces must show that constant pounding produces and African effect. Well ok ok granted that the Maya do bare facial conditions originally that MAY lend to a pronounced African look after being pounded over a long period of time
So in the case of European American football players we shouldn't expect much of the African Effect but we can expect some broadening of the nose and face in general if Slayers African Effect can be shown. In fact we could call it the African effect although no actual African effect like in our Maya examples can be demonstrated.

Ok this first guy doesn't count becouse we know he is an american native and already looks like he might be related to the Olmecs. Yet he bares little resemblance to the extreme African features represented on the Olmec heads. At this point in his career anyway.

blog.kir.com...

Now here we see some ball players of European decent. There are some broken noses apparent but no African effect but it is early in their careers.

www3.familyoldphotos.com...

Here we do see some broadening of the nose but no African Effect.

www.profootballhof.com...

reply to post by Hanslune


Yes Sertima uses a good deal of abductive reasoning in his arguments as do sadly a number of defusionists. There are many that do not however. Sertima is just one of dozens of researchers that have made African cases for the Olmec heads and certainly doesn't stand alone as some sort of anomalous quirk.

In addition classic archeologist have also failed miserably in an interpretation of the larger body of evidence and are also guilty of isolating evidence outside of the whole to make a case.

Sertima is also a classic Afrocentric interpreter and lacks a broad knowledge of the development of civilization worldwide. For example he relies heavily on the Egyptian connection to central America, although this is not without merit, without realizing that classic Egyptian civilization was primarily a Mesopotamian offshoot.

Originally posted by Logarock
Having read some of Slayers work in other areas it is reasonable to believe he is simply having a row here. His idea about the smashed face artistic interpretation is well...very comical.

I have nothing to hide you may check out my history here. These are all the threads I have posted and started.

SLAYERS work

Originally posted by Logarock

The fact that he even presents the idea is proof that a problem exists. In fact there is much in the artwork of the area that is problematic when taken at face value.

Wow, I made a funny.

I have presented proof in the form of the original artwork with a researched hypothesis of what could possibly be the real reason behind such evidence and I have presented it as a theory nothing more!


[edit on 16-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Logarock

But! We need to bring in outside evidence that such grotesque disfigurements can result from prolonged smashing. So for this I would recommend american football before the application of the face mask.

Outside evidence?
What more do you need than the original artwork and findings of many other people. Remember this was speculation on my part supported by scientific facts!

The question those who support the "Negroid" hypothesis need to answer is basic genetics. They need to find and supply concrete DNA evidence to support their theories.

[edit on 16-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Logarock
Ok this first guy doesn't count becouse we know he is an american native and already looks like he might be related to the Olmecs.

Well he is native American but from the wrong location. I'll let the readers decide on how close his features match those of the stone heads of the Olmec and keep my opinions to myself.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5772c26c509c.jpg[/atsimg]

We all know that there are very distinct differences among native peoples of the Americas. Simply calling them Indians and throwing them into one lump is rather naive don't you think?

Well you've changed direction I see and going for directly out of Africa instead of by way of Asia. Why did you abandonen your first idea?

Where did get THAT from? I've said all along the Xi migrated thru Asia first, into the South Pacific / Polynesia before arriving at South America. Not only do the descendants of the Olmec have a high degree of African DNA suggesting where they originated from, there are the cultural similarities.

What I can't understand is the level of fear being displayed here that there might be an African connection to the Olmec. Africa has never gotten the proper respect as a cradle of civilization, in spite of everyone agreeing it was the birthplace of humanity. Hell, even the tourism sites acknowledge the African heredity: Mayatobasco.com

They display Negroid features, suggesting the presence of black Africans in the American continent at this time. DNA studies as early as 1972 have show that many remains of Olmecs and Maya contained African DNA. Other statues show Semitic features, suggesting contact with Mediterranean seafarers.

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Hanslune

 

Yes Sertima uses a good deal of abductive reasoning in his arguments as do sadly a number of defusionists. There are many that do not however. Sertima is just one of dozens of researchers that have made African cases for the Olmec heads and certainly doesn't stand alone as some sort of anomalous quirk.

In addition classic archeologist have also failed miserably in an interpretation of the larger body of evidence and are also guilty of isolating evidence outside of the whole to make a case.

I don't see how they fail miserably with the overwhelming proof of how the Olmecs saw themselves. Most experts will agree that the Stone heads are either Warrior Kings or Ball players.

You gave an interesting example of early American Football however those players did not play life or death games these Olmecs did. Nobody disagrees with that fact. Also not every football player gets his nose broken repeatedly Nor would they play that aggressively.

And as you pointed out those are Football players of European descent not Native Americans. The following pictures are from museums that clearly show more of an Asian influence which goes with known genetic markers of the native people of the Americas which clearly show known DNA traits.
mexicanart.info...

Olmec Head, made of volcanic basalt. The features of this figure and the colossal heads has led some to speculate on an African origin for the Olmecs, but DNA analysis does not bear this out.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b14200956686.gif[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/234ff106667c.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f27e2477d02c.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f3b2c5307147.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/007699753cbf.jpg[/atsimg]




[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6eb316c4b3b9.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ef75a4084da8.jpg[/atsimg]

Here is a profile of one of the Stone heads. It does not look very African to me
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3c827968c48b.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 16-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer


What I can't understand is the level of fear being displayed here that there might be an African connection to the Olmec. Africa has never gotten the proper respect as a cradle of civilization,

I agree the native people should get the respect they deserve for what they have accomplished. In this case Native Americans!

Caral

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/867c9a69ed30.jpg[/atsimg]

Caral: The Earliest Civilization in the New World
The Seeds of the Inca

Early in 2001, a site located on the Pacific coast of Peru which had been known for over a hundred years made headlines all over the world. The site of Caral and the cluster of eighteen similarly dated sites located in the Supe Valley included in what is now called the Caral-Supe Civilization are important because together they represent the earliest known urban settlement in the Americas--nearly 4600 years before the present.

By contrast, the Inca state rose during the 15th century AD; the Nasca Empire about 0 AD; Teotihuacan first flowered ca. 200 BC; Monte Albán about 500 BC; Chavín society 1000 BC; Olmec society 1200 BC. The culture represented by the Supe valley sites dates as early as 2600 BC, when Khufu was building the pyramids at Giza.

Originally posted by Teeky
As an African American I've always thought that the Olmecs were African just from looking at the pictures. But after seeing the pictures posted of the Natives with the broad noses and full lips makes me think that ancient Olmecs were Natives Americans.

But I also think that it might be possible that maybe Africans and Native Americans lived together in Ancient South America. Not to take away from the Natives accomplishments. My Grandmom is a Native American so I'm not biased as to who the Ancient Olmecs were. But excellent evidence presented.

Excellent!
I apologize for passing your post by. I think before we can go about making connections between ancient culture we need to first fully understand what was there completely and then try to connect the dots.

key phrase here
Pre-Clovis

Stay tuned!

Where did get THAT from?

Hans: From your links BM, they talk about that, you are one of the few people to make a claim of modern Africans going around the globe the long way and going to the Americas. Everyone else has them coming over directly, so when you post links to them as evidence that means you are supporting their position? You really need to read your own links BM.

I've said all along the Xi migrated thru Asia first, into the South Pacific / Polynesia before arriving at South America.

Hans: And when did this all occur? You also didn't answer why these great nautical explorers never went to the islands just off their own coasts - please explain such an oddity - oh and I'll just keep asking until you do.

Not only do the descendants of the Olmec have a high degree of African DNA

Hans: Put they don’t, you saying so doesn’t make it so. Remember that African blood came into the area after the 15th century. Amongst the 'heads' only 4 of the seventeen look vaguely "African". Why not put up pictures of all the heads.......

suggesting where they originated from, there are the cultural similarities.

Hans: Not compelling, all human civilizations and cultures have similarities

What I can't understand is the level of fear being displayed here that there might be an African connection to the Olmec.

Hans: Fear? LOL, you mean normal disagreement? Yep aren’t we allowed to disagree with you without you trying to pull a race card….indeed, LOL

Africa has never gotten the proper respect as a cradle of civilization, in spite of everyone agreeing it was the birthplace of humanity.

Hans: Making up stuff isn’t going to gain Africa more respect

Hell, even the tourism sites acknowledge the African heredity:

Hans: Yes they are repeating alternative and fringe pseudoscience – nothing like a tourist agency to provide hard evidence eh?

Hey BM, how come the Africans didn't take anything back to Africa from the Americas? Why no two way traffic? What happened to their naval technology - when the Europeans arrived the Native Americas were using canoes and balsa wood rafts -.......oh and guess what what sort of outposts were on the islands on the west coast of the Americas - the ones out of sight of land? Why were they unoccupied?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Well yeah, if those trying to prove a African connection cherry pick data, yep you can make any connection you want. Placed into context the data falls apart.

reply to post by Hanslune


I'm not into cherry picking I'm after the cold hard facts. With physical proof and DNA!

I'm still not discounting ancient sea traders but not colonizations. I think there is a much older civilization here in the Americas that has yet to be discovered or at least an unknown lost history, That we may have either over looked or not found yet or maybe even misidentified.