Black people 'less intelligent' scientist claims

Black people 'less intelligent' scientist claims

www.timesonline.co.uk

The 79-year-old geneticist said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really.". He said he hoped that everyone was equal, but countered that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”.

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Hardly breaking news I realise, but certainly alternative and well worthy of a debate. I just have to ask, as I will again at the end. Please be very considerate when submitting responses, this should not excuse any hateful comments if you are a half intelligent person.

Although this is clearly a claim that should be considered extremely carefully, arguably never should have been spoken of in the public domain due to inevitable use to spread hate by shall we say, lesser minded racist individuals, it is indeed thought provoking.

As it is indeed a purely scientific observation and evolutionary issue it should remain so, it’s very interesting evolutionary topic in any event.

It would be particularly interesting to see how people theorise this to have occurred throughout evolution, particular to the extent that would lead an extremely respected and unquestionably extremely intelligent man to make such claims.

Colour is not the issue here, it’s purely regional. Colour is only used to denote peoples from a specific region and cultural background.

We all started out as white beings, (in my atheist belief system) early humans (hominids,) that originated and lived in equatorial Africa had a coat of hair that covered their entire body that protect them from the Sun’s harmful UV.

After hundreds of thousands of years our early primate ancestors started to evolve (evolutionary processes) and hair production diminished leaving their light skin exposed to the Sun’s rays, light skin that provided minimal protection. This therefore means a fair skinned person living near the equator is susceptible to several health risks, such as skin cancer (melanoma).

On the other hand, a person with darker skin meant greater protection and therefore had a greater survival advantage (through increased Melanin.) Thus, a process called Natural selection, filters out certain parental genes (those for lighter skin) in successive generations, producing offspring with slightly different characteristics and less genetic variability.

My beliefs (Atheism and evolutionary) are the reason I post this without any fear of ridicule and/or being labelled a racist person, as through my beliefs I do not feel it a need or necessity to possess a racist superiority complex of any sort.

The common consensus on this issue would raise an interesting discussion in my eyes, hopefully also leaving myself and others with an insight into how others believe regional evolution may decrease or increase a given peoples intellect.

I would like to close my initial input with a reminder to some... this is an observation by one scientist only (that I know of.) Any given differences I am sure are easily proven to be extremely small and not worthy of in sighting any hate or belief of superiority.

Please don’t make me regret raising this very sensitive issue, we’re all potentially above petty hate and maligned comments, please evaluate comments carefully before submitting them.


www.timesonline.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

I would not go so far as to say one race of people is somehow genetically more intelligent than another, but common sense tells us that talents and achievement have not been equally distributed across the globe and across different ethnic groups. This can be due to genetics, but can also be due to culture or envirnomental factors. Here are some examples.

For one reason or another, Black people seem to dominate certain sports like Sprinting and Basketball. Sure there are some fast non-Black people or good basketball players that are not Black, but if you watch the Olympics or the NBA, sprinting and basketball are dominated by Black people. I cannot say whether this is due to genetics, environment, social conditions, culture, or a combination of these factors. Nevertheless, the phenomenon is clearly present.

For one reason or another, Asian American Students students outperform other students. Sure you can find an Asian student with poor test scores, and non-Asian students who have excellent test scores, but on average, Asian students get the best test scores. Again, this can be genetics, it can be culture, it can be envirnoment, or a mixture of all these factors. Nevertheless, Asian students do better than non-Asian students.

reply to post by hotpinkurinalmint


I have always thought the major differences where cultural then anything else, however as you point out there are obvious and blatant differences between different races. I would say that genetics can make us look different, there is no reason it cannot make us think differently as well. Whether someone sees this as a claim to racial superiority I would say is not looking at this in a scientific way, and thoroughly narrow minded.

Whether or not this is true is certainly debatable, but is it worth debating? Casting one race/culture/class/sex as being more intelligent than another is degrading to the parties declared inferior. I think scientific research of this nature does little to unite our world and can do a wealth of damage by encouraging stereotyping and a sense of superiority. Can't scientific research be used for a higher purpose than this? ... I hope so.



[edit on 3/12/2009 by sad_eyed_lady]

reply to post by Rockpuck


It's also interesting to see in my eyes how a governments representative immediately comes out to claim that the words have no basis nor scientific foundations, I understand how they would not like this to be abused by narrow minded people but ultimately leaves me feeling once again that big brother doesn't give us feeble minded civilians enough credit.

I find that more insulting than the initial claims, almost suggest to me a distinct belief that we couldn't comprehend the conclusions. Which also makes it all the more fitting for this site as that is more than likely the very same reasoning for many of the UFO stories being kept away from the publics eyes.

The issue of the public not being able to handle certain issues without going into a state of massive hysteria has always angered me. God bless global communication and sites like ATS.

I've heard that even with cultural considerations taken into account, Asians still score better than any other group. Personally I don't care even if that is true, doesn't really affect me. So really, the scientist could have said "white people are less intelligent" and it might be true and I don't care. So to get worked up over this seems a bit childish, which some no doubt will. Statistics showing differences in height between groups aren't that controversial...

Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
Whether or not this is true is certainly debatable, but is it worth debating? Casting one race/culture/class/sex as being more intelligent than another is degrading to the parties declared inferior. I think scientific research of this nature does little to unite our world and can do a wealth of damage by encouraging stereotyping and a sense of superiority. Can't scientific research be used for a higher purpose than this? ... I hope so.



[edit on 3/12/2009 by sad_eyed_lady]

I think that is the wrong approach. Lets say it is 100% true. How would we change the education system to adapt to that knowledge? Wouldn't it be better to know about a possible difficulty than to ignore it? They've found that race has an impact on how drugs are used by the body, wouldn't it be nice to know if a drug reacts differently in an asian person vs. someone else? If you know of difference you can work to negate the difference.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by ghaleon12]

Genetically we are all pretty fairly different in thinking.

It doesn't take a scientist to say women think more in emotions then men, or that men have a better advantage when it comes to heavy lifting. ( Yes I know there are always exceptions and steroids).

But the tricky thing here is, while I still concur a little with the article here, but it all depends on the persons perception of intellegence, which last time I checked is still one of the most difficult things to measure.

So all in all nothing is definite on the subject of "Intelligence".

reply to post by sad_eyed_lady


I would have to agree, but I feel it is only true due to a portion of humanity being so narrow minded that they would use it to claim a superiority when clearly if genetics have produced any differences they would clearly be extremely small and insignificant.

It would indeed be idealistic though to believe this supposed knowledge could be open and not cause greater tensions amongst ethnic groups. A great shame, I wish everyone could fully comprehend such possible findings fully.

reply to post by MrAnonUK


OK so we have one 79 year old scientists "Opinion". I'm wondering if he is old enough to still be slightly racially bias? I wonder if we can come up with some collaborating evidence? This will be an interesting thread to follow if nothing else entertaining.

I don't doubt that every race has it's less than average intelligence percentage I doubt they can simply throw an entire race into the pit.

reply to post by ghaleon12


What you say brings me to think, perhaps it's. Actually scrap that, surely it is cultural upbringing and influences which actually have a far more significant bearing on ones intellect.

For example, two twins are born in Africa. One of the twins then immediately move to the United States with the other one remaining in, shall we say Ethopia. The twin that moved to the United states will clearly, well surely produce better grades given the same examination in a neutral environment.

But, say you have two white twins. One brought up in a traditionally Northern American white family and one adopted by a very traditionally more strict Japanese family. I believe the child raised by the traditionally stricter family would by probability have a far greater chance of producing higher grades in a neutral environment.

Which in conclusion would certainly lead me to believe, any given differences as the scientist in question states would be extremely small and certainly near impossible to detect perhaps?


Edit; with the case where I mention the two white children seperated into different cultured families, I am imagining they attend the same school and receive the same education.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by MrAnonUK]

This isn't really a new idea. In fact in the past most scientists thought this was true.

I don't think it has any relevance, look at all the great things black people have done. Whether they score lower on IQ tests or not, hasn't inhibited their abilities. I think this may be due to environment and stuff like that.

Which in conclusion would certainly lead me to believe, any given differences as the scientist in question states would be extremely small and certainly near impossible to detect perhaps?

I think that's fair. Environment, of course, is the most important factor. Wealth correlates to educational performance to a large degree, demonstrating the environmental factor. I also saw a thread on ATS showing that people from lower income areas tend to have less developed brains (I think that was the gist)...sort of makes you wonder how you could fix such an environment so that everyone could advance fairly.
Here's the thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 12-3-2009 by ghaleon12]

I know of intelligent blacks, I know of unintelligent ignorant whites... I know of asians that are completely bad at numeracy skills... and vice versa. Its not hard for us to go around and find a smart black person or hear of one... I certainly dont find it that hard... I dont find it hard to seek out those idiot "gangster" blacks and then again I dont have to go so far to find your local clan... burning the cross of our lord... So the theory that "groups are different in intelligence" is complete nonsense... its more so when folks dont take into account various circumstances that need be fairly applied.

This guy is 79year right? Well he sure as heck is an aging breed in his way of thinking.. and thankyou for that.

By the way if this guy was really the smart scientist as he proclaims to be or what not maybe he would have figured that the difference between the human groups such as africans and europeans are at most 0.01%. Whats more so our external differences such as skin and nose and hair texture account for 0.0012%. Did you know that there are more differences among human groups within themselves than to those other groups genetically? So its kind of obsolete dont ya think?

Now if this guy saw another man walk down the street with a 0.0088% genetic difference but his external features were the same as those of europeans, do you think he would treat that many any different from other whites?

We could say the term race is "obsolete". I still can recognize the diversity in humans... the differences... and at the same time see through these race tags.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by MrAnonUK


What's wrong with that? They are celebrating the birthdate of Charles Darwin this month for 200 years since his birth and 150 years since the publication of his famous book , Preservation of the Favoured Races.

Will this guy get a theory and a holiday too, he didn't say anything different than ole Charlie did in his book...

As a God fearing man I think it is abhorable that a human could think a race of other humans were any less or more than a any other race. But I aint an evolutionist and I don't claim we evolve from lower species, I claim Created us all equal, so this is appalling...

But I think it is fitting that we get some more Darwinism so close too his 200th Birthday - Happy Birthday Charlie, Love the mark you left on mankind, NOT!

reply to post by ghaleon12


I was considering asking if you would mind trying to dig that up for me but didn't want to bother you too much.

Thanks for that mate, should make interesting reading.

Another thought, why can there be disparities between races on a lot of things, but if you say that their is an intelligence difference, people tend to freak out for a lack of better words. Life span differences, height differences, ect. not that big a deal. How important is intelligence really, isn't it on the same level as physical attractiveness or some other attribute? What impact does it have to the purpose of life, none really.

As a God fearing man I think it is abhorable that a human could think a race of other humans were any less or more than a any other race. But I aint an evolutionist and I don't claim we evolve from lower species, I claim Created us all equal, so this is appalling...

"any less or more". So that applies to intelligence, but what about height or some other attribute. Does intelligence have something to do with God? I wouldn't say so, and any attribute that doesn't contribute to that search has no value. I'm not saying I hold any view, but just putting it out their as it is sort of interesting how we value and hold in high esteem the going-ons of the grey matter, perhaps too much so?

[edit on 12-3-2009 by ghaleon12]

I, as a non-black, in my --experience-- with black persons, have seen this common tendency from them to emotionally-negatively -react- . I know that I have emotionally negatively reacted to stuff in these chat forums, but those do not represent this (me) Super Avoidant chicken***t nerd in real life. All of my experiences in 'The System' if you will, i.e. institutions such as the military, hospitals, social work, social security, post offices, etc. etc. in which I encountered incompetence and unprofessionalism, have (well, you know.....) and I have always ernestly wondered if it was encultured. Take one of those unhappy persons I encountered, and, if he/she was raised up by for example, 'Ward and June Cleaver'-type of parents, would that individual be TOTALLY DIFFERENT? Or still be susceptible to those tendencies? I seriously, seriously, have always wished I could know the answer to that.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
I would not go so far as to say one race of people is somehow genetically
For one reason or another, Black people seem to dominate certain sports like Sprinting and Basketball. Sure there are some fast non-Black people or good basketball players that are not Black, but if you watch the Olympics or the NBA, sprinting and basketball are dominated by Black people. I cannot say whether this is due to genetics, environment, social conditions, culture, or a combination of these factors. Nevertheless, the phenomenon is clearly present.

For the most part that's because of two things
1. They have been nomadic in Africa for a very long time and have become well adapted to hunting on the savanah aka running fast and having light muscle.
2. They were bred to be strong and fast during the time that they were slaves.

Same reason many white people are huge, their ancestors had to wield big axes and swords and survive harsh winters. For the most part whites aren't as atheletic because we don't need to be and haven't need to be for quite some time. We've become adept at making other people/things/machines/animals do the work for us.
This is where the "intelligence" comes into play. Intelligence is such a hard thing to measure because it's an abstract concept.
(sweeping generalities ahead so bear with me)
White people are great at building things, planning, and overall controlling stuff. Over the years we got really good at making war and building citys, some of us are pretty decent thinkers as well.
Black people (remember, very broad generalities) often don't think about "deep" things as much as we do, they're great for quick tasks and they can usually learn anything really really fast. I'm speaking strictly from my experience here. They have a really strong cultural tie usually and they often let this define them.

I'm not saying ANY of this is a good or bad thing, it's simply unbiased observation.

Why do we have to lump everybody into races that bear little to no genetic differences? Why not take people by who they are and what person they make themselves out to be. Do we choose how we are born, where we are born, to what circumstances we found ourselves in interms of culture, race and religion?

I am my own man, everybody here is in their own individualism. Why not accept that fact? Is it so hard? Or is ones life so depressive and lacking in anything that they have to group themselves to celebrate something?