Black people 'less intelligent' scientist claims

reply to post by rhinoceros

According to you after getting the nice meal Jamal should "return to the level of intelligence that was ALREADY set by his genetics."

Well, people who are starving typically don't do as well on intelligence tests, do they?

Originally posted by Ben81
There is another scientist who claimed that (a local one from Quebec)

The Quebec College of Physicians has suspended and fined a psychiatrist and radio host who once told listeners blacks have low IQs.

Pierre Mailloux was suspended from his profession Friday as a psychiatrist for a period of two years and ordered to pay fines totalling $33,000 for racially charged statements that drew the ire of regulators.

Link

I think .. it is absurd to say such a thing
in every nationality .. some are very intelligent and others arent
but have other habilities to compensate

in my world .. EVERYONE is egual .. INTELLIGENT OR NOT

edit on 7/20/2011 by Ben81 because: (no reason given)

LOL - So I guess in Canada it is unethical to report scientific fact if that fact upsets people? It is comforting that the Canadian government regulators protect its people from hurt feelings. We do that here in the US as well with our hate speech laws. Can’t say things that are true if they hurt people’s ego’s and feelings.

Gotta love social progress!

Anyway, he did not claim that blacks were not equal in terms of humanity… which is your counter argument (straw manish at best).

He stated a fact. Blacks have lower IQ's of one standard deviation than whites. I hope the Mounties don't come for me too...

Where there is confusion because of human limitations of mind or ability you will see that humans project their own preconceptions or expectations upon the confusion to produce a more stable state. Scientists project modern consensus onto the greater unknowns. People project their own experiences. And so on. Anytime there is an issue of sufficient complication you will have multitudes of human factions that come to different conclusions based on their own shared memories and experiences.

Some argue that scientists have the best chance at being right, even though they too are projecting. I agree because the scientific method is very reliable. But they can be wrong and certainly will be as we progress further into the unknown and new theories better explain present phenomena than old ones because they also explain the things old ones don't.

So I'm arguing here that the question of where intelligence comes from and who has it is loaded with complication and thus there is a storm, a cloud of probability and projection all around.

It's here in this cloud that we'll all find we're prejudiced about something, somehow.

I personally think this finding is ridiculous. There are (intelligent) and (not so intelligent) people from every race on planet earth...common sense and observation ..tells us that.

[color=gold]

Many empires stood tall and fell
controlled the masses in living hells

Empires given to Each race
to see if they could clean up the place

Then it came down to the truth indeed
ALL work together for ALL to succeed

So 1 empire 2 empires 3 empires 4
All stood high yet fell to the floor

So intelligence of today has been matched in the past
amazing so many forget so fast

Not 1 empire stood up for the species it represented
Only stood for power and greed please listen

Nor power or greed is a sign of intelligence
for it only breeds starvation and pestilence

So why you all take shots at each others race
remember past empires and what sealed their fates

What IS intelligence and what is NOT
was not understood so the empires LOST

Lost more then they considered for their greedy ways
to the point where history almost WIPED THEM AWAY

So carry on amongst 1 another and try to find facts
Of who is more intelligent Asians, Europeans, Latin's or Blacks (SAPIENS SAPIENS)

in the mist its funny to see how the races interact
ALL carrying knives TO STAB EACH OTHERS BACKS

With data to suppress or oppress another's mind
what shall you all do when you meet the DIVINE?

NAMASTE*******
LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA



again what an unintelligent comment

Originally posted by caladonea
I personally think this finding is ridiculous. There are (intelligent) and (not so intelligent) people from every race on planet earth...common sense and observation ..tells us that.

If one race is indeed smarter than another on average then you would not want to place the same expectations upon each. Similarly, you would not have grade-schoolers compete against professional ball players, even though some grade schoolers might perform exceptionally well. Fairness is a doctrine that has limits, though. Winning and losing is fair if the game is fair. In th end, it might not be a bad thing to know the facts behind the emotions, the numbers behind the claims. The reason: so the 'game' can be made more fair and peace can be more predominant.

The quickest way to make war is to destroy one's trust in the game.

By distorting reality and not paying heed to it, we're only serving those who desire no fairness. Knowing the reality should not change what fairness means to us. It should only bolster it.

In all this though people should only be rewarded what they're due. They're not entitled. So this is about correcting for those who desire to exploit and to correct for those who feel entitled.

Notice in a game that exploiters are bad. This is because they bypass the rule system...

reply to post by jonnywhite

I don't see any reason to assume that "intelligence genes (alleles)" exist. If they did, then clearly children of high IQ parents should have exceptionally high IQs, but they don't. Instead their IQs regress towards the population mean. Likewise, we see people with exceptionally high IQs, but their parents show normal IQs. Yet IQ is cleary genetical in a sense that identical twins show exceptionally similar IQs. Finally, if "high IQ" alleles existed, they would have been identified by GWAS a long time ago already.

So what's going on? I think, high IQ is a result of some combination(s) of alleles, and the reason why non Africans have higher IQ on average is that these alleles are present in these populations in much higher frequency. It's a fact that non African populations are very homogenous (not that many alleles for different genes), and I suspect there was a genetic drift favoring particular alleles as people adopted (or died) in the colder climate.

tl:dr
I suspect high IQ is the result of combination(s) of multiple genes, and doubt some high IQ alleles (IQ genes) exist..

Originally posted by Threegirls I think we have established that levels of intelligence have for more to do with environment, experience, understanding and knowledge and less to do with colour.

Also a higher level of intelligence does not appear to be as beneficial for humanity as intelligence combined with other qualities of equal value

Seriously? Where was this established? Again, you continue to confuse intelligence with other traits. You are basically saying education has more to do with intelligence than genetics.

See this excerpt as it pertains particularly to America:

Non-Competitive Intelligence Levels (IQ points) Hinder African American Success Goals

*Scientists and Educators are beginning to realize that low intelligence is possibly due to genetic inheritance of historically low African American IQ levels... Some have suggested intermarriage with whites to raise black IQ levels, but many in both groups have found this to be a distasteful solution with fascist underpinnings. So, it is generally opposed. This leaves African Americans with a permanently low IQ with no hope of remediation, because IQ is not a function of education. The tragedy is found in the mere 17%-25%graduation rates in African American high school statistics as children with low IQ who are forced to act as though they have high IQ predictably fail, giving them feelings of low self-esteem and worthlessness, and may precipitate their later tendency toward violent criminal behavior.

With regards to Africa itself -

Specifically when addressing Africa as a continent there are individuals there who have a good deal of useful skills and traits for survival – hunting, fire making, etc.

However, the marked and documented lack of intelligence limits this survival to smaller groups – i.e. tribalism.
Large, successful, agrarian based, complex societies require complex infrastructure and organization to survive – these things require people with intelligence. There being a shortage of such individuals in Africa you can see how that is working out for them.

They are starving...

Blaming African social failures on white colonialism (as most do) is a poor argument because in most cases the infrastructure and organizations were left in place but lacking the intellect to manage them the continent has devolved into the mess it is now.

Non-Competitive Intelligence Levels (IQ points) Hinder African American Success Goals

According to the best-selling book on race and intelligence, TheBell Curve, as a group, African Americans have a average mean IQ of only 85 points as compared to Europeans who have an average mean IQ of 100-103points.

However, in some African countries, the Average Mean IQ Level is even lower—in fact, lower than 60 points on average. This occurs in many out of the way villages along the Zaire River Basin. Fifty percent of these Africans are either in the retarded or moron group.

Back in America, only 16% of African Americans have IQ's above 100 points, which is approximately what is required to achieve a mere D-/F+ in college. Graduation rates of a mere 32% at all-black Howard University bear this out, and Howard University is definitely not a difficult school to attend.

Originally posted by caladoneaI personally think this finding is ridiculous. There are (intelligent) and (not so intelligent) people from every race on planet earth...common sense and observation ..tells us that.

Yes, this is true – as represented by and in the book The Bell Curve.

However, I think the topic here is averages and that the average for blacks is one standard deviation lower than whites. Which is I believe what the scientist in the OP's post is saying.

This has been proven time and again by testing.

It may not be politically correct but it is factual.

reply to post by MrAnonUK

The 79-year-old geneticist

This guy is a racist in heart and bones.

I can't believe this piece made it to ATS really. I thought we were all about denying ignorance?

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia

Your diet CANNOT make you smarter.

Your intelligence is determined by your genetics.

Your maximum potential intelligence is determined by your genetics. - TRUE

Your diet CANNOT make you smarter. - TRUE

BUT your diet can certainly make you DUMBER. Just as malnutrition can stunt growth in the entire body it can also stunt the growth of the brain.

My mother suffered from disintegration of the Myelin Sheaths due to an inability to digest fats. Believe me the effect of no fat in the diet is NOT pretty.

Its perfectly reasonable to assume there may be some variance in frequency of alleles corresponding to intelligence between populations. Non-africans dispersed hundreds of thousands of years before there was a systematic extraction of the local population from the slave trade, thus the different groups faced different selection pressures. Having lived in the same location for millions of years, the variation between traits and reproductive success became so refined that the African gene pool turned more and more homogenous. Given the pressures they faced, there is no reason to believe increased intelligence had any survival value, aggression and athleticism sufficed to procure a mate. Conversely, those that explored new territory faced strong selection pressures for ingenious applications of thought in order to survive in new environments.

As a mere random fact of historical contingency, since those that left Africa were given the luxury of domesticable plants and animals (i.e. Eurasians weren't burdened with domesticating lions or elephants, they had horses and bovines), the Eurasian culture spread and as a side consequence that culture required intelligence as a means of optimizing reproductive fitness.

Now, however, we live in a society where there is little advantage to being intelligent other than for artificial reasons. We have a system in place that allows those who don't value intelligence as currency for reproductive fitness to yet live long enough to reach maturity, thus to ensure propagation of the germ plasm.

reply to post by crimvelvet
Being infected with T. Gondii in the brain can lead to increased intelligence in women

Let me guess..white scientist? I find this topic offensive and would ask the mods to remove it.

reply to post by uva3021

....Having lived in the same location for millions of years, the variation between traits and reproductive success became so refined that the African gene pool turned more and more homogenous.....

Nice theory but the data disagrees. There is greater genetic variation existing within the populations typically labeled Black and White than between Blacks and Whites.

I can not fnd the original article but I did find this. [Intra-group =subset of blacks and inter-group is between blacks and whites]

...There are no genetic characteristics possessed by all Blacks but not by non- Blacks; similarly, there is no gene or cluster of genes common to all Whites but not to non-Whites. One's race is not determined by a single gene or gene cluster, as is, for example, sickle cell anemia. Nor are races marked by important differences in gene frequencies, the rates of appearance of certain gene types. The data compiled by various scientists demonstrates, contrary to popular opinion, that intra-group differences exceed inter-group differences. That is, greater genetic variation exists within the populations typically labeled Black and White than between these populations. This finding refutes the supposition that racial divisions reflect fundamental genetic differences.... academic.udayton.edu...

And I also found this

Population Genetics of Modern Human Evolution

John H Relethford, State University of New York College at Oneonta, Oneonta, New York, USA
Rosalind M Harding, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK

....Should the entire continent of Africa be considered once race? If so, then we have the problem of dealing with some of the highest levels of population diversity observed in humans subsumed under one label...

only 10% of the total global variation... occurs between continental groups... 90% occurs within groups.... www.stats.ox.ac.uk...

The last brought up the question of Neanderthals.

If your heritage is non-African, you are part Neanderthal, according to a new study in the July issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution. Discovery News has been reporting on human/Neanderthal interbreeding for some time now, so this latest research confirms earlier findings.

..The ancestors of Neanderthals left Africa about 400,000 to 800,000 years ago. They evolved over the millennia mostly in what are now France, Spain, Germany and Russia. They went extinct, or were simply absorbed into the modern human population, about 30,000 years ago....

....Labuda and his colleagues identified a piece of DNA, called a haplotype, in the human X chromosome that seemed different. They questioned its origins.

Fast forward to 2010, when the Neanderthal genome was sequenced. The researchers could then compare the haplotype to the Neanderthal genome as well as to the DNA of existing humans. The scientists found that the sequence was present in people across all continents, except for sub-Saharan Africa, and including Australia.

"There is little doubt that this haplotype is present because of mating with our ancestors and Neanderthals," said Nick Patterson of the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard University.....

The modern human/Neanderthal combo likely benefitted our species, enabling it to survive in harsh, cold regions that Neanderthals previously had adapted to.

"Variability is very important for long-term survival of a species," Labuda concluded. "Every addition to the genome can be enriching."
news.discovery.com...

Nice try but you just helped prove us whites are part Neanderthal.... I alway thought my physics Prof looked like a Neanderthal throwback. He could have easily have posed for the paintings in my anthro text - seems I was RIGHT.

Originally posted by whyshouldI trustyou2619
Let me guess..white scientist? I find this topic offensive and would ask the mods to remove it.

Let me guess, you read the title and reacted emotionally without looking at any facts what so ever right?

It is common to fear the truth; however, if you should be interested in the pursuit of it you can start here ( Non-Competitive Intelligence Levels (IQ points) Hinder African American Success Goals ) for a synopsis of The Bell Curve, which is considered pretty main stream now despite the controversy it generated 15-20 years ago.

According to the best-selling book on race and intelligence, The Bell Curve, as a group, African Americans have an average mean IQ of only 85 points as compared to Europeans who have an average mean IQ of 100-103points.

However, in some African countries, the Average Mean IQ Level is even lower—in fact, lower than 60 points on average. This occurs in many out of the way villages along the Zaire River Basin. Fifty percent of these Africans are either in the retarded or moron group.

Back in America, only 16% of African Americans have IQ's above 100 points, which is approximately what is required to achieve a mere D-/F+ in college. Graduation rates of a mere 32% at all-black Howard University bear this out, and Howard University is definitely not a difficult school to attend.

I would suggest you just go ahead and read the whole study then come back with the “white scientist” accusations – you of course are entitled to an opinion. Because we all know that a black scientist cannot study white subjects and vice versa right? What is offensive is that you dismiss mainstream science with the accusation of racism because you don’t agree with or like the results.

Go get a PHD, get some grants and do an alternative study – until then I’ll go with science.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Why do we have to lump everybody into races that bear little to no genetic differences? Why not take people by who they are and what person they make themselves out to be. Do we choose how we are born, where we are born, to what circumstances we found ourselves in interms of culture, race and religion?

I am my own man, everybody here is in their own individualism. Why not accept that fact? Is it so hard? Or is ones life so depressive and lacking in anything that they have to group themselves to celebrate something?

It seems that people who are lacking personal power within themselves have this ability to lump others into groups which they then pretend are "less" than themselves. This way they can feel they are better, and therefore more entitled than another group of people.

It is called putting down someone else so you can feel good about yourself. It is a strange thing us humans seem to do, and I hope that someday, we can "get over ourselves".

IMO we have one race of humans on this planet, with many different cultures. This scientist, does not seem as intelligent as he thinks he is if he couldn't figure that out.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by whyshouldI trustyou2619

Let me guess..white scientist? I find this topic offensive and would ask the mods to remove it.

I find reality and Global Govenance very offensive but unfortunately we are stuck with it.

If you do not want to talk about genetic drift, and that is the actual subject matter then go visit another thread.

Heck the alleged "higher IQ" may eventually be traced to the additional of Neanderthal genes to the Eurasian genetics after they left the middle east!

Given Hybrid vigor this is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility.

Originally posted by caladonea
I personally think this finding is ridiculous. There are (intelligent) and (not so intelligent) people from every race on planet earth...common sense and observation ..tells us that.

Agreed.

Please tell former Florida state football player Myron Rolle of your findings, Mr. Scientist.

Black, college football player, and Rhodes Scholar. He was drafted by an NFL team; while he plans to play professional football, he also hopes to continue his studies and become a neurosurgeon.

For the record, I'm white.

Originally posted by amazed

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Why do we have to lump everybody into races that bear little to no genetic differences? Why not take people by who they are and what person they make themselves out to be. Do we choose how we are born, where we are born, to what circumstances we found ourselves in interms of culture, race and religion?

I am my own man, everybody here is in their own individualism. Why not accept that fact? Is it so hard? Or is ones life so depressive and lacking in anything that they have to group themselves to celebrate something?

It seems that people who are lacking personal power within themselves have this ability to lump others into groups which they then pretend are "less" than themselves. This way they can feel they are better, and therefore more entitled than another group of people.

It is called putting down someone else so you can feel good about yourself. It is a strange thing us humans seem to do, and I hope that someday, we can "get over ourselves".

IMO we have one race of humans on this planet, with many different cultures. This scientist, does not seem as intelligent as he thinks he is if he couldn't figure that out.

Harm None
Peace

Wow! Both your argument and that of Southern Guardian are straw men - the scientist never claimed he or any other race were "superior" to another in terms of their humanity. Neither have any of the other credible and mainstream scientific analysis of the measure of intelligence in the different races of humans.

To use this as an argument that we are all unique and special butterflies - each special in his/her own way to refute data is the very definition of a straw man argument. We are all different

Sure we are all different - that is what he is saying in effect. He, nor I nor anyone else derives personal power over someone by stating a measured fact. How does he stating these facts make him a racist?

As for lumping others into groups (you make it sound nefarious and criminal) is the way statistics are complied. Is it somehow racist to collect, analyze and cite statistics?

We are all humans...check
We are all different...check
We have genetic predisposition to certain physical traits...check
We have genetic predisposition to certain intelligence..check
There are statistical deviations both high and low in every measured statistic...check
There are some smart and dumb people in every race...check (he is addressing the mean)
Blacks score at least one standard deviation lower on IQ tests than whites...check
Average measured IQ in Africa is around 60..check

Facts are facts; sorry they make you feel uncomfortable.